What to do with wives?

[Khanwulf]

On 4/4/2019 at 1:14 PM, Atgxtg said:

YUp. Although with the way you describred things maybe I would be better if there were specific benefits that the wives could vie for rather than just a generic pool of bonus modifiers? That way they could work deals like "You help my husband become Castellan of Devizes and I'll put in a good word for your son with Lady Gyniss so he can get her two manors".

"Keep this card as the Lady's Favor. Expend the Lady's Favor to provide a +Y bonus or -Y penalty to one die roll."

Vary Y according to the magnitude of the resolved situation. 

Obviously you could use a Lady's Favor on tournament rolls, assuming you're not just playing through the contests. It could also, per wording, be used to affect another PK or NPK's roll. Explaining exactly how that occurs is a matter of role-playing, but the point is the Lady intervenes as requested and interferes for your benefit.

This is wandering over into a "Book of Courts and Tourneys"... which is not a bad thing mind you.

 

--Khanwulf

[Atgxtg]

26 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

"Keep this card as the Lady's Favor. Expend the Lady's Favor to provide a +Y bonus or -Y penalty to one die roll."

Yes but I think a more specific bonus might be better as it would allow characters to compete over a specific game benefits. Of course that would require defining what the benefits could be. Off the top of my head I can think of a few things: some sort of position or task of honor (extra glory), some sort of way to boost income for a year , getting somebody knighted, preventing someone from getting knighted, maybe some clue as to marriage prospects (i.e. the winner finds out about the heiress first), vying for an officer position.

26 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Vary Y according to the magnitude of the resolved situation. 

Yeah except I could see Y being used on multiple things. So wives would have to decide on which benefits they wanted the most, or were most likely to succeed at, and let others go. Or they could just spend points to make things tougher for a rival. SO instead of spending Y to improve your husband's chances to getting something, you could spend Y to reduce somebody else husband's chance of getting something. Or maybe even spend it to increase their chance. 

26 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Obviously you could use a Lady's Favor on tournament rolls, assuming you're not just playing through the contests. It could also, per wording, be used to affect another PK or NPK's roll. Explaining exactly how that occurs is a matter of role-playing, but the point is the Lady intervenes as requested and interferes for your benefit.

This is wandering over into a "Book of Courts and Tourneys"... which is not a bad thing mind you.

No. I think just aboput every aspect of KAP could benefit from a more detailed and expanded look. The key thing is that since these books are plugs ins and mostly compatible with the rules they replace, a GM is free to pick and choose which method he prefers, and can even switch between the two versions, depending on how important something is. 

[Khanwulf]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes but I think a more specific bonus might be better as it would allow characters to compete over a specific game benefits. Of course that would require defining what the benefits could be. Off the top of my head I can think of a few things: some sort of position or task of honor (extra glory), some sort of way to boost income for a year , getting somebody knighted, preventing someone from getting knighted, maybe some clue as to marriage prospects (i.e. the winner finds out about the heiress first), vying for an officer position.

Yeah except I could see Y being used on multiple things. So wives would have to decide on which benefits they wanted the most, or were most likely to succeed at, and let others go. Or they could just spend points to make things tougher for a rival. SO instead of spending Y to improve your husband's chances to getting something, you could spend Y to reduce somebody else husband's chance of getting something. Or maybe even spend it to increase their chance. 

Ah, but here's the thing: what we're talking about when touching "lady X helps with something I want done" is a specific applied bonus. But the motivation for lady X helping need not be an analogous incident--just because you helped with matchmaking doesn't mean that's all you can ask lady X for. Maybe you would better use her help to get someone out of prison? Or lean on a feast decision? Or send over a cloth merchant caravan? Or persuade so-and-so to stop spreading malicious rumors?

Really, scratching someone's back is very general and shouldn't be a straightjacket for the returned favor--an identical return is just lazy shorthand for the magnitude involved ("you got me coffee yesterday so I get you coffee today"). 

I'll use an example from literally half an hour ago: a colleague got me coffee, and I returned the favor by providing a detailed verbal analysis of a document I didn't have to comment on. This provides her a +Y bonus on her report-writing check later this week.

