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7 hours ago, g33k said:

Technically, I think that honor goes to Tekumel.  Their fan base & grognardia kept (is still keeping) their flame alive.  It may yet blaze forth again, burning brightly.

But MARBarker had about 2 decades' head start on Ed Greenwood & Greg Stafford...

Fair point. I'm a big fan of Tekumel as well, but I'd kind of forgotten because of all the fits and starts with the IP. Like CoC, Tekumel is a heck of a lot of fun, but it's definitely a niche market :)

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7 hours ago, g33k said:

Technically, I think that honor goes to Tekumel.  Their fan base & grognardia kept (is still keeping) their flame alive.  It may yet blaze forth again, burning brightly.

But MARBarker had about 2 decades' head start on Ed Greenwood & Greg Stafford...

Their community is sadly nearly moribund, while RQ's is, dare I say it, thriving.

I will say of Arneson, Barker, and Stafford (all of whom I was fortunate enough to meet or get to know), Stafford was by far the nicest!

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4 hours ago, styopa said:

Their community is sadly nearly moribund, while RQ's is, dare I say it, thriving.

Say "slumbering in embers" rather than moribund.  Tekumel has enough content for a resurgence, and avid fans to spark a fire; it just hasn't got widespread-enough attention, nor a fabulous new edition to get some buzz (any "sparks" would need to be "fanned" as it were, to become a blaze).  But yeah... not much action over on Tekumel.com or TekumelFoundation.org; their FB site seems reasonably active, at least!  I hope it happens for that community, I really do; Tekumel is every bit as much a work of creative genius as those game-worlds with a bigger audience.  It deserves that bigger audience!

 

4 hours ago, styopa said:

I will say of Arneson, Barker, and Stafford (all of whom I was fortunate enough to meet or get to know), Stafford was by far the nicest!

I was never lucky enough.

Arneson's Blackmoor originated in the 1970's.  Stafford's Glorantha & Greenwood's Realms both began in the 1960's (pre-RPG), though AFAIK all 3 saw first publication as games (admittedly, Blackmoor & Glorantha were first gamed as wargames (but Arneson's earliest Blackmoor wargames were already developing proto-RPG elements)).

Barker's Tekumel was born in the 1940's(!).  It may not "technically" belong alongside Blackmoor, Glorantha, and the Forgotten Realms:  Tekumel was published as fiction before RPGs existed, whereas 1st publication of the others was actually as game settings.  Arguably, then, Tekumel might be just the first "other media" IP adapted to a RPG.  But it's also one of the few (if not the only) adapted by the original author, who created RPG game-rules and ran the game himself... you never saw Tolkien or Roddenberry tweaking game-mechanics, nor slinging platonic solids 'round the table!

 

Edited by g33k
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27 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

If we're on the topic, where could I start getting into Tekumel?

It doesn't appear to be thrivingly active, but I'd begin at Tekumel.com -- it is, I think, the place with the most info collected together & links to other resources.

The FB page is active, but my recent view suggests that the main interest there is in wargames of Tekumel rather than RPG's; OTOH, maybe that's just because there's a recent mini's KS for Tekumel, so it's got all the attention.

You could also ask on a bigger forum like RPGnet, ENworld, or GiantIP, where sheer numbers suggest you'll get seen by some grognards of the Tekumel community.  Also, you'd be starting a new thread with a relevant title (instead of one 3 pages deep in a "new to RQ ..." thread).

But again, this loops me back to Tekumel.com -- they have a forum there, and it's ALREADY filled with Tekumel grognards.  They just... don't have much to be excited about, I guess:  no recent posts.  I presume if you hung a "newbie" steak around your neck and dove in, a few of them would come to take a bite...  😉 

 

Edited by g33k
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What I would love to see more than anything else is a visual culture guidebook almost in the style of Osprey's historical reference books. Show me what Sartarite Orlanthi look like, let me see their homes and their festivals. What makes a Tarshite so much more different and what weird foods do they enjoy that an Esrolian would be baffled/enthralled by?

I can point at an Elf or a Dwarf and everyone can picture it in their heads. If I mention French (or not-French) soldiers everybody has an easy reference point. Glorantha requires me to mesh some things together to explain but even then it can also give kind of the wrong idea. Orlanthi aren't Greeks but they also aren't vikings, but they kind of are? Each culture is its own unique thing and having a visual and low level reference would make a world of difference in introducing players. Reading Prince of Sartar recently has greatly influenced how I see and portray the world, I want more of that but focused on just the cultures themselves! I feel like King of Dragon Pass has taught me more about the Orlanthi than the corebooks but even then I have to remember that is several hundred years prior so things change.

