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Wergild amongst Orlanthi peole


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23 hours ago, Joerg said:

Storm worshippers are bullies. This is somewhat mitigated in the Orlanthi culture by the influence of Ernalda, but then Ernalda herself can also have a vicious streak and a long memory for insults. While there are myths where Ernalda is eager to show her loaded Storm husband another way, there are other incidents where she releases that loaded weapon to get the better of long-standing foes, as in "The Making of the Storm Tribe" where she tricks her old enemies of Darkness into attacking the assembled bunch of violent leaders and their followers. Two flies with a slap - storm guys united, dark folk beaten.

Agree. The situation here isn't one of rule of law – law is just one possible alternative to violence. If you have the law on your side but not the force of arms... that a clack will get you a cup of coffee. It's not about justice, it's about power and threats of violence.

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9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The important thing to remember is why you pay wergild – you do it because because you want to avoid having violent trouble with someone. It's a way to "pay them off". If you're a successful War Clan, you likely just don't pay – what are they going to do, fight you? That's what you're already doing! If the opposing clan is too weak or too far away to be a problem, there's little need to pay wergild – those guys aren't a problem! 

Violence is always an option, but there is always another way...

For example, point out to the Issaries that the clan is dishonorable, and doesn't pay their legitimate obligations.  Shortages of staple goods, needing to send their own people to other clans to trade (instead of mechants arriving with goods) &c...

Reputational damage works both ways -- the injured clan looks weaker, but the strong clan looks dishonorable, and that might bite their asses with ANY clan in coming decades..

 

Edited by g33k
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On 4/14/2019 at 4:28 AM, Joerg said:

Fair is fair. Perhaps "outcry" would have been the better phrase - for all my practice writing English, this isn't my native language.

 

My apologies, Jeorge. I misunderstood.

I know the hassle of trying to get along in another language. My 'StraBedeutsche' is pretty awful nowadays and my Spanish is worse.

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  • 4 years later...

Resurrecting an old thread...

Is there a Official Protocol for paying weregild?

(or, did one of you ever make one up in one of their games?)

 

One of our Colymar PCs, Robbie Two-Braid, killed a Cinsina guard during A great cattle theft.  While Argrath has smoothed over things for the theft, Robbie needs to, and wants to, pay weregild for the death, and has collected the appropriate cash and cows.

  1. Does Robbie go in person, or use a more neutral intermediary?
  2. Is the weregild paid to
    1. the family (I think this is true historically on earth) or
    2. the clan / tribe?  (makes some sense on Glorantha, after all, it's inter-tribal strife we are really trying to avoid)
  3. Is there a formal ritual, some Orlanthi "Bad Poetry"?etc...

Thanks.  Mainly looking for ideas for our next session.

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3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Resurrecting an old thread...

Is there a Official Protocol for paying weregild?

(or, did one of you ever make one up in one of their games?)

 

One of our Colymar PCs, Robbie Two-Braid, killed a Cinsina guard during A great cattle theft.  While Argrath has smoothed over things for the theft, Robbie needs to, and wants to, pay weregild for the death, and has collected the appropriate cash and cows.

  1. Does Robbie go in person, or use a more neutral intermediary?
  2. Is the weregild paid to
    1. the family (I think this is true historically on earth) or
    2. the clan / tribe?  (makes some sense on Glorantha, after all, it's inter-tribal strife we are really trying to avoid)
  3. Is there a formal ritual, some Orlanthi "Bad Poetry"?etc...

Thanks.  Mainly looking for ideas for our next session.

1. Robbie can do this in person, if he is brave or sure enough. Or he can use intermediaries who might be able to more safely approach the aggrieved clan.

2. The weregild is paid to the other clan - usually to their chief, but sometimes directly to the immediate family leaders.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

1. Robbie can do this in person, if he is brave or sure enough. Or he can use intermediaries who might be able to more safely approach the aggrieved clan.

2. The weregild is paid to the other clan - usually to their chief, but sometimes directly to the immediate family leaders.

Thank you!

I gave the player a heads up, so he has a week to prepare a short speech or bad poetry.

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On 6/11/2023 at 2:03 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I gave the player a heads up, so he has a week to prepare a short speech or bad poetry.

If you are going to have to pay, simply pay the Lunars half the amount to pick a fight and kill the guy, take his head so they can't be resurrected... done and done.