So. Y can be used on a variety of things and I'd suggest that it be applied liberally to just about any table check. (E.g. marriage table.) This means Y should not be large: +1 - +3 maybe, and perhaps tied to a skill check by the relevant NPC. There's tracking involved in that, but the card could have such details on it if desired. Cards are "held" by ladies/wives, and "bestowed" on men/husbands at their discretion; so during a tournament or court the lady can "bestow their favor [card]" on a knight, who then uses it for a bonus on the tournament table or courtly check or feast roll or whatnot.

...

Ok, so what is ON a card from a Book of Courts and Tourneys? Probably a situation that the character can participate in that calls for a skill and/or passion check. Maybe a string that can constitute intrigue/plotting. Maybe stats for a knight/challenger.

--Khanwulf

 

[Atgxtg]

I think we are pretty close on this. What I see is a  Geniality/Court Favor score (or maybe even a Lord's Favor (the liege) and Lady's Favor (the liege's wife)). The points can be saved/built up, but to use them some (or all) of them must be committed/spent towards a particular goal. So a wife might be able to get a Castellanship for her husband, but she would have to call in a lot of favors (spent points) to do so. 

But, other wives can spent some of their geniality  to get the same position for their husbands, (an opposed roll) or to to help you (add to your skill),  or to hinder you  (subtract from you skill).

I also think that some bonuses (not most but some) could be limited to a specific type of help.For instance somebody promises to do X for you if you help them. The point they give can only be spent towards X, but they would give a higher awards that usual. Or maybe you can use the normal benefit but can get double the value if applied towards X. For example a rich widow wants something done, and if you help her you get 2 genaity points, but becuase she's rich if you spend genaity to get more money you could double her 2 points to 4. 

 

But I think before this can be developed further we would need a list of the sort of effects that could be achieved.

1 hour ago, Khanwulf said:

Ok, so what is ON a card from a Book of Courts and Tourneys? Probably a situation that the character can participate in that calls for a skill and/or passion check. Maybe a string that can constitute intrigue/plotting. Maybe stats for a knight/challenger.

I could see a lot of minor things at court that the ladies could do to earn more points. For instance:

•  someone at court wants to get permission to marry: the wife could use their influence to help, spending some of their points, and if successful they NPC can given the more points back, so the wife ends up with a net gain of a point or two. If the wife fails she is out the point she spent.
• reduce rival's influence: the wife has a chance to reduce another characters influence/geniality. Maybe some sort of scandal. If it works then the rival loses some points, if it fails they don't, and on a fumble the whole thing could backfire on the original character.
• entertain VIP: Requires a successful skill, trait or passion roll (depending on the VIP/card) and can gain or lose geniality based upon the outcome. 
• Contests (best dressed, prettiest): Opposed contest  amongst the wives, winer gets some points. 
• Husband tasks: Card generates something that the husband has to do. It will be his choice to do it or not, and might require rolls on his part. 
• Keeping up with the Joneses: Somebody gets buys something or builds something and the wife must either do the same, try to one-up them, or loses status/points.
• Gossip: Find out some interesting and possibly useful information. Maybe even getting it before the other characters do.
• Matchmaking: Could serve as away to find possible marriage prospects-maybe allow the PK to see what they would roll on the wife/husband table BEFORE they roll, and so give the a chance to avoid a bad roll/match and try again next year.
• Generate actual Adventures for their husbands.
• Romance: Not only the basic stiff, but maybe they could come up with task for the knight to perform to prove his love. Each could suggest ideas based on a particlar skill/trait to be tested. Awards for the one with the best idea? 
• Glory: Maybe a way to earn some glory
• Checks & Rolls: A way to improve character scores.

But that's just a framework to start with please, let's add to and refine this.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Videopete]

Well sincethe player is playing the family and not just the knight, have the player play the wife as well, especially during times when the knights either down or during an adventures of political intrigue. 

.... Also just wait till winter phase and test for pregnancy survival and that should take care of that....

[7dot62mm]

In my campaign I use a custom-written program to generate a lady's stats, including traits and attributes, passions, backgrounds and family connections etc. using BoKL and my own modified systems. Players are of course immediately aware of any scores of 16 or greater ("she's famous for her zeal to get things done" for Energetic 16+) and as time goes by they will also become aware of any scores of 14+. The traits give the lady a bit of character.

In addition the program generates some other useful NPC attributes such as Intelligence, so a knight might have a brilliant wife who would give him insights into the present situation and free tips from the GM. The program also randomly generates three favorite skills for each NPC, for example one's wife might be a good singer or love boating.

