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Lycanthropy in Glorantha


Steve3742

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Does anybody know what the deal is with lycanthropy in RQ? In RQ II, we had four different types of lycanthrope (Bearwalkers, Tiger Sons, Tusk Brothers and Wolfrunners) and a cult was even written up for one of them (Sons of the Tiger in some issue of Different Worlds). They seemed to be a separate class, tainted (slightly) by chaos, invulnerable to normal weapons and forced to change into beast shape one night a week.  But by RQ III, we found that the Wolfrunners were Telmori Hsunchen, who could turn into wolves with rune magic, but had been cursed by Gbaji to turn involuntarily one day a week, in return for gaining invulnerability to non rune-metal attacks and suchlike. The implication (though it was never actually stated) was that the other lycanthropes seen in RQ II - Tusk Brothers, Bearwalkers, Tiger Sons - were now just Hsunchen, non-cursed, but able to assume beast shape via Rune Magic, but not gain any other lycanthropic traits, like invulnerability to normal weapons. Lycanthropy as such didn't seem to exist outside of the Telmori. But the supplement that gave most of this info - Dorastor - also had a were-stegasaurus in it. With invulnerability to normal weapons. So, are there any lycanthropes in Glorantha (outside the Telmori, that is)?

Edited by Steve3742
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I'd assume any Hsunchen or other shapeshifter could potentially be infected with the same Chaos magics Nyaslor used to empower the Telmori of Dragon Pass. I'm doubtful such powers would be known outside of Chaos strongholds like Dorastor though.

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3 hours ago, Steve3742 said:

Does anybody know what the deal is with lycanthropy in RQ? In RQ II, we had four different types of lycanthrope (Bearwalkers, Tiger Sons, Tusk Brothers and Wolfrunners) and a cult was even written up for one of them (Sons of the Tiger in some issue of Different Worlds). They seemed to be a separate class, tainted (slightly) by chaos, invulnerable to normal weapons and forced to change into beast shape one night a week.  But by RQ III, we found that the Wolfrunners were Telmori Hsunchen, who could turn into wolves with rune magic, but had been cursed by Gbaji to turn involuntarily one day a week, in return for gaining invulnerability to non rune-metal attacks and suchlike. The implication (though it was never actually stated) was that the other lycanthropes seen in RQ II - Tusk Brothers, Bearwalkers, Tiger Sons - were now just Hsunchen, non-cursed, but able to assume beast shape via Rune Magic, but not gain any other lycanthropic traits, like invulnerability to normal weapons. Lycanthropy as such didn't seem to exist outside of the Telmori. But the supplement that gave most of this info - Dorastor - also had a were-stegasaurus in it. With invulnerability to normal weapons. So, are there any lycanthropes in Glorantha (outside the Telmori, that is)?

There are the Hsunchen who turn into (are) beasts. But that is cult magic, not traditional lycanthropy. Only the Telmori "involuntarily" transform.

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I am not quite sure whether these lycanthrope rules are in RQ2 because they are Gloranthan, or because they were a staple of rpgs. The RQ2 text surely does make an attempt to fit the trope into the setting. Speaking of genes is not what I expect in a Gloranthan context, really.

If all lycanthrope shape changers are tainted by Chaos, then that's what Rastagar's heirs to the Kodigvari tribal kingship wielded when Heort steered his family group through the Greater Darkness, and Gbaji's (really Nysalor's) gift to the Telmori was to make his followers among the Telmori adopt these traits like the heirs of Rastagar had. Talor's curse removed Nysalor's shelter from involuntary transformation and imposed their Wildday madness.

RQG bestiary doesn't have a general entry for lycanthropes any more (although there is a suggestion that certain animal spirits might be used to curse enemies (or bless zealot followers) into lycanthropy, presumably of variable beast association, hearkening back to the RQ2 types). Given that the term literally translates as wolf-man, these other types are not exactly ruled in yet, but the wider definition of man-beast shapechangers who undergo a mandatory change on certain nights (and/or days) probably still applies. After all, from Jeff's recollections I take it that tusk brothers are an integral part of his personal Glorantha experience.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are the Hsunchen who turn into (are) beasts. But that is cult magic, not traditional lycanthropy. Only the Telmori "involuntarily" transform.

Which is kind of what I'd thought. But the were-stegasaurus in Dorastor? I suppose we can write that off as just one of Dorastor's chaotic oddities.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I am not quite sure whether these lycanthrope rules are in RQ2 because they are Gloranthan, or because they were a staple of rpgs.

The latter. A lot of the RQ II bestiary is like that, there's undead there that seem to follow D&D ideas, specifically Mummies, who don't really fin into Glorantha. Though, I believe, the Revenants of the Bestiary are basically mummies (and it's hinted that Zorak Zoran has a ritual for creating them - or at least some Troll god as the example given is a troll.)

