Yelmalio and Other War Gods Who Lack Shield Spell

[Kloster]

55 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As for the random selection, I have the suspicion that things were rolled because you rolled on random tables in the early decades of the hobby. The RQ3 solution for Humakt initiates with gifts having their commensurate geases always made more sense to me.

I completely agree here.

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

They wear their armour and carry a shield to remember what Yelmalio lost.

And they use their fire powers and the Shield magic in the same sens... no, wait.

Like I said, the situation is somewhat paradoxical.

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Probably. I have used Yelmalio the Rider as a cult in Prax for a long time, as templars make no sense in the wilds of Prax and the Wastes.

I wonder what the difference between an Impala worshiper of Yelmalio and a Pure Horse Folk worshiper of the Golden Bow is, and whether they could share worship sites and possiby rites.

 

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Probably not much, certainly in Peloria. They always worshipped Yelmalio and knew he was a son of Yelm. There wasn't a strong Elmal presence there, so it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

At least no longer after the Dragonkill (although a homeguard worshiper would have had a way better chance to be around after that wipe-out of martial manhood, and to rebuild and expand their cult).

Looking at Six Ages, it looks like Hyaloring horse folk either joined the Vingkotlings or switched over to Kargzant/Reladivus upon contact with the other horse warlords. Vuranoste and his sons may have been the last traditional Hyalorings in the Pelorian basin.

 

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In the Far Place or Tarsh, the Elmali might have gone south to join the newly founded sun Dome Temple, or they might have joined the Sun Domers of Alda Chur. I think that the fact that Alda Chur has such a strong sun Dome presence is due to the local Elmali, from Tarsh and the Far Place, joining them. 

What do you make of the Sun Dome Temple in Goldedge, then, a place and templar community in all likelihood founded under Arim or his Twins, way closer to all those Tarshites than Alda-chur? The unhappiness about consorting with people who don't hesitate much to bring in Chaos would have been a good reason for templars to leave the reach of the Conquering Daughter.

Firetop mountain near Alda-chur does offer a natural sacred place, but a Sun Dome Temple at Goldedge is quite the attraction, toó.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder what the difference between an Impala worshiper of Yelmalio and a Pure Horse Folk worshiper of the Golden Bow is, and whether they could share worship sites and possiby rites.

Well the example Impala Yelmalian we've seen has the gift "Communication with all impalas" rather than "Communication with all horses."

Which is in itself a bit different.

IMG warning:

In my Glorantha, I imagine the form of Yelmalio worshipped by the Impalas focuses more on birds and archery, since they're not good with pikes or horses. My guess is Sun Hawk is this aspect (also known as Tholm in Rindliddi) and associated with the giant Vrok Hawks.

They'd have a larger tendency towards the "Speak with birds" gift, Command Hawk as a rune spell, and the "never eat bird meat" or "only eat bird meat" geasa.

[OrlanthRex]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Fair enough. Who is the solar warrior deity then? Do they have a Humakt variant? Or do they just not think that war is important enough for its own god? (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious).

I always thought Londril would make a fun pc cult to role play. Sort of like the uncouth peasant-type who can blend in both the solar and storm cultures. He wouldn’t stick out too much running with a bunch of Storm types like a Yelmalio would. I haven’t seen his RQG cult write up, but if his Lodril rune spell list carries over, he should be able to hold his own in a fight with firespear, enhance gustbran, salamanders and shield (via Yelm). 

[Stephen L]

 

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Fair enough. Who is the solar warrior deity then?

Couldn't see the official answer of Tolat up there...

War is unfortunately as prominent in Solar life as any other culture.  Yelmalio is an obscure god on the margins of culture, on the edge of things, only important when everyone’s gone away to the underworld, or locked themselves away in the heavens beyond the sky, i.e. on the barbarian borderlands where they don’t know proper solar ways…  Or for players who LOVE ROLLING FOR GIFTS AND GEASES.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I never understood the attraction to or the rationale behind the randomly rolled gifts and geases

Is it just that I’m immature, but do you know how much fun it is rolling for the Gift and Geas?  Who cares about the rubbish rune spells *footnote*?  It’s that moment of tension rolling for the gifts and geases, wondering what those fickle gods will provide…  For me it’s an awesome moment of character creation.

