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Spirit World and Magic


Ufnal

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9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Under the guidance of a shaman, I've taken PC's into the Spirit Plane. One transformed from a Yinkini into a Odaylan because she discovered she really had an inner bear spirit.

That kind of thing really works as a Spirit Quest, to awaken a totem or make an inner journey of discovery. I could see Animists doing similar Quests to awaken powers, as they become higher level in Traditions or encounter new Spirits.

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The issue over to what degree the mundane and spiritual or god planes overlap was made earlier, and I just wanted to add something from RW animism.

As you probably know, the God Time concept in Glorantha is an adapted version of the Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime concept. This concept more or less states that the shape of the physical landscape is due to the acts of sapient entities of great power, and that these events continually occur and reoccur outside the normal realms of linear time.

A person can partake in this experience by traveling along so-called "songlines", which are paths or tracks which are memorized through songs that commemorate the events that produced the various landmarks (ie. the map of the landscape is a lyrical narrative, navigation is mnemonic as well as sensory, as it were). Through song, dance, and possibly narcotic substances, the wanderer may partake in or act as the great beings that first created these songlines, (and by doing so keep the structure of the cosmos stable). There ARE different interpretations of the Dreamtime and songline concepts, but this is the one I was taught, at least.

While these concepts are heightened in Glorantha due to it being fantasy entertainment that seeks to implement myths as closely into practical use as possible, the concept is essentially similar to how the Otherworlds in Glorantha are treated, from what I can tell.

My point then, is just to address an earlier concern about the difference between the mundane landscape and the spirit plane or gods plane. I understand that for gameplay purposes, and high fantasy genre purposes, it's cool to have an actual transportation to a different plane - but I just wanted to add that there isn't anything to REQUIRE that one treats these as separate spaces. The physical is spiritual. The spiritual is physical. It's a matter of perceiving and of sacred knowledge.

So, in others words, does it matter whether ones meets a spirit in a cave out in the brush, or whether you meet them in The Great Sacred Hollow in the Spirit Realm? Not for practical purposes. Not necessarily. The two caves are the same, yet not. They are different, yet not. If that's how you choose it to be.

I understand that some of this anthro stuff gets in the way of conveying a good play session to players, however, so take what I'm getting at with a grain of salt if you will.

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On 4/4/2019 at 12:11 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

in others words, does it matter whether ones meets a spirit in a cave out in the brush, or whether you meet them in The Great Sacred Hollow in the Spirit Realm? Not for practical purposes. Not necessarily. The two caves are the same, yet not. They are different, yet not. If that's how you choose it to be.

You say ‘not for practical purpose’, but I think that is exactly backwards. For magical and spiritual purposes, it may or may not matter. For practical purposes, it matters a great deal whether you have travelled there physically or spiritually (in RQ terms, in the mundane world or the Spirit Plane). And to acquire the magical knowledge that might allow you to travel there in the Spirit World, you probably should travel there physically first, so you can do things like learn the right songs, interact with sacred plants and animals, etc. The song lines songs often include the knowledge of how to physically get to the next site on the line, and to learn a whole song you must travel along the line.

And of course never assume that just because someone is an animist spiritual healer etc that they are not practical. My wife once attempted a seminar given by central Australian ngangkari traditional spiritual healers, talking about their work to medical staff from the hospital there, and their differing roles. They explained (in their language, through a translator) how they travelled a lot, they would travel to someone who was in distress and talk to them (sometimes a journey of hundreds of km), and often their diagnosis would be that when they travelled they had left part of their spirit behind, and the ngangkari would have to travel back to where the Spirit was, retrieve it, and then reunite it with the owner. During the following question and answer session, a doctor spoke up and asked how they communicated over such great distances to know where they were needed and coordinate getting around. They looked at the questioner incredulously, and held up their mobile phone. And also explained that they usually travelled these great distances in a ‘Toyota Land Cruiser’. 

 

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On 4/4/2019 at 12:11 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

As you probably know, the God Time concept in Glorantha is an adapted version of the Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime concept.

I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. Greg was very knowledgeable of a wide range of animist and ecstatic traditions all over the world, and only got detailed knowledge of Indigenous Australian traditions fairly late in Gloranthas history AFAIK. I’m sure it as a source, but one among many. And I think the Dreamtime and the song lines might be more influential on the Spirit World than the God Time. 

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Here is how I always looked at it.  Hero Quests exist on multiple levels, most are group rituals with desired out comes, mostly seen during sacred time or coming of age ceremonies.   The other is a ritual where the guy is wrapped up in the mythology wandering about the land, with the forces of fate drawing people in to involve them in the drams, to out sides this looks weird like every one involved is high or seriously mentally ill. The last involves tearing a hole in time space and traveling secret paths of intertwining dreams stories.  The spirit realm is less of a separate plane of exisitance and more like micro biology, you are pretty unaware of it till some one shines a black light on it. The underworld well that is a weird exception it intertwines with all of the layers of reality.  

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