Let's make sure BRP Central is a welcoming place for everyone.

[Rick Meints]

One of the most sensitive issues concerning labelling something as "non-canonical" is the negative connotations the word carries for many people.

We aren't trying to offend people, especially the creatives that have been gloriously exploring glorantha for potentially decades.

Regardless of the best of intentions, if we label something as non-canonical we inevitably get pushback on why we are calling somebody's baby "ugly". It has caused anger and offense when all we are trying to provide is clarity. It's an unenviable position to be in. No, actually it sucks. It truly sucks. We've seen people almost rage quit over it. It doesn't ease our efforts to build a friendly and welcoming community.

If I talk about something I know about I will try to say where I am getting the information from. I'd rather shed light than curse the darkness (unless Trolls are involved). I like pointing people to books that might give them more info or food for thought. If it's a small bit of info I'll even try to cut and paste the few sentences.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Rick Meints

[Shiningbrow]

How about the term 'official'?  Less connotations when something is "not official", because it directly refers to the source (printed materials from IP owning publishers).

Also, something could follow canon, and be unofficial.... (apparently, there's also official but non-canonical).

Those who are being creative can do so, knowing they're not employed by Chaosium, and so "not official". If later, Chaosium decides to publish their work, it then becomes official (and canon).

I'm saying, i like @g33k's idea, but understand the potential problem.

 

(note to self - Conan isn't canon!)

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

One of the most sensitive issues concerning labelling something as "non-canonical" is the negative connotations the word carries for many people.

We aren't trying to offend people, especially the creatives that have been gloriously exploring glorantha for potentially decades.

Regardless of the best of intentions, if we label something as non-canonical we inevitably get pushback on why we are calling somebody's baby "ugly". It has caused anger and offense when all we are trying to provide is clarity. It's an unenviable position to be in. No, actually it sucks. It truly sucks. We've seen people almost rage quit over it...

Hmmm...

I hadn't realized.

 

Ok... I guess that I officially don' wanna touch tha' wi' ma 10' pole... 

 

Sorry to hear this issue has been such a flashpoint!

 

[PhilHibbs]

Here's my take on "canon".

I don't care about it.

So Whitewall has changed from a previous map. Fine, I'll run the new Whitewall material with the new map.

And if a few years down the line a new writer comes up with a new Whitewall scenario in which the layout is different again, so what? I'll use that. Maybe the new scenario material works better with a different map, maybe it needs a spooky ancient EWF building that was never detailed before, or has a dramatic final confrontation on a cliff edge that wasn't on the earlier map. I really have no problem with that, why would I?

This is my pragmatic approach for stress reduction. Sit back and enjoy it, why not? Maybe poke a little fun about buildings popping up out of the ground, then move on.

Edited May 8, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Rob Darvall]

On 5/8/2019 at 1:17 PM, Rick Meints said:

If I talk about something I know about I will try to say where I am getting the information from. I'd rather shed light than curse the darkness (unless Trolls are involved). I like pointing people to books that might give them more info or food for thought. If it's a small bit of info I'll even try to cut and paste the few sentences.

And I at least find this invaluable. An awful lot of my Glorantha is non-canon, used to be canon, and just plain made up. The extra sources can trigger a fun adventure, which is all I'm trying to provide.

[soltakss]

On 5/7/2019 at 4:22 PM, g33k said:

(A) Solid Canon

(B) Largely Canonical, may be non-canonical in specific minor ways

(C) Has some specific Canon contents, but is overall less-canonical 

The programmer in me approves, as a set of codes should be meaningless, but the player in me screams "Surely (C) for Canon, (L) for Largely Canon, (S) for Some Canon and (N) For Non-Canonical.

[soltakss]

On 5/8/2019 at 4:47 AM, Shiningbrow said:

How about the term 'official'?  Less connotations when something is "not official", because it directly refers to the source (printed materials from IP owning publishers).

ILH1 and ILH2 were published by Issaries, so would be official, but are no longer canon.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

On 5/7/2019 at 5:22 PM, g33k said:

(A) Solid Canon

(B) Largely Canonical, may be non-canonical in specific minor ways

(C) Has some specific Canon contents, but is overall less-canonical 

The programmer in me approves, as a set of codes should be meaningless, but the player in me screams "Surely (C) for Canon, (L) for Largely Canon, (S) for Some Canon and (N) For Non-Canonical.

The grognard in me wants to use the rumor ratings (T for true, F for false, etc.) because it also had the categories B (basically true, but...) and A (too awful to imagine).

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

The programmer in me approves, as a set of codes should be meaningless, but the player in me screams "Surely (C) for Canon, (L) for Largely Canon, (S) for Some Canon and (N) For Non-Canonical.

And for stuff that should just be thrown out, there'd be Fire Canon....

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And for stuff that should just be thrown out, there'd be Fire Canon....

Sorry, that's a dwarf secret! They will have to recycle you now. 😉

[g33k]

50 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Sorry, that's a dwarf secret! They will have to recycle you now. 😉

And to cycle this 'round to the "welcoming to all" notion:  Gloranthan Dwarves (called Mostali (followers of Mostal)) use weird forms of magic that often look anachronistic/technological, including very gun-like artifacts under the auspices if a "cannon cult".

Dwarven guns/cannons are one of the (many) secrets that Dwarves won't share, up to and including killing outsiders who learn the secrets of making/operating them.

Last but not least, Mostali are so devoted to their build/repair vision and the "world-machine" that they see corpses and similarly non-useful folk as ready to be "recycled" (into something useful).

 

Because.in-jokes, while funny, are often less "welcoming."

 

[soltakss]

23 minutes ago, g33k said:

Because.in-jokes, while funny, are often less "welcoming."

And a joke becomes not a joke if it has to be explained.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

And a joke becomes not a joke if it has to be explained.

Sorry.

Shall I put an antispoiler warning on it... 'HAZARD grognards:  DO NOT READ!"

???

[soltakss]

32 minutes ago, g33k said:

Shall I put an antispoiler warning on it... 'HAZARD grognards:  DO NOT READ!"

Was that a joke?

[g33k]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Was that a joke?

I never make jokes.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

Because.in-jokes, while funny, are often less "welcoming."

It's a good point!  And since I started the in-joke with the reference to the Cannon Cult of the dwarves, I'll take the blame for that.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It's a good point!  And since I started the in-joke with the reference to the Cannon Cult of the dwarves, I'll take the blame for that.

Lots of us have wandered the point; thread drift happens!  I don'r think you were the first, or the worst; and I'm no innocent either!  But given the OP was Chaosium and the point of the threat was "welcome all," I felt it necessary to spoil the jokes.   😛

 

[Wandering Monster]

Hi,

I'm also a relative newcomer to Glorantha, having only just started with RQG and the Glorantha Sourcebook late last year, and I have a question regarding being a newcomer. This question is primarily for @Ellie who explicitly stated that until not too long ago she had zero exposure to Glorantha, but I suppose anyone can answer.

My question is this: Ellie, as a former newcomer who now appears to be pretty well versed in Glorantha-lore, how did you do it? Or put another way, how would you recommend to another newcomer to learn about Glorantha? You mentioned it has a pretty steep learning curve. What resources did *you* use to become the Glorantha-phile you are today? 😁

What would everyone else recommend?

Thanks all!

[jajagappa]

45 minutes ago, Wandering Monster said:

What would everyone else recommend?

Focus on what you need to know for your character, and don't worry about trying to absorb it all or overcoming a "learning curve".  Get the game basics down.

But otherwise, you've got an occupation, you've got a deity you worship (or you follow a shamanic or sorcerous tradition), you've got some skills relevant to those, and you come from a homeland. The cultures are unique and they belong to the type of settings seen in ancient real-world epics. There are other intelligent creatures, and they have their own gods and agendas. And there are monstrous beings (e.g. True Dragons) and chaotic horrors in the world.

If you're a GM, then you'll want to know some more, but even there I focus on the story/scenario being told, not trying to touch on every piece of Gloranthan lore.

Hope that helps.

[klecser]

On 5/11/2019 at 1:21 PM, soltakss said:

And a joke becomes not a joke if it has to be explained.

This is pretty much where I am right now. I discovered Runequest back in April and I'm pretty psyched about it. This Board has been overwhelmingly helpful in addressing my concerns.  But then things like this happen:

I was trying to be helpful here. And people are essentially indicating that I've committed some sort of Board faux pas simply by asking a designer for insight? It makes me feel like attempts to help aren't welcome. It makes me feel like I'm not part of the "Club." I'm here on loan as a newbie or something, but I'll never really get my "cred" until I'm here for X years. 10 years? 15 years? Until I'm angry about a new ruleset? It's even more strong on the Call of Cthulhu boards. I've been on those Boards for a couple of years and STILL don't feel welcome there, despite countless efforts to try to support new players. Heck, I've sworn off YSDC because the Club mentality there is so ridiculous.

Now, I may have misread the situation. That is the point. As a new player, I don't understand what those reacts mean. No one has ever reacted "Sad" to an attempt to help before. I'm an experienced gamer and I've always believed that it is incumbent on experienced players to work extra hard to welcome new players.

Edited July 9, 2019 by klecser

[PhilHibbs]

I don't think sadface always is a negative to the poster, it could mean "I'm sad that someone else is struggling with this issue of confusing rules".

[g33k]

<SNIP>

Quote

people are essentially indicating that I've committed some sort of Board faux pas simply by asking a designer for insight? It makes me feel like attempts to help aren't welcome. It makes me feel like I'm not part of the "Club." I'm here on loan as a newbie or something, but I'll never really get my "cred" until I'm here for X years. 10 years? 15 years? Until I'm angry about a new ruleset? It's even more strong on the Call of Cthulhu boards. I've been on those Boards for a couple of years and STILL don't feel welcome there, despite countless efforts to try to support new players. Heck, I've sworn off YSDC because the Club mentality there is so ridiculous.

Now, I may have misread the situation. That is the point. As a new player, I don't understand what those reacts mean. No one has ever reacted "Sad" to an attempt to help before. I'm an experienced gamer and I've always believed that it is incumbent on experienced players to work extra hard to welcome new players.

I didn't think so...

The thing about "reacts" is their utterly uncontextualized nature.  You seem to have read those as critical of you, as "sad that you asked."  But maybe the people who clicked meant, "It's sad the rules are in a state where you HAVE to ask."  Or "it's sad this wasn't already addressed by Chaosium when originally asked, and needs explicit prompting."  Or "it's sad to see rules-clarification queries propagating outside the main thread."

Or... well.  Really, we don't know.  REALLY we don't!  Unless you've had PM's with the people who React'ed, and gotten them to expand upon their clicks.  😳

(even that emoji... do you know what I meant by that?  are you sure you know?)

It's often noted that "text doesn't convey tone."  An insult spoken in a joking manner might flip the meaning to the opposite of the words spoken... but not in text!  Emoji's and many Reacts, 1-click Wonders, are even worse!

And even if the worst interpretation is true... that was 2 people.  Maybe they were having bad days.  Maybe they mis-read / misunderstood something and Sad'ed about something you didn't actually say.  But in the end... it's only 2 people.

===

From my own perspective... I am finding your interactions here to be useful, interesting, topical.  An asset to the board.

Also, your vocal and active participation is frankly invaluable:  you're one of the small cohort of new enthusiasts speaking up frankly and clearly, whose initial-experience queries help the grognards figure out the stuff that got internalized 3-4 decades ago, and don't even recall any confusion; the grognards are better able to assist the new players at their tables, at FLGS Open Tables, at Con events, etc.  You make the fandom stronger, by MUCH more than one gamer's voice.

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by g33k

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, klecser said:

Now, I may have misread the situation. That is the point. As a new player, I don't understand what those reacts mean. No one has ever reacted "Sad" to an attempt to help before. I'm an experienced gamer and I've always believed that it is incumbent on experienced players to work extra hard to welcome new players.

Quote

From a private post

I was going to send this just as a private post but...

My first sad face was a bit of a disaster too, like the first scratch on a new paint job. You are a fine member of the community, but remember, so are a lot of folk here. You don't usually cause trouble (okay, never) but that can be said about a lot of us (yeah, I know, not me... troublemaker here!) You contribute in a positive way and don't get the credit you are due. I feel that was sometimes, but... You do a lot around here, kudos

We are all uz.

The silence of typing at home as opposed to seeing your conversation partner or competitor is a bit alienating. Is he dissing me, in an in-club kind of way? What did he really mean?

What am I trying to say... and floundering at...

I tried to help someone here the night I broke my glasses, I was not helping and the other individual was giving me no indication how I wasn't. They were just getting madder and madder that I was so... and I was getting more confused and pained, Ever try to read 10 pt font without much needed glasses. By the last post I was in serious pain (close to a migraine), confused hurt and I just gave up with a one sentence post. It was not mean but it was not sympathetic either.

Alas, we have not seen the individual since... Screwed up, or was I human... the other individual as well?

 What you are looking at here is a very minor version of this... misunderstanding, but a very real one. We all are alone looking at pixels posing as words passing before our eyes. Pixels can't hurt, Intentions can, but worse so can misunderstandings, If one were to try to follow these words below, I think we will all be better off

Be nice...

 

[Bill the barbarian]

32 minutes ago, g33k said:

 Or... well.  Really, we don't know.  REALLY we don't!  Unless you've had PM's with the people who React'ed, and gotten them to expand upon their clicks.  😳

Yeah, what he said.

4 hours ago, klecser said:

Now, I may have misread the situation. That is the point. As a new player, I don't understand what those reacts mean. No one has ever reacted "Sad" to an attempt to help before. I'm an experienced gamer and I've always believed that it is incumbent on experienced players to work extra hard to welcome new players.

Oh and klecser, we love ya!

Cheers

[kirinyaga]

I will also add that "sad" appear when clicking on the "I like" button. To me it's a precision about what I liked in the posted text, certainly not a negative appreciation about the author. As others said, I understand it as "being as sad as you about it".