Mummies and werewolves were both in RQ III (only werewolves, no others), but the Genertela supplement introduced Hsunchen and, without actually saying so, gave the strong impression that these were what lycanthropes were now and that the Telmori were unusual in that they had a chaos curse which forced involuntary change once a week and made them invulnerable to normal weapons - traits that had previously belonged to all lycanthropes. None of this was helped by RQ III's attempt to be generic fantasy rules, making it hard sometimes to work out what applied to Glorantha and what didn't.

Still, it's good to know the official position, which I'm assuming is Jeff's, above. Pity about the Sons of the Tiger cult, though, I kind of liked it. Maybe the Hsa Hsunchen have something similar.

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Yeah. I disliked the idea of the Hsunchen originally because only Priests could shapechange. but, with the new Rune Magic rules, Initiates can shapechange too, albeit they need a massive 9 points (!) of Rune Magic to do so and they can only do so on Wilddays, and only for an hour. I'm still not keen on such restrictions on their shapechanging.

My take on Hsunchen is that there's been a union between pack and tribe for as long back as the Tribal Shamans know of. Hsunchen think of their four legged compatriots as members of their tribe and this is reciprocated. There's probably a taboo about eating their tribal animal meat for this reason. And... how can I put this delicately? Shapechanging from man to wolf (say) allows a closer communication with the wolf, a closer empathy with the wolf, even if its only for an hour a week. Sometimes, things might get... intimate. They probably wouldn't view it as bestiality (though there might still be a taboo against it). Given the magical nature of Glorantha, children/cubs might result. I don't know whether they'd be wolf, human or a blend of the two. Possibly they'd be natural shapeshifters. But, after generations of this, the humans Hsunchen would start to take on wolf-like feature, longer canines, sharper senses, etc. And the wolf Hsunchen would start to take on human attributes, become more intelligent.

So it's entirely natural that the Rathori would hibernate in winter - they have bear DNA. And Hsunchen should probably also have characteristics and abilities that vary from the human norm, just a bit, in the direction of their tribal animal. Who, in return, might gain a limited amount of intelligence (as the Telmori Dire Wolves have). And human Hsunchen would be able to communicate with their animals, albeit only to the limited amount that animals can communicate with each other. (Although, given that Telmori Dire Woles have INT and most Philosophies of Language or Knowledge say that sentient intelligence and Language go together, we are, perhaps, justified in giving Telmori Dire Wolves a language and allowing full communication between the two. The language need not be all vocal, though, a lot could be communicated with a sort of LSL (Lupine Sign Language) or USL for Bearwalkers. And Humans might have problems using their mouths to make the sounds.)

So, not lycanthropes in the traditional sense. I'd personally like them to be able to shapechange more often for less cost (8-9 points of Rune Magic! And only on Wildday). Perhaps this is an ability that can be woken with a heroquest or something, but only for them as they have bear/wolf/tiger/whatever DNA

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On 3/27/2019 at 4:30 AM, Steve3742 said:

Does anybody know what the deal is with lycanthropy in RQ? In RQ II, we had four different types of lycanthrope (Bearwalkers, Tiger Sons, Tusk Brothers and Wolfrunners) and a cult was even written up for one of them (Sons of the Tiger in some issue of Different Worlds). They seemed to be a separate class, tainted (slightly) by chaos, invulnerable to normal weapons and forced to change into beast shape one night a week. 

I just assume that all Hsunchen folk have a very few sacred people who can transform without magic, who are effectively RQ2-style lycanthropes. The Gateway Bestiary also had Shark Men and, although Gateway, have been used in many Gloranthan campaigns.

Only Telmori are forced to change once a week, due to being cursed by the Red Moon. Otyher lycanthripes are not touched by Chaos, for example there were some Tiger Sons who worshipped Zorak Zoran, a cult not noted for its tolerance of Chaos. Shark Men are noted as being Chaotic, though, so it depends on the type.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Only Telmori are forced to change once a week, due to being cursed by the Red Moon.

Necessary nitpick: The Telmori were cursed by Talor the Laughing Warrior in or around 450 ST, when there was no such thing as a red moon. It is a coincidence that the full moon face of the Red Moon coincides with Wildday in Dragon Pass. In Fronela, the day of the week would be two or three days remote. (Don't ask me in which direction, though - it is hard enough to remember to put the clock an hour forward tonight...)

57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Otyher lycanthripes are not touched by Chaos, for example there were some Tiger Sons who worshipped Zorak Zoran, a cult not noted for its tolerance of Chaos. Shark Men are noted as being Chaotic, though, so it depends on the type.

The Zorak Zoran cult has no qualms about using cave trolls, so its tolerance to similar Chaos as in lycanthropes should be about as high. ZZ hates pretty much everything that opposes him, and tolerates what aids him.

Calling such powers chaotic and Humakti geases not is possibly a disservice. Both are some expression of mysticism, contact with forces from outside of this world.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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