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Bill the barbarian

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5 hours ago, Kloster said:

Allied spirits are initiated, so the should be able to perform worship.

and sacrifice for spells and RPs with any POW gained I would surmise. Or give the POW to a wyter as is discussed in elsewhere.

Now can an allied spirit (if somehow it managed to complete the requirements) become a god talker of any flavour?

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3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and sacrifice for spells and RPs with any POW gained I would surmise. Or give the POW to a wyter as is discussed in elsewhere.

Now can an allied spirit (if somehow it managed to complete the requirements) become a god talker of any flavour?

Common sense says no.

A God Talker is part of interpreting the god(s) to Middle-world people; I think it takes being in your own body to have the perspective to do so.

YGMV.

 

(I can imagine an exception made for an Allied Spirit who is also an Ancestor-spirit, and maybe is homed into a Herd-Man body.... maybe...?)

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10 minutes ago, g33k said:

A God Talker is part of interpreting the god(s) to Middle-world people; I think it takes being in your own body to have the perspective to do so.

 

Sorry,  I was referring to all Rune Levels, my bad,  Priests, Rune lords, and of course the god-talkers  (which you have given your thoughts on, thanx) who may or may not be RLs or RPs.

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sorry,  I was referring to all Rune Levels, my bad,  Priests, Rune lords, and of course the god-talkers  (which you have given your thoughts on, thanx) who may or may not be RLs or RPs.

hm.

Well, the gods have some awfully incomprehensible agendas, from our Middle-World perspecyive..  I can see, I suppose, how a spirit might be the Rune Lord that a god needs... maybe.  I'm disinclined to it as a PC concept, but I'd be willing to listen to persuasion.

I'm more strongly disinclined to the Priest role, for largely the same reasons I don't like a spirit as a God Talker.

 

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10 minutes ago, g33k said:

Well, the gods have some awfully incomprehensible agendas, from our Middle-World perspecyive..  I can see, I suppose, how a spirit might be the Rune Lord that a god needs... maybe.  I'm disinclined to it as a PC concept, but I'd be willing to listen to persuasion.

 

Again, the stopping point wold be making the skill checks and a few other restrictions, gender, what have you... species could be a severe problem <gr>. It would have to be an animal I would think and one that had skills/passions/runes that the deity in question favoured and used as cult skills. Being an allied spirit body the deity (or mythological needs) chose this might actually happen.

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

An orlanthi runelord Alynx has appeal... Puss in Boots?

Puss in Sandals of Darkness?

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Also -- the exception to every rule:  Eurmal.  Priest... God-talker... yeah sure.  Even for PC's.

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4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sorry,  I was referring to all Rune Levels, my bad,  Priests, Rune lords, and of course the god-talkers  (which you have given your thoughts on, thanx) who may or may not be RLs or RPs.

RQG p.277: "An allied spirit is an initiate of the cult and can sacrifice for Rune points, just as a normal initiate. Allied spirits cannot be Rune Priests, Rune Lords, or God-Talkers." The text doesn't seem to specify how many RP an allied spirit begins play with (but it must be at least one, since they're always an initiate).

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1 hour ago, Crel said:

RQG p.277: "An allied spirit is an initiate of the cult and can sacrifice for Rune points, just as a normal initiate. Allied spirits cannot be Rune Priests, Rune Lords, or God-Talkers." The text doesn't seem to specify how many RP an allied spirit begins play with (but it must be at least one, since they're always an initiate).

Thanks Crel, sorry Puss but away your boots, your sandals. too.

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13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and sacrifice for spells and RPs with any POW gained I would surmise. Or give the POW to a wyter as is discussed in elsewhere.

Yes, why not.

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now can an allied spirit (if somehow it managed to complete the requirements) become a god talker of any flavour?

Crel already gave the right answer.

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8 hours ago, Crel said:

The text doesn't seem to specify how many RP an allied spirit begins play with (but it must be at least one, since they're always an initiate).

Either we think they become initiated when the become allied, and in this case, the answer should be 1, or we decide they are already initiated, and the 3 of characters that are initiated when entering adulthood, but begin play at 21 seems to me correct.

