Yelmalio and Other War Gods Who Lack Shield Spell

[metcalph]

36 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Why was this not in the core?

Possibly because the cult of Yelm in the rulebook is the God of the Grazers (as opposed to Dara Happa) who has little to do with Yelmalio. 

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Because his "worshipper cry-babies" hadn't gotten to Jeff yet!   #BigYelmalio #Conspiracy

Amen!

 

 

[icebrand]

Hi there! I don't post much but i GMed rq3 from '97 to '16 or so.

I had a hardcore group of 3 players but GMed for quite a few people (i even had a couple of 12 player sessions when i merged everyone for a campaign finale).

Anyway, TLDR: i can't remember a single theist PC without access to shield. People just didnt pick those cults!!! Other gms also treated those cults as npc cults / secondary too.

 

 

[Darius West]

On 4/12/2019 at 8:28 AM, RHW said:

Argan Argar is supposed to support spear-wielding mercenaries but has absolutely no war magic at all.

Argan Argar is not primarily a war deity.  Argan Argar is a troll deity of mediation between the trolls and the surface folk.  His "mercenaries" are swarms of spear armed trollkin, and they are just fine at what they do i.e. be cheap disposable arrow fodder.

On 4/12/2019 at 8:28 AM, RHW said:

Similar problem: Yinkin and Odayla are supposed to be hunting cults, but they don't have any missile weapon Rune Magic at all. If you want to play a sniper/archer and you want Sureshot, it's Foundchild or nothing.

There is more than one way to hunt.  Yinkin is not primarily a god of hunting, but of shadowcats, while Odayla is a god of bears.  You don't necessarily need a ranged weapon to hunt as animals in the wild amply prove.  It is perfectly possible to hunt by scent or ambush or pursuit.  For example the classic trick of using beater to flush game towards a hide where the hunters wait in ambush is a classic.  Not every hunter is a sniper.

On 4/12/2019 at 8:28 AM, RHW said:

But the worst off is Yelmalio. Yelmalio is specifically a war cult, oriented toward heavy infantry. But without Shield, they don't have the staying power they need to go toe-to-toe with rune levels of any other war god.

Yelmalio is not a warrior god but a soldier god.  Yelmalios are supposed to fight in formation as part of a unit of phalangites, or as archer skirmishers.  Yelmalio Sun Lords are supposed to manage the files of these combat units.  Potentially, due to frontage, a person fighting a line of Yelmalios will be facing 3-9 sarissa attacks per round, and it only takes a single impale to ruin their whole day.  In short Yelmalions fighting as individuals don't get shield as a spell, but that is an advantage that Elmal worshippers should have over them.

On 4/12/2019 at 8:28 AM, RHW said:

Another example: Want to punch through that Shield? Well you'd better be in Babeestor Gor, because only she has a spell capable of countering high levels of Shield. (Slash is MUCH better than TrueWeapon) And her cult restrictions are pretty narrow so she's not a good choice for an awful lot of players. KL and ZZ will likely have Crush, so that's great, but they're also restrictive and if I remember right, neither has Shield.

Yeah Barbeester Gor is grossly and unapologetically OP, but they are rare enough that you can learn to live with it.  It also makes them more satisfying to kill.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Darius West

[Dissolv]

Although the specific criticisms are debatable, the core question is how Yelmalio can be a war god when he provides no war magic is legit.  "He organizes people to fight in pike formation" doesn't really cut it in Glorantha.   Is he the god of Light or a god of war?  He favors archery but provides no bonuses to it.  Same with the spear and pike. 

Either he is a secondary god that players everywhere have rightly avoided (unless for RP reasons), or he needs *something*.  A blinding ray or light or something. 

On the other hand, Elmal has been totally pumped up as a loyal, nearly unkillable, chaos facing bad-@$$ ever since King of Dragon Pass, and Six Ages: Ride like the WInd didn't exactly diminish him either! He beats up Shargash in one of the Heroquests, and this isn't the action of a lightweight.

