RQ Magic Vs. Game Tropes

[svensson]

A question for the Hive Mind...

How would you present RQ magics to someone who's only known the fantasy tropes? Disruption can take the place of Magic Missile, for example, especially when you explain just how much deadlier the spell is in a world without 150 hit point uber-Gawdz running around.

But how would you assemble a 'Wizard' [aka unarmored professional academic spellcaster] for an RQ campaign for someone whose only experience is DnD? Or is this a question best left until the Sorcery Sourcebook [tm, pat. pend.] comes out?

[RHW]

I usually start with what RQ is instead of trying to help people build things that don't fit from other systems/novels.

"In RQ there are no classes. There are no wizards or paladins or rogues. Your character has a collection of skills they can use, any skill you want really. Everyone can cast magic, though it's not as powerful as in DnD. Think of your heroes as more like Conan. He's sneaky, but he's not a rogue. He's charming but he's not a bard or a paladin. He's strong, but he's more than just a fighter. He has skills! What skills do you want? Your character can also know a few cools spells that can, for example, hurt people from a distance, confuse them, add to your armor or make your sword hit harder or heal yourself and your friends. What spells would you like your character to have?"

Then I guide them toward a previous XP and cult that fits the skills/spells they want.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

How would you present RQ magics to someone who's only known the fantasy tropes? Disruption can take the place of Magic Missile, for example, especially when you explain just how much deadlier the spell is in a world without 150 hit point uber-Gawdz running around.

 

As RHW says start with what it is. 

The world is myth personified.

The sun is a god who died in a great conflagration and was brought back to life and thus can only exist for half of time and travels the cestestial sphere by day and enters and travels hell by night, We worship the gods of air, storm  and middle sky and thus we are willful and free— these gods took life from the sun and realizing their error they set forth on the Lightbringers' Quest to retrieve him from hell and place him back in the sky. All over a flat earth that reaches down to the roots of mountains into hell an floats on all the world's waters. All is god, spirit, and rune,

The conflagration known as the God's War unmade reality it was so great—all who survived created the great compromise woven into a mystical web called time by the spider. The gods and the dead would leave the mortal realms to those who hold the elemental and form runes especially the beast and man runes. Thus the creek that sustains us, our crops and animals—is a great spirit with the power of the rune of elemental water We make treaty with her once a year at a sacred time.Via communication and worship of gods we gain control of Runes and thus magics, simple and complex that alter the world a little; to fix a wheel or make an arrow fly true to great magics which will help the fertility of your crops, families ands animals.  Once a year we hold great rituals that remake the Great Compromise and reset time for the next year. Our magics are both great and small but all come from the runes.

As an intro this lets the players know that they are not in Kansas, and that magic interweaves all that they do.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Pentallion]

Give them a shaman.  3 spell barrages and a multispell 2 later when he is slinging aroung multi godawful disrupts he will think he is a dnd wizard gawd.

When he starts power within spel barrage multispelling he will know he is a god.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Pentallion

[Joerg]

The Gloranthan academic sorcerer doesn't enter combat without a handful of well-armed bodyguards. If you play with old-style henchmen, the trope is fulfilled. If you play with just the individual, combat sucks major league.

Protective spells are standard for sorcerers entering risky environments, but sorcerous damage (or magic) protection has the same disadvantage as dodging - it doesn't absorb damage, but negates all or nothing. (Which should be familiar to players of D&D and related games, though).

What are the rules for parrying hits aimed at your protegee if you are a bodyguard? Shield interception sounds like a somewhat realistic course of action, but what I have seen in the rules only affects the shield-bearer.

[Crel]

I've found comparing cults to classes useful. It's super inexact and inaccurate, but describing Uroxi as "really angry Paladins" gets the job done for some players. Humakt is easy-access as "Undead bad, m'kay?" Sorcerers are your wizards (and while it's not trope-comparison, for me the best way to express that distinction is emphasizing that RuneQuest sorcery lets you cast spells lasting years). Chalana Arroy is healbot with extra restrictions. Orlanth is tricky to compare, but saying "basically cleric of Thor/Zeus" is good enough to get the general idea.