The program also generates the lady's life from birth to grave (year born, year married, children, aging rolls and random death as explained in BoEntourage or somewhere) so it is useful in tracking the family of one's liege lord for example ("Lady Winningham has been ill this year", or "your vassal knight Sir Gwyddyff has been graced by the birth of twin sons").

So I've got pretty good tools for generating potentially interesting female non-player characters. As the program is very quick I try to generate wives, random noble women met at a Camelot tournament, sometimes even common women, either on the fly or during scenario preparation. Nevertheless women tend to be very much in the background of our games, mostly because the player knights usually leave them at home and go off adventuring elsewhere. The average Pendragon adventure does not involve the wives of player characters in any way.

 

[Hzark10]

7 hours ago, Videopete said:

have the player play the wife as well,

I would caution you on this. Wives seldom do everything a husband wants, in the way they want.  Greg always preferred another player be the wife so they would not always be 100% in sync. Likewise, squires.

 

3 hours ago, 7dot62mm said:

custom-written program to generate a lady's stats, including traits and attributes, passions, backgrounds and family connections etc. using BoKL and my own modified systems.

Sounds like a wonderful tool. The one attribute KAP does not track is Intelligence, but for NPCs, I could see the advantage of having one.

[Videopete]

16 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

I would caution you on this. Wives seldom do everything a husband wants, in the way they want.  Greg always preferred another player be the wife so they would not always be 100% in sync. Likewise, squires.

 

Sounds like a wonderful tool. The one attribute KAP does not track is Intelligence, but for NPCs, I could see the advantage of having one.

Same is true for husbands, just ask my wife.

[Atgxtg]

On 4/10/2019 at 5:26 AM, Hzark10 said:

I would caution you on this. Wives seldom do everything a husband wants, in the way they want.  Greg always preferred another player be the wife so they would not always be 100% in sync. Likewise, squires.

Yeah, but then the problem is the player playing the wife has no real reason to do what would be in the best interest of the family, as they would have no stake in the outcome. For the Knight, this is his family line, for the wife this is a throwaway character.Even playing a wife with a million glory doesn't do the player of the wife much good.

 

[Hzark10]

16 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

the problem is the player playing the wife has no real reason to do what would be in the best interest of the family, as they would have no stake in the outcome.

In the short run, that might be the case, but if/when this player gets a wife/husband, then they will be at the mercy of another as well. If that player did something that totally hoses someone (something the gm should have stopped), then he can't cry if it happens to him. And if it happens more than once, the other players should stop playing with this player.

[Atgxtg]

14 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

In the short run, that might be the case, but if/when this player gets a wife/husband, then they will be at the mercy of another as well. If that player did something that totally hoses someone (something the gm should have stopped), then he can't cry if it happens to him. And if it happens more than once, the other players should stop playing with this player.

I'm less concerned about deliberate hosing, which should be unlikely in a good players, and more concerned about a half hearted approach as the player probably wants to get back to playing their main character.  

I was thinking more along the lines of adding some sort of dynastic component to the wives the way the do for the knights. Give them some sort of stake in the family. Maybe even something that passes down plus some wifely goals to strive for that might not line up with the knight's. As it stands now there is really no reason for a wife not to do what the husbands wants. 

 

 

[Hzark10]

Again, peer pressure as someone else is running your wife should help reinforce this.  That being said, what you have does have merit.  

Being the mother of a famous son should have some glory gain, as does whath your husband does. I think the wife should get some of her husband's continuing glory. Also, she should get glory for notable passions and traits, just as a knight does.

She does have some dynastic qualities built in. Her husband, being a knight, does not have a risk-free occupation and she may find herself without one at any point. She will have her portion, her sons and daughters to look after, and so on.   It is just a different game.  Once tournaments and the like get going, she also has a min-game built in, but that depends on the other players and gamemaster as to whether this will become part of the normal game or not.

[Khanwulf]

41 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'm less concerned about deliberate hosing, which should be unlikely in a good players, and more concerned about a half hearted approach as the player probably wants to get back to playing their main character.  

I was thinking more along the lines of adding some sort of dynastic component to the wives the way the do for the knights. Give them some sort of stake in the family. Maybe even something that passes down plus some wifely goals to strive for that might not line up with the knight's. As it stands now there is really no reason for a wife not to do what the husbands wants.