I know I’m being immature.  My youngest player is 7, who is a Humakti duck (oh my word, is he good at it, he was born for it), and his expression when he rolled “eat no vegetables” as a geas.  That is a moment of pure joy that roleplaying can bring…

*Footnote*

I really don’t care about Yelmalio’s rune spells, my beef earlier in the thread is that I’d like a proper image of Yelmalio that’s mythically correct.  In my Glorantha, High King Elf gave Yelmalio a spear, shield and armour, because he didn’t really need his.  That’s why Yemalio looks so miserable in all the pictures, because his armour doesn’t really fit, and his spear has splinters in it…

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

My youngest player is 7, who is a Humakti duck (oh my word, is he good at it, he was born for it), and his expression when he rolled “eat no vegetables” as a geas.  That is a moment of pure joy that roleplaying can bring…

Probably wanted that geas for real-world! 

But I agree, I love the randomness of the gifts and geases for Yelmalio. (And also thought it appropriate that Humakti choose theirs - effectively choosing their Fate). 

8 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

That’s why Yelmalio looks so miserable in all the pictures, because his armour doesn’t really fit, and his spear has splinters in it…

There's a great story there! And Yelmalio perseveres despite it all.

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

What do you make of the Sun Dome Temple in Goldedge, then, a place and templar community in all likelihood founded under Arim or his Twins, way closer to all those Tarshites than Alda-chur? The unhappiness about consorting with people who don't hesitate much to bring in Chaos would have been a good reason for templars to leave the reach of the Conquering Daughter.

Not all Yelmalian temples were founded at the same time or by the same process.

I am not familiar with the temple at Goldedge, but the name of the place signifies some kind of Solar outpost, a perfect place for a Sun Dome Temple. It could have absorbed some Elmali when they were converted or shown the light by Monrogh.

 

[MOB]

13 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Well the example Impala Yelmalian we've seen has the gift "Communication with all impalas" rather than "Communication with all horses."

Which is in itself a bit different.

IMG warning:

 

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In my Glorantha, I imagine the form of Yelmalio worshipped by the Impalas focuses more on birds and archery, since they're not good with pikes or horses. My guess is Sun Hawk is this aspect (also known as Tholm in Rindliddi) and associated with the giant Vrok Hawks.

They'd have a larger tendency towards the "Speak with birds" gift, Command Hawk as a rune spell, and the "never eat bird meat" or "only eat bird meat" geasa.

 

The list of Yelmalio gifts and geases is by no means definitive or limited to what is there.

12 hours ago, Stephen L said:

Is it just that I’m immature, but do you know how much fun it is rolling for the Gift and Geas?  Who cares about the rubbish rune spells *footnote*?  It’s that moment of tension rolling for the gifts and geases, wondering what those fickle gods will provide…  For me it’s an awesome moment of character creation.

I know I’m being immature.  My youngest player is 7, who is a Humakti duck (oh my word, is he good at it, he was born for it), and his expression when he rolled “eat no vegetables” as a geas.  That is a moment of pure joy that roleplaying can bring…

The way of the gods is ineffable. And so many times do those random gifts and geases accentuate and bring out MGF in play.

12 hours ago, Stephen L said:

*Footnote*

I really don’t care about Yelmalio’s rune spells, my beef earlier in the thread is that I’d like a proper image of Yelmalio that’s mythically correct.  In my Glorantha, High King Elf gave Yelmalio a spear, shield and armour, because he didn’t really need his.  That’s why Yemalio looks so miserable in all the pictures, because his armour doesn’t really fit, and his spear has splinters in it…

Love it!

PS BTW, the version of the Yelmalio cult in RQ3's Sun County lists Shield as one of the cult's divine spells.

[GAZZA]

11 minutes ago, MOB said:

The way of the gods is ineffable.

I suspect many Hero Questers would dispute that. And to a God Learner "effing" gods is what they are all about.

[Tindalos]

20 minutes ago, MOB said:

The list of Yelmalio gifts and geases is by no means definitive or limited to what is there.

True, but I'd assume it's also culturally varying. 

No sense someone living in Ralios ending up with communication with Impalas if there's none around. 

And likewise, an elf getting "eat no birds" might as well have no geas all. 

[MOB]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

True, but I'd assume it's also culturally varying. 

No sense someone living in Ralios ending up with communication with Impalas if there's none around. 

And likewise, an elf getting "eat no birds" might as well have no geas all. 

On the other hand, it could lead to glorious MGF. The Light Son Lester of Salfester has been perpetually perplexed, ever since his god Yelmalio commanded him to "commune with impalas". If only he knew what an impala was... One day he hopes (and the GM will ensure) this becomes significant. 

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

And to a God Learner "effing" gods is what they are all about.