I think an important part of these sorts of comparisons is trying to analogically define both Who They Are and What They Can Do. Uroxi act vaguely like zealous paladins, but What They Can Do feels more barbarian/berserker, for example.  

[RHW]

 

56 minutes ago, Crel said:

I've found comparing cults to classes useful. It's super inexact and inaccurate, but describing Uroxi as "really angry Paladins" gets the job done for some players. Humakt is easy-access as "Undead bad, m'kay?" Sorcerers are your wizards (and while it's not trope-comparison, for me the best way to express that distinction is emphasizing that RuneQuest sorcery lets you cast spells lasting years). Chalana Arroy is healbot with extra restrictions. Orlanth is tricky to compare, but saying "basically cleric of Thor/Zeus" is good enough to get the general idea.

Paladin is more Humakt imo, Lawful Neutral Paladin of the Death God. Or Yelmalio

Barbarian - Storm Bull, Zorak Zoran, Babeestor Gor

Healing Cleric - Chalana Arroy (can’t fight), Ernalda, Xiola Umbar

Rogue - Orlanth, Yinkin, Lanbril or Eurmal

Monk - Path of Immenent Mastery, Yinkin

Storm Cleric - Orlanth

Sun Cleric - Yelm

Fighter (Melee) - Humakt, Orlanth, Yelmalio, Kyger Litor

Fighter (Ranged) - Foundchild, Orlanth, Aldrya

Pet Caster - Ernalda, Shaman, Kyger Litor

Shapeshifter Druid - Yinkin, Odayla, Telmori

Buffer -  Issaries, Mastakos

Faceman - Issaries, Yinkin, Ernalda (Every party needs a faceman)

Sage - Lhankor Mhy 

Edited March 29, 2019 by RHW

[GianniVacca]

11 hours ago, svensson said:

A question for the Hive Mind...

How would you present RQ magics to someone who's only known the fantasy tropes? Disruption can take the place of Magic Missile, for example, especially when you explain just how much deadlier the spell is in a world without 150 hit point uber-Gawdz running around.

But how would you assemble a 'Wizard' [aka unarmored professional academic spellcaster] for an RQ campaign for someone whose only experience is DnD? Or is this a question best left until the Sorcery Sourcebook [tm, pat. pend.] comes out?

Don't want to sound aggressive or whatever, but what you call 'fantasy tropes' are actually D&D tropes. I have read heaps of fantasy novels and wizards are often solitary figures versed in the occult --their spell-casting ability often rumour rather than reality-- rather than mediaeval fireball-casting T-55s.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

Don't want to sound aggressive or whatever, but what you call 'fantasy tropes' are actually D&D tropes. I have read heaps of fantasy novels and wizards are often solitary figures versed in the occult --their spell-casting ability often rumour rather than reality-- rather than mediaeval fireball-casting T-55s.

Thanks GianniVacca for pointing that out, in my usual meandering way, I meant what you said, just used a  frack of a lot more words... doh!  As you can see,  to my mind  a fantasy trope is a wee bit different than a D&D trope. Apologies for my misunderstanding, svensson.

Cheers

[Mechashef]

I know a D&D player who when experiencing RQ declared that all RQ characters are Clerics/Paladins.

 

Obviously it isn't true (and I have discussed it at some length with him) and depending on which versions of RQ and D&D you look at there are more options available, but his point is that the default RQ character is someone who obtains magic from their God and either has a martial focus (Rune Lord/Paladin) or a non-martial focus (Rune Priest/Cleric).

 

Sure there are sorcerers (a type of wizard) but only from RQ3 onwards and they are often sidelined and always feel like they have been begrudgingly bolted on to the system.

 

Shamans are different but he sees them as a Witch Doctor type of cleric.

 

So his view point of view is that instead of being classless, RQ is mainly a game of 2 closely related classes (Cleric/Paladin).  

 

He does enjoy playing occasionally and does really like how the Clerics/Paladins of RQ have much more variety than the Clerics/Paladins of D&D.