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I would think the real candidate for transferrable credit between temples might be Asrelia. Hide Wealth would seem to be perfect for keeping letters of credit etc well protected. The only issue is the wording of the spell " If any of the hidden goods are moved, the spell dissipates." - I take this to mean 'if any of the goods are removed from the hidden cache, rather than just physical movement relative to the Earth. Eg I think Hide Wealth be used to hide goods in a wagon or ship. 

Issaries merchants are traders, and certainly create organised trade networks where they can (though they would have no reason to respect credit from other Issaries traders outside their networks). Asrelia cultists are more like banks - storing deposited goods and producing them on demand is part of their role, it stands to reason one of them might have the bright idea of saving the expense of actually moving physical goods around when near identical goods have been deposited at multiple temples. 

In addition many temples of Issaries are markets with temporary leadership (and often more or less temporary existence - it fills up for certain market days, and might empty in between). When the rules say that Temples of Issaries honour letters of credit from other temples, I think that likely means temples of Issaries controlled by groups that form a trade network. Anything past that probably requires some convincing. 

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

In addition many temples of Issaries are markets with temporary leadership (and often more or less temporary existence - it fills up for certain market days, and might empty in between). When the rules say that Temples of Issaries honour letters of credit from other temples, I think that likely means temples of Issaries controlled by groups that form a trade network. Anything past that probably requires some convincing. 

Well this does make sense from the point of view of what a player might wish of the goddess of earth wealth and things hidden (from memory). What might the cult want... can't find a ton of stuff but...

Quote

 

Grandmother of Wealth. Asrelia is the keeper and distributor of all which is good and desired. She is the first grandmother and mother of Ernalda, Esrola, and Maran Gor. Asrelia’s shrines in Sartar are few, but very rich.

Sartar Kingdom of Heroes page 105

 

It does seem to back up your statements. This being the case, why is Issaries the god of transferring wealth while most gods will store wealth underground. RQ RiG page 406 Storing Treasure? By the rules...

1 hour ago, davecake said:

In addition many temples of Issaries are markets with temporary leadership (and often more or less temporary existence - it fills up for certain market days, and might empty in between). When the rules say that Temples of Issaries honour letters of credit from other temples, I think that likely means temples of Issaries controlled by groups that form a trade network. Anything past that probably requires some convincing. 

The only flaw is that you imply that the Earth Temples (sorry Asrelia temples) would be more trustworthy than the Issaries or that the would have a stronger (more cohesive?) network and I see no evidence of either, Perhaps I misunderstood. In any case that is some solid arguments.

Ah I have found one more argument. I would assume that the Asrelia Temples would be few compared to the far flung and numerous Issaries Markets.

Cheers

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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

The only flaw is that you imply that the Earth Temples (sorry Asrelia temples) would be more trustworthy than the Issaries or that the would have a stronger (more cohesive?) network and I see no evidence of either, Perhaps I misunderstood. In any case that is some solid arguments.

I might be drawing on info in GoG about the treasure storehouses of Asrelia temples are also used to store the valuables of worshippers on deposit and for loans? I think any worshipper (and by default, all Earth worshippers reveres Asrelia, even if not their primary goddess) is going to trust their temple unless given a VERY good reason not too. The issue is not whether the temples are trusted, but whether the temples trust each other. The situations for Issaries and Asrelia are very different. The problem with Issaries markets is that they are often fluid and changable institutions, and not usually monolithic ones - why would you expect two markets to honour the debts of each other, when the actual merchants involved might be entirely different people, with different stock, connected only by their temporary involvement in one market along their route? So it is only going to work if the various merchants involved trust one another, hence are part of the same established network. Asrelia temples, on the other hand, are large stable repositories of wealth. They might not move wealth around much, but they are used to keeping track of debts and interest etc. There are probably Argan Argar networks (but maybe only in the Shadowlands and Safelster), and Lokarnos  and Etyries networks too, but whether they extend as far as dealing in credit notes will vary. 

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So far as I can see, Issaries is all about the versatility & mobility of wealth.  He's the letters-of-credit god.

Asrelia has no mobility.  She's got a vault in the Underworld as (so far as I can tell) her home.  It is undoubtedly more secure than anything of Issaries; it is undoubtedly less mobile, too.