And look where that got them. Better just to abide by your geases, no matter how inexplicable they are...

Edited May 20, 2020 by MOB

[dumuzid]

On 5/18/2020 at 9:36 AM, Darius West said:

Argan Argar is not primarily a war deity.  Argan Argar is a troll deity of mediation between the trolls and the surface folk.  His "mercenaries" are swarms of spear armed trollkin, and they are just fine at what they do i.e. be cheap disposable arrow fodder.

Just gonna dip my toe in on these points from the previous page.

1) As the troll god of mediation between Darkness (not just trolls themselves) and surface people/elements, Argan Argan was among the chief war gods of Kethaela in the Darkness, Grey and Dawn ages, with a brief resurgence in the second age.  In the Storm Age, as Esrola's husband, Argan Argar was the god-king of Kethaela and led its peoples in wars against the rise of chaos, using his Harmony influence to bridge the divides between them and allow them to fight together effectively.  After the gods departed and the Greater Darkness began Ezkankekko, aka Only Old One, Argan Argar's son and heir and chief priest on earth, gathered and commanded the Unity Army of the surviving peoples of Kethaela that destroyed the last chaos horde, led by Wakboth the Devil.  After the Unity Battle, and for many centuries after the Dawn, warrior-priests of Argan Argar dominated the officer corps of the Kimantorings, the professional army of the cities of Nochet, which was originally formed from Ezkankekko's household guard, and took its orders direct from his Palace of Black Glass atop the Shadow Plateau until the Bright Empire's invasion.  Even after Palangio's occupation the Lord Kimantor of Nochet, the high priest of Ezkankekko's hero cult among humans, continued as the commander of Esrolia's professional military right up until Belintar deposed Only Old One and founded the Holy Country.  In the military sphere the Argan Argar cult and Ezkankkeko's hero/subcult within it had a role similar to Polestar's in Peloria, as a god for officers and commanders of the Kingdom of Night and Unity Council's highly heterogenous forces.  It was a significant breach between Ezkankekko and Varzor Kitor, his human disciple in the early Dawn and the first supreme general (entitled "Lord Demon of Death") of the Unity Council, when Varzor embraced worshiping Zorak Zoran in preparation for the Unity Council's first war, against the Shazdorings of Alkoth.

This role as the primary officers' cult ended in Kethaela after Belintar deposed Ezkankekko, along with many other public functions of the Argan Argar cult in what became the Holy Country.    The cult we have rules for is a pale shadow of what it was before Belintar, much less what it was like at the height of Only Old One's power before the Gbaji Wars.  Most of this comes from Esrolia: Land of 10,000 Goddesses and Tradetalk #'s 4-6.

In short: I agree that AA is not primarily a war god, but the cult definitely had martial aspects that have been rendered dormant within Time by events in Kethaela.  I would not be surprised if the now mostly defunct subcult of Deresegar, "son of Argan Argar" and patron of Esrolian spear-trolls since the Dawn, offered Spear Trance, Thrust or other spear-mastery magic no longer widely practiced by the cult.

2) The spearkin are a step beyond what's described here.  Any fool can give a swarm of trollkin sticks with pointy ends, but they're as likely to eat them as shove them at people, and they won't stand sunlight, certainly not in ranks.  Argan Argar spearkin can form and hold a spearwall under the sun.  They can face a charge of human soldiers, even cavalry, with no greater chance of flinching than hard-bitten mercenaries of any other race.  Trollkin without Argan Argar spear-training have their military uses, but mainly as skirmishers and harassers and only at night, with dark trolls to bully them.  Enemies who underestimate a true spearkin cohort, on the other hand, are in at least as much danger as those who underestimate a durulz warband.  They have their own subcult within Argan Argar worship, with its own heroes--the dark and great troll officers of Argan Argar mercenary units were often originally trollkin who won adoption and rebirth as bigger forms of troll.

And that's just what an Argan Argar spear-troll cohort is like at the end of the Third Age, when there's seven trollkin for every three trolls in most uz populations.  Before the Curse of Kin, an Argan Argar mercenary unit meant a whole troop of phalanx-drilled dark trolls, with the full array of powers and servants won from the other five elements by Argan Argar and Ezkankekko at their command.

[dumuzid]

This is an illustration of the Shadow Plateau troll soldiers who marched with Arkat into the final campaigns of the Gbaji Wars:

that's what a First Age troll cohort from the Kingdom of Night looked like.  And look at troll hero Kwaratch Kang there in the foreground, he's so pleased with it all!