Well as it's portrayed in Greg's notes on glory for Ladies, they get a significant chunk of their lifetime glory awards from:

1) Marrying well (largest by FAR!)

2) Having kids.

3) Marrying their kids off well.

4) Seeing kids placed in positions (knighthood, church, etc.)

So while the knight looks at the family as a source of heirs with which to fuel the family relationship with his lords and keep things a going concern, the wife's incentives are solely transactional for the accumulation of glory. What she *should* be doing with her spare time is ensuring the family is in good repute despite her husband's misadventures, and in a position to ensure advantageous marriages. Oh: and make lots of babies!

What ladies need, I think, is a) a defined mechanism for creating and dealing with the kinds of gossip, intrigue and other political undercurrents that occur when every damn courtly lady is working toward a limited pool of glory awards. Knights have this for swinging swords, which is immediate and visceral, but court is strung out longer and more abstracted (mostly). They also may need b) a clearer representation of the benefits of glory to themselves--but maybe not, if the glory skill bonuses are consistently applied.

And then of course, from the player's perspective he needs c) a further abstraction of the "wife's game" such that it happens at the table, quickly, and is not entirely under his control or exactly aligned with his (PK's) interests. Generally aligned, most of the time, but not exactly. Both the wife and the knight should be in communication and in agreement about the essentials: furthering the family position, but the details may differ.

--Khanwulf

 

Edit: to @Hzark10's point just above, I also agree that the wife should gain a small portion of the ongoing glory her husband receives--probably 1/10th of final yearly take, capped at 1000 per custom. I find it difficult to imagine the total respect (glory) of a queen would be so lagging just because she married her prince before he was crowned, for example.

On the other hand, the inverse should not hold: the knight doesn't get glory for his wife's deeds. He's expected to marry his kids well and his social position revolves around being an oath-bound fighting man, not advancing the family--that's a secondary benefit from his position.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Khanwulf

[Atgxtg]

14 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Well as it's portrayed in Greg's notes on glory for Ladies, they get a significant chunk of their lifetime glory awards from:

1) Marrying well (largest by FAR!)

2) Having kids.

3) Marrying their kids off well.

4) Seeing kids placed in positions (knighthood, church, etc.)

Yeah, but in game play, big deal. I think there needs to be more for a wife to pass down to her daughter similar to how it works for the knights. That wave a wife PC will be in in for the long haul.

Likewise I think there needs to be some more points of contention between the knight as his wife. So that when he wants to build a new improvement, she might have a reason to want to spend the money elsewehre.

 

14 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Edit: to @Hzark10's point just above, I also agree that the wife should gain a small portion of the ongoing glory her husband receives--probably 1/10th of final yearly take, capped at 1000 per custom. I find it difficult to imagine the total respect (glory) of a queen would be so lagging just because she married her prince before he was crowned, for example.

Me too. I think this could be extened to ladies who give let a knight carry thier favor as well. 

14 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

On the other hand, the inverse should not hold: the knight doesn't get glory for his wife's deeds. He's expected to marry his kids well and his social position revolves around being an oath-bound fighting man, not advancing the family--that's a secondary benefit from his position.

I dunno. I think there probably should be some "backwash" glory, but I think the knight should probably want to (and have incentive to) earn more glory on his own than what he gets from his wife. Maybe he gets bumped down to "consort" status or something?

[Khanwulf]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, but in game play, big deal. I think there needs to be more for a wife to pass down to her daughter similar to how it works for the knights. That way a wife PC will be in in for the long haul.

Likewise I think there needs to be some more points of contention between the knight as his wife. So that when he wants to build a new improvement, she might have a reason to want to spend the money elsewhere.

 

Me too. I think this could be extended to ladies who give let a knight carry their favor as well. 

I dunno. I think there probably should be some "backwash" glory, but I think the knight should probably want to (and have incentive to) earn more glory on his own than what he gets from his wife. Maybe he gets bumped down to "consort" status or something?

Bolded that bit: please elaborate. Among other things I thought Greg's approach ties the wife quite firmly into the family for the long haul. At least as much as the knight is. Both enjoy certain inheritance privileges, etc. from their station.

Definitely agree that there needs to be some mechanic for how spending decisions affects relationships. The main point of contention in modern marriages comes from differences on money (use, income, jobs, etc.), and I see no reason why this would be different back then. (The other point of contention is usually attention to/from the opposite sex, of course.) 