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6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Asrelia has no mobility.  She's got a vault in the Underworld as (so far as I can tell) her home.  It is undoubtedly more secure than anything of Issaries; it is undoubtedly less mobile, too.

Unless her priestesses use gnomes (still can't get used to calling them Earth Elementals, it seems wrong) to move the caches (preserving the letter of the spell since the wealth remains in the urn) about, mostly undetectably (this is beginning to sound a teeny bit egregious, but not munchkinnery yet, sorry PhilHibbs).

Cheers

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

I might be drawing on info in GoG about the treasure storehouses of Asrelia temples are also used to store the valuables of worshippers on deposit and for loans

Perhaps the following...

Quote

Helerdon (small city): Also called Asrelia’s Retreat or Asrelopa, the goddess Asrelia retired to this place after she gave possession of Ezel to her daughter Ernalda. The ancient Treasuries of Asrelia are here, holding the offerings of many cities and tribes to the Goddess of Wealth. For centuries, the temple has guarded the valuables placed in its care; not even the God Learners or the Empire of the Wyrms Friends dared plunder it. The priestesses are notorious for their greed and their riches. The rain god Heler also has an important temple here.

GtG v1 oage 255

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I think any worshipper (and by default, all Earth worshippers reveres Asrelia, even if not their primary goddess) is going to trust their temple unless given a VERY good reason not too. The issue is not whether the temples are trusted, but whether the temples trust each other.

Correct, that is what I poorly try to say, cheers

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

There are probably Argan Argar networks (but maybe only in the Shadowlands and Safelster),

Northern Torkani lands near Stork Ferry in the shadows of the Indigo Mountains possibly, I would imagine that the human and Uz would be separate though.

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Asrelia’s shrines in Sartar are few, but very rich.

Sartar Kingdom of Heroes page 105

So, I am not convinced on your taking the Issaries out of the equation, Good arguments but are banks on the marble are crooked but there we are hat in hat being customers. Don't undersell tradition because something is better. In fact you even successfully argued imo to include more trader banking cult networks. But other than the lack of Asrelian shrines as noted in the above quote you got good arguments for including Esrolia into the credit transfer business,  throw in the Gnome Express and voila...

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On 6/5/2019 at 9:13 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Now can an allied spirit (if somehow it managed to complete the requirements) become a god talker of any flavour?

In RQ2, we played that an Allied Spirit with 18 POW was effectively an Associate Priest, so gained Reusable Runemagic. That was very useful indeed. Soltak Stormspear's Allied Spirit had Teleport, so if I became unconscious, it could teleport me out of there.

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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Helerdon

Its just the extreme - minor versions of Asrelia treasure houses are everywhere throughout Esrolia at least (less so in other Heortling or earth cult lands), and they frequently invest in money-making ventures, particularly mining. 

 

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So, I am not convinced on your taking the Issaries out of the equation, Good arguments but are banks on the marble are crooked but there we are hat in hat being customers. Don't undersell tradition because something is better. In fact you even successfully argued imo to include more trader banking cult networks.

Issaries is the most prevalent, and wide ranging in its activity, of the mercantile inclined cults - but it is also one of the least unified I think. Multiple extended trading networks, and lots of independents. Asrelia functions more as bankers than traders perhaps - but then, dealing with credit rather than the movement of physical goods is more a banking than a trading function. 

Probably a lot of the physical mechanics here are based around the whole 'tear the note in half' technique. 

Argan Argar networks

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Northern Torkani lands near Stork Ferry in the shadows of the Indigo Mountains possibly, I would imagine that the human and Uz would be separate though.

The chain reaches there I think.  The trade networks here are the 'Argan Argar Chain' (guide pg 382). The troll networks really are too separated too function as long distance chain - there are too many areas with very few trolls - so the Argan Argar cult has built up networks including human worshippers, in some places openly (the Kitori especially but possibly the Torkani, other parts of the Holy Country, etc), in other places effectively a secret society (Safelster, maybe even up to Yolp). The network probably also extends up to Fronela too. Where there are both human and troll AA worshippers, I am sure they talk to each other. 

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