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9 hours ago, DerKrieger said:

What I would love to see more than anything else is a visual culture guidebook almost in the style of Osprey's historical reference books. Show me what Sartarite Orlanthi look like, let me see their homes and their festivals. What makes a Tarshite so much more different and what weird foods do they enjoy that an Esrolian would be baffled/enthralled by?

I can point at an Elf or a Dwarf and everyone can picture it in their heads. If I mention French (or not-French) soldiers everybody has an easy reference point. Glorantha requires me to mesh some things together to explain but even then it can also give kind of the wrong idea. Orlanthi aren't Greeks but they also aren't vikings, but they kind of are? Each culture is its own unique thing and having a visual and low level reference would make a world of difference in introducing players. Reading Prince of Sartar recently has greatly influenced how I see and portray the world, I want more of that but focused on just the cultures themselves! I feel like King of Dragon Pass has taught me more about the Orlanthi than the corebooks but even then I have to remember that is several hundred years prior so things change.

Honestly, much of what you're talking about is in the Guide to Glorantha - really, a Gloranthan encyclopedia.

9 hours ago, DerKrieger said:

. Orlanthi aren't Greeks but they also aren't vikings, but they kind of are?

Image result for warning electrocution risk

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19 hours ago, styopa said:

Honestly, much of what you're talking about is in the Guide to Glorantha - really, a Gloranthan encyclopedia.

Does it really get detailed on different regions and their cultures? I heard it was great for reading about the areas but that it didnt go very detailed on the people themselves more so the locals.

If so I'm even more interest than I was before but I would certainly like to see an easier entry point to the people's around Dragon Pass.

eyewit_orlanthi.PNG

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32 minutes ago, DerKrieger said:

Does it really get detailed on different regions and their cultures? I heard it was great for reading about the areas but that it didnt go very detailed on the people themselves more so the locals.

If so I'm even more interest than I was before but I would certainly like to see an easier entry point to the people's around Dragon Pass.

eyewit_orlanthi.PNG

Well, no, it's not an osprey book certainly, I mean it's covering two massive continents, history, mythology, so it's general at that level.  But it talks to some degree about the various cultures (mostly cnp from the RQ3 Glorantha books).

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On 4/8/2019 at 12:42 PM, EpicureanDM said:

It's a good read, but it's very high-level. What it lacks is the sort of practical cultural detail that will help you create the feel of Glorantha at the table. Almost all of the information in it is lore that a PC might gather from a successful Lore skill check. But you're often looking for ground-level details when you're playing a game. Things like:

  1. What does a village look like and how does it operate? How do the players fit into that?
  2. What are the laws and customs of local folks that the players should understand since they come from that culture? For example, Orlanthi conceptions of justice are significantly different than our modern instincts. You can't fall back on D&D's familiar pseudo-medieval or proto-Renaissance ideas if you want to portray it properly. 
  3. What sorts of social and religious obligations are the PCs expected to conform to? What punishment results from disobeying or disregarding them?

What about the Sartar Companion?

For the last week I've been thinking about getting the Glorantha Sourcebook, but I'm now wondering if the two Sartar books are more relevant for "day-to-day" game execution.

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1 hour ago, klecser said:

What about the Sartar Companion?

For the last week I've been thinking about getting the Glorantha Sourcebook, but I'm now wondering if the two Sartar books are more relevant for "day-to-day" game execution.

Also very good. It provides lots of detail on towns in the region that you can use as a foundation for your game. It also contains adventures, which are helpful as examples of what RuneQuest thinks PCs should be doing. It also contains great cult write-ups for gods that you'll find in RQG like Babeester Gor and Eurmal. I particularly like it because it details Kolat's cult, which is the best cult for an Orlanthi looking to become a shaman. 

If you're going to actually play RQG, I'd recommend both Sartar books before the Glorantha Sourcebook. If you're going to buy a third book, though, then by all means pick up the Sourcebook. It's a very good book, but it's not directly useful in play. ;)

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On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:55 PM, Richard S. said:

If we're on the topic, where could I start getting into Tekumel?

Apart from tekumel.com also here: http://chirinebakal.proboards.com/

Chirene played with Prof Barker for many years and is very approachable in replying to questions. He also has a blog here: http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/

I'm also hoping for a Tekumel resurgence one day. I'd love Sandy P to do a large scale game a la Cthulhu Wars/Gods War based on Tekemel.

There are lots of pdfs available on DrivethruRPG.