It isn't Yelmalio "whiners", it's that hard nugget of illogic that people are having a hard time with -- more Elmal/Yelmalio fall out I am afraid .  The various proposed solutions are more about bridging that gap than specifically "Yelmalio needs to be better".   Well, on second thought, he seems like he needs *something* to hang his hat on.  A blinding Ray of Light, ability to see the truth (as per the myth), or even ability to survive wounds others might not, just.....something.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Dissolv

[Joerg]

It is nice when your cult overlaps with your vocation in a major way, but I don't think that it is necessary for a Gloranthan to be initiated to the one deity that happens to do the same job. You can be a merchant without being initiated to Issaries. You can be initiated to Issaries without being a merchant (take for instance the Desert Trackers).

Quite a few Yelmalio initated worshipers and a good portion of the Orlanth initiated worshipers are farmers or herders for their main vocation. They can be merchants, poets, entertainers, fishermen, or hunters. Their normal work life may be less interwoven with their religious life than some guy who can deal with his religious duties while earning his food and lodging, so their religious duties may be more special to them than that other guy's everyday life.

Is it viable for player characters wishing to become larger than life heroes? I would say yes. They may have to rely more on others, or their communities, but that can be made into a strength as much as it is a weakness.

 

The shield spell is admittedly very nifty for a front line fighter, or a duelist. And if you regularly put on shield 4 before a fight and you have a charisma of 16, you can have up to one hour of fighting under the protection of your shield spells. Unless you add Extension or some "Arming of" rite like Ernalda's "Bless Champion", that's it for your combat magic.

So, does your warrior have Shield up for every fight? Probably not. Wil he have rune points left when it comes to the boss fight? What if the boss fight sees the antagonist realizing that his opponents are all magicked up, and retreat until that magic wears off? Bwahahaha...

Having the right magic for a job is great. Becoming the appropriate god for the magical action is one of the common ways to change the world.

You could for instance become a Lightbringer. That's a warrior's job, right, or a noble's? Then tell me the name and occupation of the most important heroquester doing two Lightbringers' Quests in his lifetime. (Hint: the nom-de--guerre could belong to a hobbit. His occupation, too.)

There are other ways to acquire heroic abilities than following the normal cult format. Harrek is not a normal Rathori longbowman mercenary, and quite likely never has been, although he will have hunted in his youth. Will your player character be able to emulate Harrek's feat of binding a great spirit or deity to himself? Probably not by ritual taxidermy, but there may be other ways.

Not all Gloranthans rely on the most convenient magic all the time. Those who don't often end up as major heroes, and some of them established a new convenient magic for those who emulate them in later generations. Think forward. Find a new magic within the frame of your magical practices and your heroic exploits, and bring it into the world.

That's what Heroes are in Glorantha.

[Dissolv]

Yeah, I kinda feel like the the old baseball quote on that one. 

"Ask a baseball question, get a money answer.  Ask a money question, get a baseball answer."

Mechanically --game mechanically mind you -- Yelmalio is just a second rate god for warriors or adventurers.  He just doesn't offer anything other than "fighting in pike blocks", which you have to wonder, what does he have to do with anyway?  Can't they form up without the correct sacrifices or something?  And since the enormity of fighting by PC's is heroic in nature, as opposed to set-piece battles, is he simply not supposed to be a good god for player characters?

Certainly it can be a fun arc to heroquest to try to make his cult better, maybe combine the Elmal aspects with the Yelmalio aspects for "Yelmalalio" or such.  But if the GM wants to play it straight.......well........he offers next to nothing for his archery clientele, which is supposedly the other aspect of his fighting style.  Actually not true -- he offers significant limitations over a wholly uninitiated archer.  They can take firearrow at least, by far the most effective spirit magic spell once things get within effective range.  He is clearly substandard for day to day adventuring.  And yes, the Shield spell is vital for surviving serious encounters.   If you are confronted with a Rune Lord Priest of Thanatar and his vile minions, you don't "save" rune points for a rainy day.  This IS the rainy day, and dying with points left in the tank is not a good way to go out.  Which character is the most vulnerable in this sort of do or die scenario?   Any of them without shield.  You simply have two good options for your first round.  A spell like Lightning or Sever Spirit to blitz the big bad Rune Lord Priest, or Shield for the long game.  Those with allied spirits may try both, or Shield and a buffing spell, like Truesword or Bladesharp.  That's a common response as well.  Yelmalio doesn't have either option.  In fact he lacks a protective, an offensive, AND a self-buffing option.  Pretty much a Yelmalio following character caught in that kind of a confrontation is looking at spirit magic.  That in a nutshell is the problem.  When it is do or die, you bail on the Rune magic of your war god and reach for the spirit magic (!!!!) 

