Egregious munchkinnery!

[jajagappa]

28 minutes ago, Crel said:

Additionally, I currently see nothing in Chalana Arroy's longer writeup (on p.290) which directly contradicts this reading, although @PhilHibbs's comment is probably accurate.

I guess it's worth pointing out that any of the cults noting CA as associated can get access at start of play to Sleep. Eurmal just stuck out in particular because Tricksters. And, I suppose any other cult would have some notion of "use this spell nicely, or else CA's gonna be pissed" whereas Tricksters are Tricksters. Other cults include Ernalda, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Orlanth, Storm Bull and Yelm.

Except if you go back to Cults of Prax, with a full writeup of CA, you'll find on p.69

"No non-cult person can be taught this spell. Befuddle was once a special cult battle magic spell as well, but unwise teaching of it beyond the cult led to its use in attacks, perverting its merciful origin. That cult mistake will not be repeated."

I believe this will be reaffirmed in the new Gods book.

Edited April 21, 2019 by jajagappa

[Crel]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Except if you go back to Cults of Prax

Munchkin Answer: Referring to a forty year old supplement is not relevant to the modern game! Rules as written, Tricksters can insist the party takes a nap.

Plus, as @gochie says, shamans are a thing if you really wanna get your hands on the spell. Just takes a good bit more work.

Munchkin answers do not necessarily reflect the poster's actual opinions.

[Bill the barbarian]

58 minutes ago, Crel said:

I guess it's worth pointing out that any of the cults noting CA as associated can get access at start of play to Sleep. Eurmal just stuck out in particular because Tricksters. And, I suppose any other cult would have some notion of "use this spell nicely, or else CA's gonna be pissed" whereas Tricksters are Tricksters. Other cults include Ernalda, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Orlanth, Storm Bull and Yelm.

You know, if I had a trickster able to get it out of CA teacher (good enough story, correct rolls, yada yada), I would have to think the trickster was doing his job.Oh and thanx for the citations!

Edited April 21, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Referring to a forty year old supplement is not relevant to the modern game!

Except when you know it will be! Those cults in GoG aren't coming out of thin air. 

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

You know, if I had a trickster able to get it out of CA teacher (good enough story, correct rolls, yada yada), I would have to think the trickster was doing his job.

Oh, he would be. But pity the poor Trickster who does so and finds that CA is no longer protecting him from Mallia... And Mallia just loves seeking out Disorder...

[g33k]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I know it's an "appeal to authority" but Jeff agrees. So it's really just an omission.

TYVM!!!

Also, may I reiterate at this point in time HOW MUCH IT SUCKS for there to be multiple "official" channels where the answers can be scattered and buried beyond any hope of rediscovery barring the efforts of noble HeroQuestors such as PhilHibbs!

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

Munchkin Answer: Referring to a forty year old supplement is not relevant to the modern game! Rules as written, Tricksters can insist the party takes a nap.

... Except when:

1) the text in question is available for purchase at chaosium.com,

2) back-compatibility is a stated design-goal of the modern edition,

and

3) cut&paste from RQ2 to RQG is broadly evident, and thus likely from CoP to GaGoG.

 

I mean, sure, I /DO/ see the munchkin line of argument... but it's about as durable as a snowflake on midsummer in the Sahara...

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Crel said:

P.73 "Cult Spirit Magic: If your cult teaches spirit magic, choose 5 points of cult spirit magic. The spirit magic spells taught by the cult are listed. An initiate can start with spirit magic spells taught by an associated cult."

On p.75, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy and Orlanth are listed as Eurmal's Associated Cults. On p.74, Sleep is listed as a 3-pt cult spirit magic spell. Therefore, RAW, Eurmali Tricksters can begin play knowing Sleep as 3 of their 5 points of cult spirit magic.

Additionally, I currently see nothing in Chalana Arroy's longer writeup (on p.290) which directly contradicts this reading, although @PhilHibbs's comment is probably accurate.

I guess it's worth pointing out that any of the cults noting CA as associated can get access at start of play to Sleep. Eurmal just stuck out in particular because Tricksters. And, I suppose any other cult would have some notion of "use this spell nicely, or else CA's gonna be pissed" whereas Tricksters are Tricksters. Other cults include Ernalda, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Orlanth, Storm Bull and Yelm.

This is addressed in Gods and Goddesses. Sleep is not taught outside of the cult. 

RQG was long enough that it made no sense deep diving into every cult.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Oh, he would be. But pity the poor Trickster who does so and finds that CA is no longer protecting him from Mallia... And Mallia just loves seeking out Disorder...

and your average trickster utilizes his vast wisdom to parse this out to his advantage and lead a better life as a functioning member of his clan: 

always yes/no
usually yes/no
on occasion yes/no
What was the question yer honour My vast what..? 
 