There is also a huge thread on the RPGsite where he answers questions: https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?32577-Questioning-chirine-ba-kal (he continued the thread on the forum above when he started that up)

EDIT: I forgot, there is also the Blue Room Archive, hosted now on tekumel.com that has the contents of the venerable mailing list of the same name: https://www.tekumel.com/blueroom_list.html

 

Edited by d(sqrt(-1))
typos

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Gang - if you want to make a Tekumel thread in another part of the forum, that's great. But let's not further hijack a thread about RQ Product.

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7 hours ago, klecser said:

What about the Sartar Companion?

For the last week I've been thinking about getting the Glorantha Sourcebook, but I'm now wondering if the two Sartar books are more relevant for "day-to-day" game execution.

 

6 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Also very good. It provides lots of detail on towns in the region that you can use as a foundation for your game. It also contains adventures, which are helpful as examples of what RuneQuest thinks PCs should be doing. It also contains great cult write-ups for gods that you'll find in RQG like Babeester Gor and Eurmal. I particularly like it because it details Kolat's cult, which is the best cult for an Orlanthi looking to become a shaman. 

If you're going to actually play RQG, I'd recommend both Sartar books before the Glorantha Sourcebook. If you're going to buy a third book, though, then by all means pick up the Sourcebook. It's a very good book, but it's not directly useful in play. ;)

Agreed, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes as well as the Sartar Companion are really good resources regarding Orlanthi/Sartarite culture and adventures based in that area. But you have to take them with a grain of salt especially regarding the cultural template used for illustrations, which has experienced a major change between these books and more recent Glorantha publications. This has been discussed in another thread already:

Regarding this the Glorantha Sourcebook is the better choice, but otherwise the Sartar books are just great.

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14 hours ago, Oracle said:

But you have to take them with a grain of salt especially regarding the cultural template used for illustrations, which has experienced a major change between these books and more recent Glorantha publications.

I would put this differently:

"But you have to take them with a grain of salt only regarding the cultural template used for illustrations."

As originally written ("especially"), it sounds like there are lots of places where the reader should be wary, but I don't usually see people suggesting that the cultural and social information in the books has changed sufficiently that Glorantha newcomers should watch out. So stay sharp when describing the clothes and architecture, but I don't consider those to be important to most RQG stories in play. ;)

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7 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I would put this differently:

"But you have to take them with a grain of salt only regarding the cultural template used for illustrations."

As originally written ("especially"), it sounds like there are lots of places where the reader should be wary, but I don't usually see people suggesting that the cultural and social information in the books has changed sufficiently that Glorantha newcomers should watch out. So stay sharp when describing the clothes and architecture, but I don't consider those to be important to most RQG stories in play. ;)

Agreed. This makes the point clearer.

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On 4/13/2019 at 6:32 PM, klecser said:

What about the Sartar Companion?

For the last week I've been thinking about getting the Glorantha Sourcebook, but I'm now wondering if the two Sartar books are more relevant for "day-to-day" game execution.

Sartar Companion has some great material, but there’s a lot I also skip over. I consider Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes far more essential and valuable to a campaign based in Dragon Pass. Definitely more valuable background information than the Glorantha Sourcebook.

The art in the Glorantha Sourcebook is beautiful though and far more illustrative of the current aesthetic for the world of Glorantha.

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On 4/14/2019 at 2:20 AM, Oracle said:

But you have to take them with a grain of salt especially regarding the cultural template used for illustrations

As a late-comer to Glorantha(1), I have to say that the 2 most confusing or annoying parts of the product line are:

  • Recommendations of out-of-print products. You can thankfully get the PDFs (and I'm super thankful for that, I hope more PDFs show up eventually) but I find that it's not as fun to flip through, and not as practical for "reference" type books. I understand that it's still better than "nope, there's nothing about Sartarite culture available right now" but I think it might be worth it to always add a disclaimer that only the PDF is available. And I don't mean to criticize specifically people who posted about Sartar books here, I appreciate the information and help, I'm just sharing how, at first, I would often feel a bit of disappointment tracing back some book reference to a PDF-only page (or worse).
  • The tribal knowledge surrounding the convoluted publication history of both Runequest and Glorantha material. Sometimes there's material that has been re-published with minor edits, sometimes there's new material that invalidates older material, etc. I would absolutely LOVE to see a list of all the books ever made by the usual suspects (Chaosium, Issaries, Moon Design, Mongoose, etc) split in a handful of categories that help figure out what you're getting in terms of Gloranthan canon-ness ("currently canon", "compatible with current canon", "mostly compatible, see notes", "mostly incompatible"), dates covered (second age, third age, which dates, etc.). I understand that it's possibly a massive amount of work, though. The Glorantha Wiki actually helps a bit there sometimes.