This may be intentional -- not everything is supposed to be balanced maybe?  But he simply isn't as good as the other possible options.

Now one can argue that fishermen and housewives and hairdressers worship him, but the question remains -- why?  Why would they?  There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of other spirits/heroes/demi-gods/gods to worship in Glorantha, so why follow this one?  But that's a lore question.  My main one is:  why should player characters?  Mine certainly don't, and I got into this game with Ruric Runespear and the Hoplite on the cover.   I like the cult in general, event that he lost his fire Rune and is still kicking along at partial power.  It adds character.  I don't agree with many of the proposed solutions presented, but his appeal as written right now is very much built around the gift/geas being worth it to take him, and his simply don't stack up to Humakt's, while the geases are potentially quite rough. 

In short, he is someone you take because you want to role play a Yelmalio character.  ANY other war god is a better choice for in game effectiveness at the tasks that players are supposed to lean on their divine patron for.  That's just how he is, and he did take a step back even more in RQ:G with the loss of the sheild spell.  That seems very apparent to me.  

Suggestion: Take this debate to Wind Words!!!!

[allenowen]

"Game balance" is overrated. Too D&D, too video gamey.

[Lordabdul]

Has Yelmalio always been such a sore point with RQ players? (it's not the first thread on this topic)  As far as I can tell, the Yelmalio cult in RQG is virtually identical to the write-ups in both RQ3's Gods of Glorantha, and RQ2's Cult Compendium... (if anything, it gained a couple new spells and things in RQG). So surely that can't be a new "problem"?  (AFAICT Yelmalio didn't get Shield from Yelm back then... just Sunspear)

I think the one and only big thing that Yelmalio provides is the ability to use a Pike with a Shield. That's a pretty cool ability (especially when you look up the Pike's stats) but it may not have the same charm as a fancy spell. The downside is that Yelmalio being the God of Soldiers Who Fight in Phalanx Formation is kind of lost on player characters who are hanging out by themselves with a bunch of random other people from various other cults.... hard to make a phalanx by yourself. It might be more interesting if all the PCs are Light Servants from the same unit. Otherwise it's maybe more for NPCs, or if you're indeed willing to play the "fish out of water" guy.

2 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Suggestion: Take this debate to Wind Words!!!!

Haha well that could be arranged   (/cc @Bill the barbarian @Joerg).

Edited May 18, 2020 by lordabdul

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Has Yelmalio always been such a sore point with RQ players? (it's not the first thread on this topic)  As far as I can tell, the Yelmalio cult in RQG is virtually identical to the write-ups in both RQ3's Gods of Glorantha, and RQ2's Cult Compendium... (if anything, it gained a couple new spells and things in RQG). So surely that can't be a new "problem"?  (AFAICT Yelmalio didn't get Shield from Yelm back then... just Sunspear)

I think the one and only big thing that Yelmalio provides is the ability to use a Pike with a Shield. That's a pretty cool ability (especially when you look up the Pike's stats) but it may not have the same charm as a fancy spell. The downside is that Yelmalio being the God of Soldiers Who Fight in Phalanx Formation is kind of lost on player characters who are hanging out by themselves with a bunch of random other people from various other cults.... hard to make a phalanx by yourself. It might be more interesting if all the PCs are Light Servants from the same unit. Otherwise it's maybe more for NPCs, or if you're indeed willing to play the "fish out of water" guy.

Well in RQ2 Shield was a generic spell that everyone got. I'm not sure if that held true for RQ3, but I know Yelmalio at least had it. I think the biggest problem now is because of the increased access to Rune magic. Now players are relying more on it, since they don't have to wait until Rune Priest status to get it as a renewable resource, and so gods with suboptimal spell selections stand out more. And if we're talking RQ2, there is one more thing in that the Sunspear he got from Yelm was available not just to the high priest but the Light Keeper, Light Captain, and regular priests serving under the Light Captain, so players could get access to it potentially. I doubt that's a reason for the upset however.

[jajagappa]

38 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Has Yelmalio always been such a sore point with RQ players? (it's not the first thread on this topic)  As far as I can tell, the Yelmalio cult in RQG is virtually identical to the write-ups in both RQ3's Gods of Glorantha, and RQ2's Cult Compendium... (if anything, it gained a couple new spells and things in RQG). So surely that can't be a new "problem"?  (AFAICT Yelmalio didn't get Shield from Yelm back then... just Sunspear)

Yelmalio was always my favorite out of Cults of Prax. (Hwarin Dalthippa the Conquering Daughter has always been my favorite, and obviously a soft spot for Jajagappa.)  