 

[svensson]

OK, let's all just accept that DnD is the elephant in the room, but it isn't the only game with fireballs and such. Most fantasy games roll with the tropes that DnD pioneered... the '4 food groups' of party composition [tank, blaster, healer, skill monkey /stealth] for just one example. Games as different as L5R and WHFRPG  use them and that's what the gamer public has come to expect.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

57 minutes ago, svensson said:

OK, let's all just accept that DnD is the elephant in the room, but it isn't the only game with fireballs and such. Most fantasy games roll with the tropes that DnD pioneered... the '4 food groups' of party composition [tank, blaster, healer, skill monkey /stealth] for just one example. Games as different as L5R and WHFRPG  use them and that's what the gamer public has come to expect.

 

Totally. I wish I didn't have to ever use it in a comparison but a 6 metric tonne elephant it is. Easy targets suck. and make one lazy. 

[soltakss]

On 3/29/2019 at 5:36 AM, Crel said:

I've found comparing cults to classes useful. It's super inexact and inaccurate, but describing Uroxi as "really angry Paladins" gets the job done for some players. Humakt is easy-access as "Undead bad, m'kay?" Sorcerers are your wizards (and while it's not trope-comparison, for me the best way to express that distinction is emphasizing that RuneQuest sorcery lets you cast spells lasting years). Chalana Arroy is healbot with extra restrictions. Orlanth is tricky to compare, but saying "basically cleric of Thor/Zeus" is good enough to get the general idea.

13th Age Glorantha is very useful in this respect, as you can easily show various Cults as variations on Classes. Just extract the information and use in RQ.

[Psullie]

I usually start by saying that everyone can cast spells, everyone can swing a sword and everyone can wear armour. Its what you DO that defines your role not what your ARE. Likewise there is no good or or evil and being part of a cult or two is essential. And finally, your character does not exist in isolation - he/she has dependencies, responsibilities and community obligations. 

[pachristian]

D&D tropes clobber players in ways other than spell casting. I just had a play say he would not play in Glorantha again: Because he doesn't like that Elves are intelligent plants and Dwarves don't fit his mental stereotype. He insists he likes the game he's been in, but just can't handle the differences between Glorantha and his stereotype LOTR-derived game world. I've known people to refuse to play RuneQuest "because it has ducks". 

Your best bet for the person who wants to play a "wizard" or a "ranger" or whatever trope they like, is find out what the like about the trope, then point them in the direction of runes and a cult  that gives them what they want. Then run the game so they feel useful. Some will adapt, some won't.

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, pachristian said:

D&D tropes clobber players in ways other than spell casting. I just had a play say he would not play in Glorantha again: Because he doesn't like that Elves are intelligent plants and Dwarves don't fit his mental stereotype. He insists he likes the game he's been in, but just can't handle the differences between Glorantha and his stereotype LOTR-derived game world. I've known people to refuse to play RuneQuest "because it has ducks". 

What I tend to do is to downplay that kind of thing.

Sure, Elves are Aldryami and are intelligent plants, but to me they look like classical elves, but perhaps with leaves for hair. I don;t play them as some gnarled woody thing, unless the scenario calls for it. Similarly, I play RQ Dwarves as Mostali, but more as 1970s Trade Unionist stereotypes, with a bit of Pratchett in there (Mostali are Mostali at home, but when they are out and about they let their hair down). 

At some point, I'll throw in something Aldryami that reinforces them as being plants, but only when the Players are comfortable. Similarly, Mostali might do something strange, or the PCs might meet a Mostali Construct, or even a True Mostali. 

But, I don't have a talking bush meet the PCs in the first session.

 

[styopa]

On 3/29/2019 at 9:16 AM, GianniVacca said:

Don't want to sound aggressive or whatever, but what you call 'fantasy tropes' are actually D&D tropes. 

As much as some might like to resist it, D&D is the cultural default, trope setting for frpgs.

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, styopa said:

As much as some might like to resist it, D&D is the cultural default, trope setting for frpgs.

It really depends on which culture you are talking to. I don't mean to be funny, but when you look at an international audience, the D&D tropes are not always the main trope setting for frpgs. There are even some parts of the gaming world where Call of Cthulhu is the cultural default for frpgs!