You save money, have no repercussions and bestly - much more better you don't have to embarrass yourself writing and orating bad poetry!

Orlanthi are bullies, they take what they want from weaker groups, land, cattle, spouses... nearly every publication has cattle raid... it's like the Hatfield–McCoy feud on most clan boarders the way it has played out over the years, on top of that the Lunars have incensed the clan squabbles and made it easier. Divide and conquer. The Orlanthi deserve what they get based on their inability to be united.

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On 4/11/2019 at 10:24 PM, GianniVacca said:

Good question. We had a Humakti-sanctioned duel in our RQ:G game last night and our warrior killed Branduan Hodirson. Now the GM has this threat of having to pay wergild looming over us.

Well that shouldn't culturally be the case.  A duel is a fight conducted in public with witnesses.  There is no issue of secret murder, and the participants are operating under the golden rule that they are prepared to do unto others as may be done unto themselves.  A death in a duel is under the protective aegis of the Death God, and should be considered a form of ritual performance.

Weregild is for when violence is unsanctioned.  When a drunken Uroxi kills a serving boy with a backhanded punch to the head... Weregild.  When two hotheaded farmers arguing over a fence line draw daggers and one dies... Weregild.  A formal and witnessed Humakti duel?  No weregild there.

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Historically wergild was also at times demanded in the case of duels, and in the Eleven Lights book it is mentioned that if certain characters are killed — even in a sanctioned duel on Isle Dangerous — that the family is likely to demand compensation.

Excepting secret murder, which is seen as chaotic and will probably get you a visit from the nice ladies with axes should you be found out, one of the main Orlanthi maxims is “Violence is always an option”. Duels can escalate into feuds, which can escalate into wars. As such, wergild is a manifestation of Ernalda’s maxim, “There’s always another way”, in this case a way to keep the escalations managed while still answering a challenge. All the same, “Nobody can make you do anything you don’t want to do”, and it’s best to be prepared to answer for an insult if payment is not offered.

Edited by hipsterinspace
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2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Excepting secret murder, which is seen as chaotic and will probably get you a visit from the nice ladies with axes

Why them?  Not saying secret murder is good, somebody may investigate and bring the perps to justice, but it is (usually) neither oath breaking nor an offense against the Earth temples.  

If there is a BG duty to avenge secret murder, that's actually interesting news for an upcoming campaign.  I'm just unaware of it.

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51 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why them?  Not saying secret murder is good, somebody may investigate and bring the perps to justice, but it is (usually) neither oath breaking nor an offense against the Earth temples.  

If there is a BG duty to avenge secret murder, that's actually interesting news for an upcoming campaign.  I'm just unaware of it.

Secret murder is a breach of Heort’s laws, a violation of the oaths the people take to become full adult members of their community, I don’t see how that would be outside of the Gorites’ purview. Adding to that, the Axe Sisters are some of the best investigators around, responsible for tracking down and killing rapists, kinslayers, oathbreakers, and those who transgress against the earth. They worship a vengeful goddess born in the bloody entrails of her murdered mother.

I would imagine known secret-murderers are probably not always killed by Gorites, sometimes they might be killed by Humakti or Storm Bulls, maybe even killed by a relative of their victim(s), bonded into slavery, or just banished and outlawed: it probably depends on the magnitude of the offense.

One thing that has been made clear is that executions do not qualify for demanding wergild and that there are some offenses that wergild can’t stand in for.

Edited by hipsterinspace
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MGF requires that different Orlanthi clans do things differently. But all will take secret murder seriously. Some will have the family leading the investigation. Others will have dedicated people who do it, probably outsider types to avoid lynchings, too quick resolutions and an incomplete or wrong  finding that would hurt the clan even more.

That allows you to have a Duck Humakti hardboiled PI, a Lhankor Mhy Holmes analogue, and yes, the respected and neutral Gorites bringing the Fear of the Goddess to the oathbreakers. 

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4 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Historically wergild was also at times demanded in the case of duels, and in the Eleven Lights book it is mentioned that if certain characters are killed — even in a sanctioned duel on Isle Dangerous — that the family is likely to demand compensation.

this point is for me very weird (Not the statement, it is, but the morale reason)

 

It means that Hasshole, from clan A, decides to provoke another guy, "Innocent the third" from clan B. Insults, spits, scramble, threats, ...

And as Innocent kept calm, Hasshole "orders" a duel...

 

So what could do Innocent to stay honorable ?

Ask clan A for a wergild as offense was made ?

Go to his own ring to "cry" ?

Refuse the duel even if he knows he is better warrior than Hasshole ?

Who will not laugh ? (from an orlanthi pespective)

so there is a duel... and of course Hasshole ends up in a hole...

 

Now clan A claims for wergild ? But why ? Even if there is a loss, the only responsible is the lost ! Responsability is Orlanth's value.

Innoncent is innocent right ?  that is what I don't understand, why wergild is allowed in that case

Would clan B would claim for wergild too because clan A's guy offensed it, its guy, etc ... And at the end that is just a negociation ? Even if their is, from my irl perspective, I admit, only one bad guy in this case ?

 

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19 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Now clan A claims for wergild ? But why ? Even if there is a loss, the only responsible is the lost ! Responsability is Orlanth's value.

Innoncent is innocent right ?  that is what I don't understand, why wergild is allowed in that case

Would clan B would claim for wergild too because clan A's guy offensed it, its guy, etc ... And at the end that is just a negociation ? Even if their is, from my irl perspective, I admit, only one bad guy in this case ?

Such a thing is clear grounds for a feud!

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34 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Now clan A claims for wergild ? But why ? Even if there is a loss, the only responsible is the lost ! Responsability is Orlanth's value.

Innoncent is innocent right ?  that is what I don't understand, why wergild is allowed in that case

I think you're coming about this in the wrong way. It's not about who was in the right, culpability, sin, or anything like that - it's about how one clan lost a (hopefully) productive member and demands recompense, or else.

We can sharpen the example even further. A tries to bushwhack and kill B for some stupid reason. B manages to kill A in self-defence. At this point, B is exactly as much on the hook for wergild for killing A as A would have been for successfully killing B. That B acted in self-defence, had no real choice in the matter, and so on, has no bearing whatsoever on the issue of wergild. What matters is that someone got killed.

(Although one difference is that B:s chief is far less likely to grumble about paying than A:s might have been. One of the tragedies of the system is that even if A:s kin are well aware he was an idiot who had it coming, they still have to uphold honor.) 

Edited by Akhôrahil
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12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think you're coming about this in the wrong way. It's not about who was in the right, culpability, sin, or anything like that - it's about how one clan lost a (hopefully) productive member and demands recompense, or else.

 

I agree, the what I don't understand is exactly this point :

if someone jumps from a cliff and die, who does pay the wergild ? noone of course ... or the cliff nymph ? no

if someone goes in another clan house, and with stupidy make voluntary fire and dies, is there a wergild?

now if someone, with the same stupidity, triggers a duel and its death, well someone has to pay.

 

I understand (maybe more "know" is better than "understand") the mechanic, but I don't understand how people conclude that this system is appropriate. Is it just to give opportunity of feud as @hipsterinspace  ? I have  clearly not the same honor than these guys ^^

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2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I understand (maybe more "know" is better than "understand") the mechanic, but I don't understand how people conclude that this system is appropriate. Is it just to give opportunity of feud as @hipsterinspace  ?

The core of an honor society is this:

There is no central authority to enforce Rule of Law. Therefore, people would be free to steal and kill without consequence unless something is done about it. You can only protect against it to a limited extent (it's going to be somewhere between very hard and impossible to look after all your sheep all the time, for instance). But what you can do, is to credibly threaten retribution. If whoever considers stealing a sheep, or killing your uncle, considers you and your kin very likely to exact revenge, they should at least think twice before doing it.

Of course, the problem is that they still might do it - they might not believe you have the will and means to exact revenge, or they may think it's still worth it. Now, you have two options - exact the promised revenge, or let it go. The problem is that if you let it go, you have now presented yourself to everyone as a readily available victim - after all, that threat of retribution has proven empty. This is what "loss of honor" fundamentally means. And it's really bad, not just for you, but also for your kin, who may feel that your failure to get revenge taints them as well. So you go and kill someone in the offender's clan to secure your honor. Perhaps even enhance it - after all, afterwards your ability to get revenge is no longer merely theoretical.

Of course, now they are in the exact same situation, and it doesn't matter if the original offender was an asshat who had it coming - their honor will still take a huge hit if they leave the killing unavenged. It's almost immaterial what they think of the original offender - fundamentally, the revenge isn't about that guy, it's about them and how others regard their capital of violence.