I never had any issues with Yelmalio's magic - it felt right given the Hill of Gold - and I always felt that the gifts/geases made Yelmalio interesting. My first attempt at a solo scenario (back before I had a gaming group) was centered on a Yelmalion funeral for a dead hero.  And Yelmalions were always prominent PC's in my Imther campaign.  (Eventually after the Elmal schism, I did create my own Yelmalio variant, Khelmal, but that deity was a clan hero/founder, not a soldier, and co-existed with Yelmalio who presided over the Sun Dome temple.)

I don't recall any great debates on the old forums regarding Yelmalio's magic (though there was certainly plenty of debate about Elmal after Greg's revelation).

[Lordabdul]

46 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Well in RQ2 Shield was a generic spell that everyone got.

Oh right, I didn't see that -- thanks. Huh, the RQ2 list of "standard Rune spells" is a lot different than the RQG one. I can't find where the standard Rune spells in RQ3 are though.

[GAZZA]

1 hour ago, allenowen said:

"Game balance" is overrated. Too D&D, too video gamey.

The idea that either video games or D&D represent game balance is hilarious.

[allenowen]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

The idea that either video games or D&D represent game balance is hilarious.

Nevertheless, game balance is overrated. I do think D&D players are too concerned about game balance. Sorry that made you want to mock me.  I'm not a fan of D&D, any edition, anymore, so maybe I'm biased. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by allenowen

[GAZZA]

17 minutes ago, allenowen said:

Nevertheless, game balance is overrated. I do think D&D players are too concerned about game balance. Sorry that made you want to mock me.  

"Game balance is overrated" is a very dismissive statement, but I wasn't mocking you. I was mocking the idea that D&D could ever be considered a bastion of game balance - if you ignore D&D4e (and virtually everybody did) D&D is a pretty good example of the opposite. I'm not even knocking D&D here - I'm just saying that anyone that offers up D&D as an example of a game designed to be balanced is mistaken. D&D is where we get the term "Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards" from. Whether or not a given warrior cult has access to a specific Rune spell such as Shield is really not on the same scale as D&D's balance issues - RQ is much better balanced than D&D has ever even aspired to be. (Which is not to say that I disagree with the posters suggesting Shield should probably be allowed to Yelmalions - or even as a generally available spell - this new Rune Point economy is testing Rune magic more than previous editions I think).

"Overrated" is a subjective term, but if one feels game balance is entirely irrelevant, then there's basically no point to (e.g.) spells costing different numbers of points. Make Shield block an infinite amount of damage and magic for a single point. Give it only to players that pay the GM's mortgage or something.

Of course that is an extreme position, but the point is that game balance does matter - obviously you can disagree to what extent it does (there's a human GM, so flagrant abusives can be disallowed, and there are human players, so flagrant disabuses can simply be avoided as not-fun).

Edited May 19, 2020 by GAZZA

[Ali the Helering]

I have to admit that I don't see the point of the debate.  If you want to play a combat monster, do so.  If you think Yelmalio is a suitable deity for your character, choose him. 

That's what role play is all about. 

If you want Yelmalio to have Shield, give it to him. If you want pacifist Uroxi, fine. 

Your Glorantha has varied. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, allenowen said:

Nevertheless, game balance is overrated.

It's not overrated when Yelmalio is on the list of good picks for gods for a warrior, but that character will then be constantly overshadowed in fights even by many non-warrior characters due to bad magic. Even if you don't believe in game balance, you should probably believe in niche protection.

[soltakss]

59 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's not overrated when Yelmalio is on the list of good picks for gods for a warrior, but that character will then be constantly overshadowed in fights even by many non-warrior characters due to bad magic. Even if you don't believe in game balance, you should probably believe in niche protection.

Yelmalio is a god of Light, that is what he is good at. He teaches Light and Lantern, grants Sunbright and Catseye.

Despite the protestations of Sun Domers, he is not that good as a martial deity. 

[GAZZA]

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yelmalio is a god of Light, that is what he is good at. He teaches Light and Lantern, grants Sunbright and Catseye.