 

(1) I've been gaming for a couple decades and along the way collected a couple HeroQuest books to flip through casually, but I started looking at RQ and Glorantha "seriously" only recently thanks to the Chaosium revival.

Edited by lordabdul
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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

As a late-comer to Glorantha(1), I have to say that the 2 most confusing or annoying parts of the product line are:

  • Recommendations of out-of-print products. You can thankfully get the PDFs (and I'm super thankful for that, I hope more PDFs show up eventually) but I find that it's not as fun to flip through, and not as practical for "reference" type books. I understand that it's still better than "nope, there's nothing about Sartarite culture available right now" but I think it might be worth it to always add a disclaimer that only the PDF is available. And I don't mean to criticize specifically people who posted about Sartar books here, I appreciate the information and help, I'm just sharing how, at first, I would often feel a bit of disappointment tracing back some book reference to a PDF-only page (or worse).
  • The tribal knowledge surrounding the convoluted publication history of both Runequest and Glorantha material. Sometimes there's material that has been re-published with minor edits, sometimes there's new material that invalidates older material, etc. I would absolutely LOVE to see a list of all the books ever made by the usual suspects (Chaosium, Issaries, Moon Design, Mongoose, etc) split in a handful of categories that help figure out what you're getting in terms of Gloranthan canon-ness ("currently canon", "compatible with current canon", "mostly compatible, see notes", "mostly incompatible"), dates covered (second age, third age, which dates, etc.). I understand that it's possibly a massive amount of work, though. The Glorantha Wiki actually helps a bit there sometimes.

 

(1) I've been gaming for a couple decades and along the way collected a couple HeroQuest books to flip through casually, but I started looking at RQ and Glorantha "seriously" only recently thanks to the Chaosium revival.

I can understand your issue absolutely. Are you are aware of this thread:

As far as I can say all publications listed here are available at least in PDF format (except the computer games obviously 🙂). The list gives no clear hint, if a publication is available in hard copy format too, but maybe we can convince @Trifletraxor (who maintains this page) to add this information.

You can check on the Chaosium web site always, but for a start going through the publications from above page:

  • the system-less books at the top are all available in printed as well as in PDF format
  • the RuneQuest books are all available in printed as well as in PDF format
  • the four Glorantha Classic books (listed under RuneQuest Classic):
    • Griffin Mountain and Pavis & Big Rubble are out of print and therefore available in PDF format only
    • Borderlands & Beyond and The Cult Compandium are still available in printed format as well as in PDF format
  • RuneQuest Classics
    • RuneQuest - 2nd Edition and The RuneQuest Old School Resource Pack are available in printed format as well as in PDF format
    • all other publications are available in PDF format only currently, but there were plans to make them available in printed format too, but no idea, when (and if at all) this will happen ...
  • HeroQuest Glorantha
    • the Sartar books and the Pavis book are out of print currently and therefore available in PDF format only
    • Wyrms Footnotes 15 is available in PDF format only, but could be order as Print On Demand via Lulu
    • all other entries from this group are available in print as well as in PDF format
  • HeroQuest: all listed publications are out of print and mostly not canonical anymore. Nonetheless are the PDF version available in the HeroQuest and Glorantha Vault
  • HeroWars: all listed publications are out of print and mostly not canonical anymore. Nonetheless are the PDF version available in the HeroQuest and Glorantha Vault
  • The Stafford Library: all publications are available only in PDF format (except for King of Sartar, which is available in printed format also). But all publications can be ordered ss Print On Demand via Lulu
  • 13th Age Glorantha: available in print as well as in PDF format.

I hope this helps (and that I've got everything right here ... 😉)

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2 hours ago, Oracle said:

Are you are aware of this thread

I was not, even though the thread is pinned! That will teach me to never click anything else besides "Unread Content", and maybe sometimes go in each sub-forum to see what's up with my own eyes. Thanks a lot for pointing it out!

AFAICT The Cult Compendium isn't available in physical form anymore (it doesn't show up as orderable on the Chaosium website for me, at least). I think it might be obsoleted by the upcoming Gods & Goddesses of Glorantha anyway, no?

I think a big part of my confusion was the subtle distinction between "HeroQuest" books and "HeroQuest Glorantha" books. But it's a bit clearer thanks to your explanations and that thread (and also actually looking at the covers of the books -- they have completely different designs). I guess the categorization of the Chaosium online store now makes more sense to me :D  

Thanks again!

Edited by lordabdul

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