On 3/30/2019 at 4:54 PM, pachristian said:

D&D tropes clobber players in ways other than spell casting. I just had a play say he would not play in Glorantha again: Because he doesn't like that Elves are intelligent plants and Dwarves don't fit his mental stereotype. He insists he likes the game he's been in, but just can't handle the differences between Glorantha and his stereotype LOTR-derived game world. I've known people to refuse to play RuneQuest "because it has ducks". 

Your best bet for the person who wants to play a "wizard" or a "ranger" or whatever trope they like, is find out what the like about the trope, then point them in the direction of runes and a cult  that gives them what they want. Then run the game so they feel useful. Some will adapt, some won't.

If people don't want to play in Glorantha because it is not to their taste, that's fine. Some people only want to play according to the tropes of a single genre (for example, my 9-year old son wants everything to follow the tropes of Minecraft). 

[Oracle]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

As much as some might like to resist it, D&D is the cultural default, trope setting for frpgs.

In fact I would say, the trope setting for FRPGs is The Lord of Rings, which is also the role template for a lot of other fantasy novels and games - and especially for D&D, which was the first FRPG being published. But that's one of the reasons, why I like Glorantha so much, because it is such a change compared to all the copies.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Oracle

[Atgxtg]

47 minutes ago, Oracle said:

In fact I would say, the trope setting for FRPGs is The Lord of Rings, which is also the role template for a lot of other fantasy novels and games - and especially for D&D, which was the first FRPG being published. But that's one of the reasons, why I like Glorantha so much, because it is such a change compared to all the copies.

Probably a mix of LotR and D&D. I've had some long term D&D players get culture shock when playing in Middle Earth and discovering that some things are different. High Elves are the ones with the deep knowledge, not the grey elves. The Noldo are the greatest smiths in the world, not the drarves, and so on. The funny bit is some players have started to say how "that's wrong" only to have it pointed out to them that Tolkien did it first and that D&D is where things got changed, not the other way around.

But the LotR/D&D hybrid is often the assumed template for a FRPG world. 

There are actually many more ways to do fantasy though. 

On 3/28/2019 at 10:32 PM, svensson said:

A question for the Hive Mind...

How would you present RQ magics to someone who's only known the fantasy tropes? Disruption can take the place of Magic Missile, for example, especially when you explain just how much deadlier the spell is in a world without 150 hit point uber-Gawdz running around.

I'd try to decibe what itis in context of the world and not try as a D&D analogue. Not out of a dislike for D&D but because saying that "it's like magic missile" or some such can actually mess the player up later on when a RQ spell doesn't work quite like a similar D&D spell. Since is a golden exmple. I've seen D&D players try to use it in RQ2 like a D&D silence spell, and it just doesn't work that way.  

On 3/28/2019 at 10:32 PM, svensson said:

But how would you assemble a 'Wizard' [aka unarmored professional academic spellcaster] for an RQ campaign for someone whose only experience is DnD? Or is this a question best left until the Sorcery Sourcebook [tm, pat. pend.] comes out?

I wouldn't do it. At least not without explaining to the player that it won't work the way he expects it to. I'd strongly suggest that the player get more familiar with the game and the magic system before tying to go full wizard. Most D&D players are going to expect wizards to be able to fireball a room and such, and that sort of stuff isn't the sort of thing that a player character will be able to pull off for quite some time, and will take a ton of magic points to do. 

 

I think you either need to explain to the players that this isn't D&D and things don't work the same way, or you'll have very disappointed players when things don't work out according to thier expectations. It will be a lot like putting you in a world where 2+2=3. It won't make sense and you won't know why.

 

[soltakss]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:32 AM, svensson said:

How would you present RQ magics to someone who's only known the fantasy tropes? Disruption can take the place of Magic Missile, for example, especially when you explain just how much deadlier the spell is in a world without 150 hit point uber-Gawdz running around.

I wouldn't compare spell with spell, for instance Disruption to Magic Missile.

Instead, I'd go with the magic systems:

• Magic is generally personal and doesn't usually affect large areas.
• Spirit Magic is minor magic that most people have access to.
• Rune Magic comes from the Gods and Goddesses, so you have to initiate in a cult to use it. Each Cult has its own spells that are not normally available to other Cults, so you can specialise by joining a Cult. Many Cults have Spirit Magic that is only available through the Cult. Sorcery is powerful magic that takes years of study.
• Sorcerers can be independent or can belong to Sorcery Schools or Religions. Each Sorcery School or Religion has its own spells, but these have not yet been detailed.