Despite the protestations of Sun Domers, he is not that good as a martial deity. 

Fair enough. Who is the solar warrior deity then? Do they have a Humakt variant? Or do they just not think that war is important enough for its own god? (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious).

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Fair enough. Who is the solar warrior deity then? Do they have a Humakt variant? Or do they just not think that war is important enough for its own god? (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious).

Shargash, probably? Solars as a rule seem more fond of soldier and officer deities than warrior ones, but Yelmalio can't even do that.

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Despite the protestations of Sun Domers, he is not that good as a martial deity. 

Yes, exactly. He's presented as one in the rulebook and the lore, though. Hence the mismatch.

[Ali the Helering]

8 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Fair enough. Who is the solar warrior deity then? Do they have a Humakt variant? Or do they just not think that war is important enough for its own god? (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious).

Hastatus, Sagittus and, indeed, Shargash, with Polaris for the officer corps. 

[Joerg]

I think that the "Pike and Shield" abillity of Yelmalio is a bit paradox with respect to Yelmalio having lost his shield (to Orlanth, at the Hill of Gold),  but then so is the shiny armor that they like to don.

Given the Cults of Prax cult distribution, there are probably more beast rider initiates of Yelmalio in Prax than there are in Sun County (Prax). In Kerofinela and Saird, there are quite likely more rural (farmer or herder) initiates of Yelmalio than there are templars.

Obviously, the Cult of Yelmalio does offer some other incentive than becoming a pike-and-shield soldier. And that appears to be sun worship, the hill barbarian way to reach out to the life-giving sun through the stalwart protector son. As important in agriculture as is rain worship (Orlanth(Heler), a safeguard to be able to harvest hay or grain without having the harvest ruined by rain.

Trollfighter and Elf-Friend may be additional considerations to join Yelmalio.

For the Praxians, this is the theist companion to their spirits of light, Pole Star and the Jumper star daughters of Yelm, and the light-associated archery magics of the War Arrow medicine bundle. Beast-back archery is big for both the Impala riders (it's their main form of combat) and the Zebra riders. It is a skill, not a magic, though.

 

I never understood the attraction to or the rationale behind the randomly rolled gifts and geases. Sure, some of the gifts are nifty, in a poower-player way, and "Never trust"... is a weird geas. Shouldn't that tie into passions, and obligate use of them?

As for the random selection, I have the suspicion that things were rolled because you rolled on random tables in the early decades of the hobby. The RQ3 solution for Humakt initiates with gifts having their commensurate geases always made more sense to me.

Or maybe a selection of commensurate geases for each gift. Way to much detail, at least for a core rules product, though. The learning curve for RQ is steep enough as is.

 

One thing that I don't quite understand yet is how Monrogh affected the existing Yelmalio cult in the Far Place, Tarsh, and Peloria. How much did his heroquest impact them?

[soltakss]

48 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Fair enough. Who is the solar warrior deity then?

Shargash, for berserkers, Pole Star for soldiers, maybe Lodril for spearmen.

Even Yelorna is a better martial deity than Yelmalio, as she grants Shooting Star. Hopefully, she gets Shield as well, as that would be funny.

[soltakss]

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I think that the "Pike and Shield" abillity of Yelmalio is a bit paradox with respect to Yelmalio having lost his shield (to Orlanth, at the Hill of Gold),  but then so is the shiny armor that they like to don.

They wear their armour and carry a shield to remember what Yelmalio lost.

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Given the Cults of Prax cult distribution, there are probably more beast rider initiates of Yelmalio in Prax than there are in Sun County (Prax).

Probably. I have used Yelmalio the Rider as a cult in Prax for a long time, as templars make no sense in the wilds of Prax and the Wastes.

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

One thing that I don't quite understand yet is how Monrogh affected the existing Yelmalio cult in the Far Place, Tarsh, and Peloria. How much did his heroquest impact them?

Probably not much, certainly in Peloria. They always worshipped Yelmalio and knew he was a son of Yelm. There wasn't a strong Elmal presence there, so it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

In the Far Place or Tarsh, the Elmali might have gone south to join the newly founded sun Dome Temple, or they might have joined the Sun Domers of Alda Chur. I think that the fact that Alda Chur has such a strong sun Dome presence is due to the local Elmali, from Tarsh and the Far Place, joining them.