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, dumuzid said:

2) The spearkin are a step beyond what's described here.  Any fool can give a swarm of trollkin sticks with pointy ends, but they're as likely to eat them as shove them at people, and they won't stand sunlight, certainly not in ranks.  Argan Argar spearkin can form and hold a spearwall under the sun. 

Don't forget that Argan Argar gained the spear from his defeat of Lodril. He uses shadow to protect Trollkin armies from the sun.

[Darius West]

On 5/21/2020 at 10:24 AM, dumuzid said:

I choose not to play HQ.  Trollkin will fight more effectively if they use the benefits of a create shadow rune spell. 

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Fred said:

Also, for me, to me the Shield discussion makes me wish they come up with another really useful combat spell for the cult instead, to make it more unique rather than streamlining all the warrior cults.

I agree... getting Shield from an associated cult is nice, but I feel like the in-world importance of the Yelmalio cult is not quite matched with the mechanics to explain/support it. And while adding more special cult spells is always fun, it could be interesting to make Yelmalio stand out more mechanically, to reflect how his cult also stands out culturally in the world. I would actually like to see a couple more non-magic advantages, similar to the existing advantage of knowing how to use a 2H spear with a shield. OTOH I can think of:

• Unshakeable Will: Yelmalio cultists can use augments from the same ability multiple times per session, and even maybe accumulate bonuses with subsequent rolls (although maybe there would be cumulative penalties or something, I don't know). Just like their God, they can summon an impressive amount of willpower that let them survive incredible ordeals.
• Pain Resistance: Yelmalio cultists are not incapacitated when taking huge amounts of damage (such as a maimed limb). Instead they can keep fighting (yes, just like the Black Knight in Holy Grail!), although maybe that requires on CON or POW roll.

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• Unshakeable Will: Yelmalio cultists can use augments from the same ability multiple times per session, and even maybe accumulate bonuses with subsequent rolls (although maybe there would be cumulative penalties or something, I don't know). Just like their God, they can summon an impressive amount of willpower that let them survive incredible ordeals.
• Pain Resistance: Yelmalio cultists are not incapacitated when taking huge amounts of damage (such as a maimed limb). Instead they can keep fighting (yes, just like the Black Knight in Holy Grail!), although maybe that requires on CON or POW roll.

Sounds like good options for Gifts.

[Glorion]

On 5/17/2020 at 12:37 PM, metcalph said:

Spears are phallic and having spear magics indicates base desires which Yelmalio abhors.

I don't know if that was a serious post, but if it was, then they shouldn't ever use spears either, and they should just stick to bashing people with their shields.

[Glorion]

On 5/17/2020 at 9:48 AM, Richard S. said:

Yelmalio does have Shield as of GaGoG/CoG/whatever they're calling it now. Associate spell from Yelm. Personally, I think Morale would be better for him than Truespear, as a god of soldiers.

Morale is useful for soldiers, but if your spear is your weapon and your god doesn't give you a divine gift to up its damage, your mercenaries are not going to get hired.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

Morale is useful for soldiers, but if your spear is your weapon and your god doesn't give you a divine gift to up its damage, your mercenaries are not going to get hired.

Four levels deep of of Bladesharped pikes really does go a long way, though... it was the lack of any good combat Rune Magic that was the problem with Yelmalio, not specifically lack of additional offense.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Glorion said:

Morale is useful for soldiers, but if your spear is your weapon and your god doesn't give you a divine gift to up its damage, your mercenaries are not going to get hired.

Given that 10% of a Phalanx has 90% cult weapons and another 30% have a slight advantage, the Sun Dome Templars are always going to be better than most competitors around, regardless of how shitty their rune magic is.

[Dissolv]

I'm also not a fan of the Pike being the only suitable weapon in this discussion.  Yelmalio also has a strong secondary in bows, which I assume is what the Praxian Nomads who follow him are using, for the most part.  However except for the "90% of one cult weapon" or "+10% in one cult weapon" -- which could be the bow, Yelmalio does literally nothing for his archer followers.   Less than nothing actually, as his worship takes away the option for Firearrow. 

Shame he can't get Starfire (is that the correct name) from his sister.  You'd think you would see that in the Pavis area, since the two cults are so close.

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Shame he can't get Starfire (is that the correct name) from his sister.  You'd think you would see that in the Pavis area, since the two cults are so close.

Girls' magic, ew! Gives you cooties!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Four levels deep of of Bladesharped pikes really does go a long way, though

Arguing that it takes four Yelmalians to match one other cultist proves the original argument.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck