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1 hour ago, Khanwulf said:

APP should, like size, cease to improve aside from glory points after 21. That's fair. However what benefit is there to raising APP after chargen? Because if you start in squire-land you still have growing to do and will gain considerably less for you attribute to skill conversion. 

 

Starting as a squire or even a young lady is not necessarily a problem, although it would complicate things. You could simply allow each increased point of APP to add +1 to all designated skills automatically, as long as they are below 15. You could even do this with all characters, not just younger ones, and hence deal with Atgxtg's apparent objection. Thus, if I want to become generally more charming, it would behove me to buy +1 APP rather than spread 1d6+1 skill points around, but if I want to be laser-focused on Orate, I am better off putting points into it. As the characters get older and more skilled, the appeal of raising APP goes down since they already have more skills at 15, meaning that the older characters will stop raising their APP. Which is reasonable, IMHO.

I have difficulties wrapping my head around the idea that APP 25 lady who gets to start with extra 8 skills at 15, and add 2 more points to those skills & earn x2.5 Glory for using those skills, would find her APP 'useless'...

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10 minutes ago, Morien said:

Let's say that I want to be the consummate courtier, master of all courtly skills. I have 60 points to spend on attributes. I can either prioritize APP, or I can prioritize the skills.

a.) I put APP 18, since that is as high as the GM lets me to go. This means that my starting value in those 7 skills is 10 instead of 2 (APP-8). This is a total of 7*8 = 56 skill points (= 11+ yearly trainings), for the investment of 8 stat points (= 8 yearly trainings). In addition, I will gain x1.8 glory for the use of these skills under the APP Glory rule. I can still use the misc picks or the 10 additional skill points to improve my courtly skills or other skills for that matter (Horsemanship 15, Lance 15?). Also, I have the 15 skill (Sword?) and 3x10 skill choices to make (Awareness, Recognize, Falconry?). Or patch up my other attributes with misc points (so I am only 4 points in the hole).

Naturally, SIZ is already maxed out.

What do you mean "naturally SIZ is already maxed out? Do all your character have max SIZ?

10 minutes ago, Morien said:

b.) I prioritize the skills, leaving APP 10. If I use all the skill choices to courtly skills, then yes, I only need 3 other skills, which would cost me only 24 skill points (10 skill points + 3 picks). However, this would leave my combat skills rather poor (final pick Sword 15, Lance 11).

B would have higher STR and CON in the beginning, but not nearly the breadth of skills that A has. And if B tries to catch up with A, it would take B another 9 points (2 years) for combat skills, and about 20 points (4.5 years) for Awareness, Recognize and Falconry. Meanwhile, A needs a year to patch up the one courtly skill to 15, and 4 years to catch up in STR & CON, while enjoying the extra Glory from Court, too. In short, A has 1.5 years more skills/stats in the end.

So what? Sword 15 is better than having Compose, Orate and Fashion all at 40. So if SIZ 15 or CON 15. 

10 minutes ago, Morien said:

If you add Fashion in there, too, it will make APP even better starting choice, adding an additional skill you get with APP. I forgot about that one.

Big deal If the bonus from APP Is in chargen then fasion is pretty useless. Maybe it might give a player another five glory per year, maybe. The player would be better off just spending the libra for conspicuous consumption and avoid having to roll for a benefit. 

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3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

What do you mean "naturally SIZ is already maxed out? Do all your character have max SIZ?

If I am using the Designated method, then heck yes. It is by far the most important attribute currently.

If we are using Random method, then it is useless to talk about choosing your attributes, since you have no choice, just the luck of the dice.

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Big deal If the bonus from APP Is in chargen then fasion is pretty useless.

Naturally the Fashion skill needs to work differently, like giving you a bonus* to your Court skills, for example, in addition to giving you APP Glory for the success.

* what the bonus should be is a further question.

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Ok, ok. Guys both of you have valid perspectives: Atgxtg is concerned about marginal utility and Morien the impact of long-term value on character balance. Both of these are important.

My suggestion is to consider a situation where starting characters have no skill bonus over BoK&L, but APP affects max skill and learning rate as well as skill use glory and other social battle mechanics.

This is still a conservative approach as young characters well need to put effort into their skills without automatically being awesome, yet they can definitely achieve awesome more easily that Sir Lumpy over yon.

Skills like fashion and recognise become like siege and battle in the social arena, and we can untangle how that works once there's some comity on the measures APP enjoys. Fair?

 

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3 hours ago, Morien said:

That being said, I am more in favor of the starting skill bonus. That way, the pretty people start with an edge, but someone can match that edge with time and determination. Also, it would require no modifications other than the seven or so skills in chargen, at the starting values, and then you'd be done. No rules modifications for Winter Phase.

I will echo here Morien's preference.  It doesn't keep it out of one's grasp if one works for it, and gives the bonus if the player spends the points initially.

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1 hour ago, Morien said:

If I am using the Designated method, then heck yes. It is by far the most important attribute currently.

That unfortunate. And a problem. I know the solution for it, but it's not in the RAW. Realistically you wouldn't be able to ride many horses. 

Quote

If we are using Random method, then it is useless to talk about choosing your attributes, since you have no choice, just the luck of the dice.

Not entirely, since you get 4 picks during chargen. 

Quote

Naturally the Fashion skill needs to work differently, like giving you a bonus* to your Court skills, for example, in addition to giving you APP Glory for the success.

* what the bonus should be is a further question.

Yeah, and it's a good question, to ask, too.

Edited by Atgxtg

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22 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Ok, ok. Guys both of you have valid perspectives: Atgxtg is concerned about marginal utility and Morien the impact of long-term value on character balance. Both of these are important.

If APP is a one time bonus, then to make use of it the character would have to not only nerf his stats but also his skill choices in chargen,  too. Basically, it's character classes )

Plu it would also be easier  to let a PK spend attribute points to raise a non-combat skill by 5 points. 

22 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

My suggestion is to consider a situation where starting characters have no skill bonus over BoK&L, but APP affects max skill and learning rate as well as skill use glory and other social battle mechanics.

My prefernce of the options discussed to far.

22 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

This is still a conservative approach as young characters well need to put effort into their skills without automatically being awesome, yet they can definitely achieve awesome more easily that Sir Lumpy over yon.

Skills like fashion and recognise become like siege and battle in the social arena, and we can untangle how that works once there's some comity on the measures APP enjoys. Fair?

 

Yeah, but to really work the benefits for court skill has to be on the same level of importance as combat. 

I think one way that could be achieved is with marriage. If finding a good match and getting permission to marry was something that involved court skills more than they do currently, then that right there would make the social aspects of the game more important as marriage is the gateway to land and heirs.

Another way would be if the wife could give a bonus to her hubby's court skills.In my current campaign, I send the PKs emails every so often with marriage prospects and allow the PKs have their wives sell stuff to get a little more money than the Knight would (because the wife can negotiate a little more than the husband).  For example if a knight can sell a suit of armor and get half value, the wife could get three quarters. That might help a little. 

 

 

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RAW, App is a dumb Stat. As a houserule, i use a fake "inspiration" under App for all social skills.

The PK can "inspire" under App, if the GM feels that his target can be influenced by App. It's more than sexual attraction. Have you a honest face or not? Sources are full of these kind of consideration.

-sucess: +5 to the skill

- failure: -5 to the skill

-crit: +10 (You're her type!)

- fumble: -10 (You're not)

I think it's simpler that way, and it's working well.

 

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On 4/19/2019 at 6:40 AM, Tizun Thane said:

RAW, App is a dumb Stat. As a houserule, i use a fake "inspiration" under App for all social skills.

The PK can "inspire" under App, if the GM feels that his target can be influenced by App. It's more than sexual attraction. Have you a honest face or not? Sources are full of these kind of consideration.

-sucess: +5 to the skill

- failure: -5 to the skill

-crit: +10 (You're her type!)

- fumble: -10 (You're not)

I think it's simpler that way, and it's working well.

 

Honestly this is probably the best idea I've heard so far as a way to make Appearance useful. Totally stealing this.

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Keep us posted on how using APP and inspiration works.  Since I allow traits and passions as the source of inspiration, I am interested in determining whether Attributes can also be used as one. 

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7 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Keep us posted on how using APP and inspiration works.  Since I allow traits and passions as the source of inspiration, I am interested in determining whether Attributes can also be used as one. 

I mean what strikes me is that it's use is going to be simultaneously more niche and more broad than other passions. It's going to be primarily applicable in social situations (Which by and large are still going to be somewhat lower stakes than the pitched combats that most passions get invoked in). That being said, that still is likely to come up relatively often and necessitate a lot of appearance rolls. (Which could get a little tricky to track who likes how each given person looks)

 

Additionally, one other idea came to me when I was looking through Paladin's Attitudes. That being that you could use your appearance as the base attitude, modified by relevant traits. (Eg: the church cares about your lowest religious trait, Arthur cares about your lowest chivalrous trait, the commoners care about you being merciful, etc.) Honestly kind of feels like a missed opportunity when they introduced the whole idea of Attitudes.

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There used to be a discussion on this very same topic on Greg Stafford's KAP forum. I've not visited it recently and my google-fu is apparently very weak as I cannot find it again now (possibly it's been taken down as mark of respect but I don't feel confident  in making that assertion, you may have better luck than I at hunting it down)

Suggestions:

Knights begin with as any Armour Points as they have APP points (handsome, fashionable Knights have fashionable armour, scruffy wolfsheads have mismatched, sruffy wolfshead armour) if this is not possible due to the current era then they have have multiple suits totalling that many AP.

APP is not rolled, it is the average (arithmetic mean) of all other characteristics other than SIZ. Inspired by the descriptions of Homer's heroes (not THAT Homer).

At creation (or now if retroactively applying a house rule) choose one Social Skill which starts equal to APP

Edited by Al.

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On 4/21/2019 at 5:31 AM, Ravian said:

Honestly this is probably the best idea I've heard so far as a way to make Appearance useful. Totally stealing this.

Thank you! ;)

On 4/21/2019 at 2:03 PM, Hzark10 said:

Keep us posted on how using APP and inspiration works.  Since I allow traits and passions as the source of inspiration, I am interested in determining whether Attributes can also be used as one. 

There is two problems:

1) App can be boosted with beautiful clothes and jewels. So an average guy with App 10 can be relooked into a beautiful man with App 20,  and never miss a roll...

2) This rule can be abused by canny players. I fear you have to put a limitation to the number of "inspiration" under App. One by event is a good idea, I guess.

 

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1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

I fear you have to put a limitation to the number of "inspiration" under App. One by event is a good idea, I guess.

There is precedence for this idea: you may only use each passion once per battle. And many would consider the APP contests to be battles.

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4 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

 

 

 

1) App can be boosted with beautiful clothes and jewels. So an average guy with App 10 can be relooked into a beautiful man with App 20,  and never miss a roll...

Or above 20 and increase the chance of of a critical. Personally I think three adjustments are required:

 

  • First off the cost to improve APP with clothing or jewelry should not be a fixed value but should increase. 
  • Secondly, "the bar" for what gives a plus should depend on where you are. A dress that is worth +1 APP at home should not be worth as much at Camelot.
  • There probably should be an upper cap based on the original APP score. For instance in RQ3, APP could be improved up to 1.5xAPP normally. After that it took magic and the character who no longer recognizable as the same person.  Something like that would help in Pendragon. That way a beautiful damsel with APP 20 could up her APP by 10 with bling, while a plain on with a 10 could get up to 15, and a hideous hag with APP 3 is limited to a 5 -no amount of clothing and makeup can make her pretty.

 

4 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

2) This rule can be abused by canny players. I fear you have to put a limitation to the number of "inspiration" under App. One by event is a good idea, I guess.

That true of just about any rule though. But I probably dos need a penalty for failure,. Passions have all sorts of kickers (spacing out/melancholy. reduction in rating, madness, aging rolls) that keep them in check.

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Laughter at the person, mentionings of how ridiculous he/she looks, exaggerated movements, mimicking the person in question, the local bard/minstrel lampooning them are all good results.

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On 4/24/2019 at 8:29 AM, Hzark10 said:

Laughter at the person, mentionings of how ridiculous he/she looks, exaggerated movements, mimicking the person in question, the local bard/minstrel lampooning them are all good results.

That can work. I'd probably toss in a minor penalty (-2?) to further social rolls for the rest evening, as it's harder to be impressive once you've embarrassed yourself. 

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