Rinse and repeat. The problem with this, of course, is that it means a feud that will either be unending or only stop when one side is wiped out completely. This is where wergild comes in. Instead of yet another killing, you accept monetary (or cattletary) compensation for the victim (this is why the wergild has to be commensurate with his or her value to the clan). This serves the same kind of purpose - it proves that people can't kill your kin freely. Yes, perhaps it's a bit less impressive than a revenge killing, and perhaps the chief actually have to tell people that this is the way it's going to be for the good of the clan, but ultimately, it serves the same kind of purpose, and it's at least possible to keep the violence down a bit (although it might not work - compare the Icelandic saga where the same purse of silver is passed back and forth as the killings continue and wergild is paid). As societal organization increases, kings might use their threat of force to get entire clans to settle a feud, backing up the judgement with the larger capital of violence. Perhaps eventually, after a looong time, this might mutate into Rule of Law, where it's the state that wields its monopoly of violence for retribution instead of individuals and clans.

So back the question. People in an honor society can't just say "that guy had it coming, no need for wergild" - this damages their honor and opens them up to victimization. Even if they genuinely believe he had it coming and wish they didn't have to go through the hassle. What it might do is make them more amenable to just wergild and not revenge killings (because honestly, do we really need a feud over that guy?). And this means that the other clan can't just say "we're not going to pay wergild for that asshat", because the clan will feel the pressure to get revenge even if they didn't care one bit about said asshat.

Is this a good system? Compared to no system at all, it probably is. Compared to a modern Rule of Law? Hell no! But you need a certain threshold of social organization and centralized power in order to fully enact Rule of Law, and most Gloranthan societies just don't have it. And there's just no way to get out of the honor system in the short or medium duration, because as long as your perceived honor is the primary force of deterrence, it's going to have severe consequences if you stop playing by the rules. The honor system traps people in it.

With a duel, though, this doesn't necessarily have to happen, it all depends on the exact social codes. For instance, unlike with murder, both parties go in to it knowingly and (more or less) willingly. It's easy to picture either the situation where wergild is still demanded and expected, or a situation (made easier by formal structures and witnesses) where the form of the duel and/or the oaths of both parties state that regardless of outcome, wergild is off the table. Of course, in the latter the kin of the killed party could still decide they want to make a mess of things and demand wergild or vengeance (because violence is always an option), but at least they might not be under actual pressure to do so if their honor isn't considered at stake.

(BTW, this whole thing is also why it's a massive deal to not accept a duel - clearly you're not ready to stand up for yourself. The risk of death might well be preferable.)

Edited by Akhôrahil
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On 6/16/2023 at 10:24 AM, Akhôrahil said:

We can sharpen the example even further. A tries to bushwhack and kill B for some stupid reason. B manages to kill A in self-defence. At this point, B is exactly as much on the hook for wergild for killing A as A would have been for successfully killing B. That B acted in self-defence, had no real choice in the matter, and so on, has no bearing whatsoever on the issue of wergild. What matters is that someone got killed.

Seems like a good time for Issaries to exercise their golden tongue:

  • Look, if our guy, B, had let A kill her to save us $$$, you would have been on the hook for $$$. But B is a thoughtful chap, so purely in the interest of inter-clan relations — not wanting to wind you up by costing you $$$ — she generously killed A. You ask us for $$$. We point out we just saved you $$$. It all cancels out, no $$$ need to change hands, and we can all laugh about it over a drink, which we can now afford. But just a small one, as we don’t want to start any more fights.
  • Still not convinced? Look, I didn’t like to mention it, but B clearly saved you far more than $$$. I mean, it is $$$ and $$$ and $$$. And your clan’s good name. A was clearly an Arkat — did I say “Arkat”? Sorry, I meant “arsehat”, of course — and would have pulled the stunt on loads more people, probably bankrupting you all. So you should give B a medal or something. Or at least buy her a drink. Hers is a dandelion & burdock. Cheers!
Edited by mfbrandi
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NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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13 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

the Axe Sisters are some of the best investigators around

Has somebody run a BG Investigator type PC?  If so, what skills or spells did they use?  Listen, Search, and Track look like useful cult skills, but, beyond that, it seems lacking.  Not that many other cults seem greatly better for investigation, maybe LM and Issaries?

Most discussions I have seen of BG PCs focus on whether they are better combatants than Humakti.

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11 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Listen, Search, and Track look like useful cult skills, but, beyond that, it seems lacking. 

It’s crazy that Intimidate isn’t a cult skill for them (although at least they gain a chargen bonus).

I would imagine they rely a fair bit on Divination, which will work particularly well as it’s BGs domain to seek these offenders out. I don’t see Secret Murder as one of their core areas, though.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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On 6/16/2023 at 8:06 AM, hipsterinspace said:

the Axe Sisters are some of the best investigators around, responsible for tracking down and killing rapists

Sounds more Death Wish or Dirty Weekend than The Big Sleep or The Body in the Library. More the Punisher than Dangerous Davies.

For a detective in the Philip Marlowe mould — complete with antiquated notions of masculine behaviour; the name ‘Philip’ picked to indicate chivalry (:20-sub-horse:)? — why not a solar cultist? “[D]own these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid”? Not that anyone would ever suggest such a thing.

Edited by mfbrandi
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23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:
On 6/16/2023 at 9:52 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Now clan A claims for wergild ? But why ? Even if there is a loss, the only responsible is the lost ! Responsability is Orlanth's value.

Innoncent is innocent right ?  that is what I don't understand, why wergild is allowed in that case

I think you're coming about this in the wrong way. It's not about who was in the right, culpability, sin, or anything like that - it's about how one clan lost a (hopefully) productive member and demands recompense, or else.

It's also about pride and saving face. If someone kills a clan member, what are you going to do? Are you going to let it slide and lose face? That would mean that other people can kill clan members with impunity. No, you are going to demand compensation. Even if a weak clan demand compensation and isn't paid, they have saved face.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Sounds more Death Wish or Dirty Weekend than The Big Sleep or The Body in the Library. More the Punisher than Dangerous Davies.

For a detective in the Philip Marlowe mould — complete with antiquated notions of masculine behaviour; the name ‘Philip’ picked to indicated chivalry (:20-sub-horse:)? — why not a solar cultist? “[D]own these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid”? Not that anyone would ever suggest such a thing.

As the seekers of truth, Lhankorings can be that other sort of investigator, they’re the cult who have the magic for it. Figuring out who killed someone is ultimately yet another form of knowledge and rests within the Knowing God’s purview, though it would probably be a rather strange thing to specialize in.

That said, Dragon Pass really doesn’t have anything resembling systematic justice. Having a judge, jury, and executioner in the form of a very scary woman with an axe dispensing frontier justice makes for a straightforward and rather effective deterrent: if you do something bad enough, there will be no wergild to pay, no honor to satisfy, no mercy to call on.

Having a duo of the two is ripe for some comedy, I can definitely imagine some buddy cop action happening in Nochet with an oddly hard-boiled Lhankoring and unusually thoughtful Gorite uncovering assassination plots and navigating the endless intrigues of a Great House

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6 hours ago, soltakss said:

It's also about pride and saving face. If someone kills a clan member, what are you going to do? Are you going to let it slide and lose face? That would mean that other people can kill clan members with impunity. No, you are going to demand compensation. Even if a weak clan demand compensation and isn't paid, they have saved face.

it depends on perspective 🙂 my personal one is far from this "honor"

that's why I asked, I m too far of this logic

 

if you want to know mine barbaric face (but of course that means not in glorantha, I want to follow the official background, but I need to understand it well. And it is not irl too, at least until we are in a civilized and centralized society, don't call the police 😛 ) :

Spoiler

a) duel is a voluntary agreement,, it can be done between clans or between two people

b) the issue may be the death, but in all cases, once the duel finished, if every thing was fair, every thing is over.

 

now... if to obtain a personal duel, without my agreement as chief, my guy insulted more than "acceptable" the other clan, then his death may be not enough, and I will pay to close the business (money, good, magic, favor...). My guy was dumb, I have to pay for it, not to obtain money because  he was not only dumb but unable to fight well.

 

but in another way, if the other clan ring wants something unfair, and at the end, create a "feud" for this bad thing, I swear to kill all of the clan ring, and as this clan is unable to understand the difference between personnal responsability and community responsability, I will kill any relative able to one day "replay" this feud, even baby grandson of the chief. Of course any neighbour would know it before any issue 😛

So yes I m not aggressive but if you want me to show something else than Issaries + Ernalda, it will not be Orlanth but Umath +Shargash

 

I dislike people who engage others lives but not their own. That's not my view of honor "I take my responsabilities" has no sense, if the impact is not only for your own personal life.

 

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