 

What i find useful is to produce a one-page summary, with 1 spell on each line, summarising what the spells do. That is useful in many cases and you can always refer to the rulebook if you need more detail.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Oracle said:

In fact I would say, the trope setting for FRPGs is The Lord of Rings, which is also the role template for a lot of other fantasy novels and games - and especially for D&D, which was the first FRPG being published. But that's one of the reasons, why I like Glorantha so much, because it is such a change compared to all the copies.

I've seen that claim all over, but then where are the wizards unable to wield a sword? Gandalf is a master of his sword.

The cleric of the anonymous deity owes a lot to Bishop Odo of the Bayeux tapestry fame.

D&D is a mash-up of numerous tropes. The entire thief guild trope has been lifted from Lhankmar, where it was introduced as a paradoxical institution.

The main Middle Earth contribution to D&D are the halflings, dwarves and the seed for various goblin types, including the orc and the half-orc. The elves crept in via Middle Earth pastiches rather than directly, and inherit from other sources like Poul Anderson's Sword and the Stone, too.

I usually argue that the Brithini are a rather good parallel for Tolkien's high elves, in a process of parallel evolution - immortal island in the west, and all that stuff. Which leaves the aldryami as a diminutive version of ents.
 

Tunnels and Trolls uses the same races as the Fellowship of the Ring, too. Were halflings a playable race in OD&D, or did T&T start the halfling madness?

IMO the most playable dwarves and elves are the ones from Midkemia, another early rpg setting which became influential through Raymond Feist's novels starting with Magician. It notably made do without orcs and hobbits.

The Warhammer skirmish rules with their takes on the Tolkien monsters probably were as influential. The later whimsical Europe WHFRP setting took that lead minis inspired setting to a new direction.

 

When it comes to modern influences, I guess Warcraft is at least as great a carrier of memes as is D&D, and to me it looks more like it inherited from fantasy skirmish games like Warhammer than straight from the D&D memes. The player base of such computer games is easily as big as that of D&D.

Baldur's Gate has of course infected the computer "role playing" game world with D&Disms. Elder Scrolls with its shared RQ design DNA might be a better base to jump off than D&D.

[Mechashef]

I was surprised to learn that Tolkien's elves were called gnomes in his earlier writings, and also seem to grow in size as he reimagined them as elves.

 

And Gandalf can call himself a wizard if he wants but he is really a demigod or and "angel".  While there may be an argument for Gandalf the Grey being a wizard, Gandalf the White is definitely not. 

 

Middle Earth's approach to magic is probably more alien to D&D than RQ's approach is.

 

[The God Learner]

4 hours ago, Oracle said:

In fact I would say, the trope setting for FRPGs is The Lord of Rings, which is also the role template for a lot of other fantasy novels and games - and especially for D&D, which was the first FRPG being published.

Note that the literary sources of D&D are far broader than LOTR, and not only because of the threat of lawsuits. Vance, Leiber, Burroughs, Howard, Anderson, and so on. Have a look at the books in Appendix N for a gateway drug of sorts; there is far worse to read. (http://digital-eel.com/blog/ADnD_reading_list.htm) You will find the origins of forgetting spells, the Assassins Guild, regenerating green trolls and much more.

[Oracle]

3 hours ago, The God Learner said:

Note that the literary sources of D&D are far broader than LOTR, and not only because of the threat of lawsuits. Vance, Leiber, Burroughs, Howard, Anderson, and so on. Have a look at the books in Appendix N for a gateway drug of sorts; there is far worse to read. (http://digital-eel.com/blog/ADnD_reading_list.htm) You will find the origins of forgetting spells, the Assassins Guild, regenerating green trolls and much more.

Yes, that's probably right. I guess my view stems from the fact, that Lord of the Rings was my first fantasy novel, which impressed me very much (at an age, when I could really impressed still), and afterwards I found at least bits and pieces of it again and again and again ... not the least in D&D. But yes, looking at it with a bit more distance, there are a lot more influences that just LOTR.