Now technically the social order gives control of the estate to whomever it is gifted/granted to: the knight; they make the financial decisions and the wife bends his ear, but for day-to-day management the wife is the one taking the budget and directing the staff. There's an automatic conflict created, as the tendency for the wife will be to expand that management to the entirety of available income, and plan out how she wants to use it (or... not plan). This will go double if she feels she's not getting her "due" in attention and generosity (gifts, etc.).

On Glory income: let's say the wife gets 1/10th the income of her husband, and a lady involved in fine amor gets glory (up to half) dedicated to her from the knight who awards her the most at the end of the year. So the optimal strategy is to have lots of babies to wed off later, a valiant and energetic husband, and at least one chivalrous knight in amor feeding plenty of glory in. The risk should be that the knight in amor is also working down the RF table and the lady might find herself falling out of the "game" and into more genuine affection--a risk that can bring righteous wrath, even if her play hasn't attracted jealousy already.

 

Next: Backwash glory from the wife to the knight? I'm not for this, really. The social stations are well-enough defined and I don't think the knight needs to have more sources of glory from which to draw. That said, if they marry a lady who is more glorious than themselves I could see them getting 1/10th of her glory income until he passes her. This could occur when a young knight marries an older woman, for example, and in addition to wedding glory exchanges might serve as an incentive to "marry up" as a knight. Beyond the huge... tracts of land, of course.

 

--Khanwulf   

[Hzark10]

3 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Backwash glory from the wife to the knight?

I can see this until the knight surpasses the wife (or vice-versa).  I can also see a negative aspect in that the wife could be adversely affecting the husband, and while that might give him/her more glory, could further complicate matters.

Instances would include Morgana and her various lovers, a wife of a pious knight who, shall we say, is more base in nature and while the cat is away...

[Atgxtg]

34 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

I can see this until the knight surpasses the wife (or vice-versa).  I can also see a negative aspect in that the wife could be adversely affecting the husband, and while that might give him/her more glory, could further complicate matters.

Yeah the latter is what I was thinking. A knight might earn 100 glory from his own actions, but get 110 from his wifes actions, and be looked at as "just the consort" and not much of a man. Figure it a good spot for Modest/Proud to kick in. 

Of course if he has 20,000 glory and she has 5000 then the extra 10 from here was a piddling amount. But if the glory totals were reversed...

 

Oh, late thought,  but maybe instead of getting a fraction of what the husband earns, the wife could get annual glory like a squire, that is 5 (or maybe 10) points for every thousand that the husband has? That would be easier for bookkeeping, provide incentive for wives to marry well, and if applied to widows make it that much more difficult for a PK to get a widow to re-marry "down", as she would loose annual glory.

So now an extraordinary knight with 32000 Glory is an extra 160 (or more) glory per year.

And if we use some for om Morien's suggestion of APP increasing glory (which I don't like) then high APP knights would be more appealing as husbands as they would generate more glory and give the wife higher annual awards. 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Bolded that bit: please elaborate.

Sure. As it stand now, players have a vested interest in knights and their sons, due to the whole dynastic nature of the game. But wives are sort of throwaway characters. They do get to  do much (yet) and glory they get doesn't help them all that much (see the previous two points on wives). So if a wife has 500 glory, 5000 glory or 50000, it doesn't matter that much. 

Now if if we made the role of the wife to pass down to the daughters the way it does for knights, and let glory pass down too (i.e. chidlren get the better Glory total of Mom or Dad) then assuming we come up with stuff for wives to do, the players of wife characters have a stake in how the family 

 

20 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Definitely agree that there needs to be some mechanic for how spending decisions affects relationships. The main point of contention in modern marriages comes from differences on money (use, income, jobs, etc.), and I see no reason why this would be different back then. (The other point of contention is usually attention to/from the opposite sex, of course.) Now technically the social order gives control of the estate to whomever it is gifted/granted to: the knight; they make the financial decisions and the wife bends his ear, but for day-to-day management the wife is the one taking the budget and directing the staff

Yes, I think that's where Stwardship and Industry should come in. Basically wife gets ahold of X libra but her husband wants to spend X on one thing and she would like to spend X on another thing. So she uses her skills to try and streach X into X+Y libra and in a few years has 2X and can get both. 

The Book of the Manor might help here. The Knight could use Book of Estate pricing for Improvements and the wife use the Book of the Manor to see how (with the random rolls) to see how the improvements really worked out. So husband could expect £2.5 income from his horse herd, but wife rolls the random income and could wind up with more or less than that. So if a few years she might squirrel away a few libra that "Honey" doesn't know about. And that gives her some power. 

 

20 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

On Glory income: let's say the wife gets 1/10th the income of her husband, 

I was thinking that maybe a better simpler approach would be to do what they do for squires? Namely that the wife gets 5 (or maybe 10 or even a higher figure) glory per year for every 1000 that the husband has. That would keep the math simple, and keep the bookkeeping down.

So if a Knight had 6000 glory, his wife gets 30 or 60 per year for being his wife. Noe that widows could get this until they remarry too. Which would raise the bar for potential suitors. This could be revised for when the wife has more glory than the knight (see below)

 

20 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Next: Backwash glory from the wife to the knight? I'm not for this, really. The social stations are well-enough defined and I don't think the knight needs to have more sources of glory from which to draw.

My thought here was what happens when somebody married above his station. For instance the consort of the Queen. Typically those guys get a reputation as being meek and weak willed, even if they don't deserve it, unless they have accomplished themselves in their own right. So the idea would be that they would get glory for marring a woman with more glroy than they have, but it would be the wrong sort of glory ("Look it's Sir Henpeck, the Queen's wife") and they won't want it. That would encourage consort knights to want to go off and prove themselves, which I believed is how a lot of those guys wound up dead. 

It would be another source of conflict between the two characters and thus good material for roleplaying.

 

[Khanwulf]

Right, so in summary from @Hzark10 and @Atgxtg:

1. Wife gains 10 glory per 1000 that her husband has at the end of the year (winter phase)

2. If husband's total glory is less than wife's, husband gains 10 glory per year per 1000 wife has at end of year (winter phase).

2.b A husband marrying up will have role-playing pressure on their traits to either adopt a subservient attitude in the relationship, or excel. This could be modeled through checks annually in intrigue (to see if the gossip is noticed), then Love(Family), Love(spouse), Pride, Energetic, and etc. Part of it comes down to how the wife treats the husband as well: though the church doesn't suggest love or hate as a family motivation, they are supposed to be confidants and advisers to each other.

3. Use Greg's life event glory awards for wives. These are probably not subject to the 1000/event cap, by inference. 

4. Daughters gain the higher of 1/10th mother's glory or 1/10th father's glory at marriage. Sons gain 1/10th father's glory at knighting or marriage--whichever happens first. There should be a determination if these awards are subject to the 1000/event cap. [Note: I believe this is already in Greg's page on wife glory.]

5. Stewardship/industry rolls by wives that result in better-than-expected results are stocked away by wives for their use, unless the husband finds out and objects/seizes it. Doing so will result in trait checks and other consequences. This is along the lines of the traditional "butter and eggs money" that the woman made from producing such household items; the man raiding same was/is considered a low kind of scoundrel. 

6. You could still do a series of checks at different points in the year to determine if the wife wants more money, how successful she is at wheedling some out of her husband, and what the consequences are of that. For both of them. The key factor is how Love(Family) and Love(Spouse) are affected, the development of any suspicious, generous and greedy directed traits and etc.

7. A widow continues to receive annual glory (per #1) from her late husband's final total until either her own glory surpasses his or she remarries. 

8. A Lady may engage in Amor with a knight. She gains 1/10th of his glory total per year so long as the relationship continues. Multiple men may ascribe Amor to a single Lady, however only the most glorious will contribute annual glory to her total: determine which by who has the higher of a) total glory or b) glory for deeds during the year, dedicated to the Lady (up to 50% of glory awards to the knight).

8.b An intimate relationship between a knight and a Lady is considered an Amor for this purpose.

8.c A knight in Amor with a Lady gains glory per year equal to the higher of [base value--100?] or 1/10th Lady's glory, so long as their relationship contributes glory to her. A knight may dedicate glory from his deeds to his Lady amor, of up to 50% of his personal awards, summed at year-end.

8.d A knight in Amor decreases the Lady's RF over time, according to the system that I'll not attempt to overhaul at this time. Should the RF fall far enough, both will need to make choices on whether to advance their relationship or restart it (purposefully focusing on other individuals, discontinuing amor, or etc.). Regardless, hitting an inflection point is a cause for gossip as it results in behavioral changes for both knight and lady that watchers notice.

8.e A wife may not be the target of her husband's Fine Amor.

 

 

Comments? This should result in plenty of courtly glory going around and a lot of incentives for conflict.

 

--Khanwulf

 

 

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Khanwulf said:

 

8.c A knight in Amor with a Lady gains glory per year equal to the higher of [base value--100?] or 1/10th Lady's glory, so long as their relationship contributes glory to her. A knight may dedicate glory from his deeds to his Lady amor, of up to 50% of his personal awards, summed at year-end.

I think that would be better handled as the lady getting a fraction of the glory the suitor earns "in her name". The idea being to inspire the knight to perform great deeds in her name. 

Just now, Khanwulf said:

Comments? This should result in plenty of courtly glory going around and a lot of incentives for conflict.

It should certinaly give women stuff to do and make them more than cardboard cutouts. 

[Khanwulf]

20 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I think that would be better handled as the lady getting a fraction of the glory the suitor earns "in her name". The idea being to inspire the knight to perform great deeds in her name. 

It should certainly give women stuff to do and make them more than cardboard cutouts. 

That's what's happening. The Lady gets either an amount based on how glorious her Amor is, or a portion (up to 50%) of his glory that he dedicates to her. 

The reason for the passive glory amount is to represent how knights who have already done great deeds are attractive Amor partners, even if they have other obligations that keep them from adventuring so much. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the emphasis however, and no one cares that you carry on with Lancelot if he's more Homesalot these days.

[Atgxtg]

 

21 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

The reason for the passive glory amount is to represent how knights who have already done great deeds are attractive Amor partners, even if they have other obligations that keep them from adventuring so much. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the emphasis however, and no one cares that you carry on with Lancelot if he's more Homesalot these days.

Oh, I see. Carrying on with Sir Extraordinary (50K) is more glorious that carrying on with Sir Potato of Couch (1500 glory). I can buy that.

[Khanwulf]

22 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

 

Oh, I see. Carrying on with Sir Extraordinary (50K) is more glorious that carrying on with Sir Potato of Couch (1500 glory). I can buy that.

Right. And even once Sir Potato ditches the couch and goes out sending dragon-heads back in her name he'll need to dedicate a good chunk of his catch-up glory to her in order to top Sir Extraordinary's passive contribution (500/year) while standing at one of the four corners of Arthur's bed.

By the way, I agree that passive APP increases to Glory awards are not such a fantastic idea when you have enough sources available. Though the example Sir Extraordinary's glory total would put him among perhaps a dozen personages in the entire Arthurian arc.

[Atgxtg]

48 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

By the way, I agree that passive APP increases to Glory awards are not such a fantastic idea when you have enough sources available. Though the example Sir Extraordinary's glory total would put him among perhaps a dozen personages in the entire Arthurian arc.

A horse told me. Specially that SIZ 42 charger that I've mentioned. Two x15 modifiers become 15^2 or  x225! So I got concerned about that with other multipliers. Especially since we would almost have to dump the new 1000 glory cap, to be fair to the high APP guys (there is no damage cap). 

A fairly fixed passive amount of some sort seems safer. APP if over 15 is the obvious (if trival) choice. APP per 1000 glory might by workable, but risky (Knight with APP 16 and  10K Glory getting 160 passive glory per year might be too much, although it would take awhile for it to get to that point.).

. 

[Khanwulf]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

A horse told me. Specially that SIZ 42 charger that I've mentioned. Two x15 modifiers become 15^2 or  x225! So I got concerned about that with other multipliers. Especially since we would almost have to dump the new 1000 glory cap, to be fair to the high APP guys (there is no damage cap). 

A fairly fixed passive amount of some sort seems safer. APP if over 15 is the obvious (if trival) choice. APP per 1000 glory might by workable, but risky (Knight with APP 16 and  10K Glory getting 160 passive glory per year might be too much, although it would take awhile for it to get to that point.).

. 

a) At the Winter phase, for ever 1,000 glory earned that year, receive as a bonus the greater of (0 or (APP - 10) x 10) glory.

b) For skill successes, use APP as the base glory award, modified normally.

c) For occasions in which your skill interactions may employ appearance as part of their presentation, take a modifier of (APP-11)/2 to skill check. [This one will cause more criticals on social rolls, leading to higher glory awards for skill successes.]

 

Might that all help?

--Khanwulf