[Ochoa]

Sheesh. I can`t come up with a decent challenge for my season one adventurers and you guys are putting this stuff out there...

[Crel]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

... Except when:

1) the text in question is available for purchase at chaosium.com,

2) back-compatibility is a stated design-goal of the modern edition,

and

3) cut&paste from RQ2 to RQG is broadly evident, and thus likely from CoP to GaGoG.

 

I mean, sure, I /DO/ see the munchkin line of argument... but it's about as durable as a snowflake on midsummer in the Sahara...

GaGoG?

Also, going to leave the argument mostly aside, but I would like to note that I find "go buy a 40 year old PDF" an incredibly privileged answer, which I feel pushes the opposite direction of Ellie's "let's be newb friendly!" thread currently stickied atop the board. Imagine how a newcomer to the system would feel when told "well actually your interpretation of the 2018 rulebook isn't quite right because of this thing written in 1979."

That being said, I very much look forward to getting my sticky nubbins on the forthcoming Gods book(s). ... And inevitably trying to expand this thread when I do

14 minutes ago, Ochoa said:

Sheesh. I can`t come up with a decent challenge for my season one adventurers and you guys are putting this stuff out there...

Don't worry about it too much. A good chunk of the shenanigans/exploits/uncharitable readings in this thread do have loopholes, or flaws which are reasonable for the GM to poke at. For example, the Humakti example means you're totally out of Rune magic, which is a much larger liability than it may appear since things like Heal Wound are so reliable.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

GaGoG?

 

Had you looked up Different Wyrmsthumbprints issue 23 the one with the purple cover (which was never actually published) in nine-teen hundred and seventy five in the 13th month you would have realized (nose high up in the air as he says) 

GaGoG equals Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha

Non-grognard, hmmphh.

Ohh and Ochoa, Crel is perfectly correct in his comment about this thread. This is munchkinnery here is at its most egregious and I believe that there are some serious munchkins here abouts based on the past 4 pages. Mighty serious munchkins, indeed!

cheers

Edited April 21, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
to increase general silliness (did it work?)

[Crel]

9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Non-grognard, hmmphh.

Hey now, considering y'all have a thirty-ish year head start on me I feel like I do alright for myself!

[Bill the barbarian]

What is the etymology of munchkinnery as relates to rpgs?

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What is the etymology of munchkinnery as relates to rpgs?

Not entirely sure where "munchkin" comes historically from but it refers to someone who is all about what they can get for their character in terms of loot, skill, and pluses. It's what the Steve Jackson "Munchkin" game is all about. I should point out that I usually don't play a munchkin, but dabbling in munchkinnery can be fun from time to time. The fact that you may find that my RQG characters just happen to have quite a few stats at 13 is total coincidence.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What is the etymology of munchkinnery as relates to rpgs?

Google doesn't offer a definition, but I was as mildly amused as I was mildly peeved to get this search result:

https://www.google.com/search?q=define:munchkinnery&client=firefox-b-d&sa=N&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Ym97D78cw45k8M%3A%2CE913oLrN5tg5aM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTpZ2qoeQKdoF62cR3vXHkdqKnDbg&ved=2ahUKEwiGwZG07uDhAhXS26QKHTz5A3I4ChD1ATAAegQICRAE&biw=1048&bih=779#imgrc=Ym97D78cw45k8M:

(If you can't be bothered to click that monstrosity of a link, it shows the J on green ground, as in my profile picture...)

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Not entirely sure where "munchkin" comes historically from but it refers to someone who is all about what they can get for their character in terms of loot, skill, and pluses. It's what the Steve Jackson "Munchkin" game is all about. I should point out that I usually don't play a munchkin, but dabbling in munchkinnery can be fun from time to time. The fact that you may find that my RQG characters just happen to have quite a few stats at 13 is total coincidence.

There is this old piece that contrasts the Real Man, Real Roleplayer, the Clown and the Munchkin types of roleplayers - to my knowledge the original application of the term to roleplaying.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Joerg

[PhilHibbs]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is this old piece that contrasts the Real Man, Real Roleplayer, the Clown and the Munchkin types of roleplayers - to my knowledge the original application of the term to roleplaying.

http://www.100megspop2.com/ulrich12/RPG/The Munchkin Netbook.txt

Favorite World/Setting:
*Real Men* play in Sanctuary
*Real Roleplayers* play in Glorantha
*Loonies* play in Southern California
*Munchkins* play wherever has the most magic items

Edited April 21, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Hey now, considering y'all have a thirty-ish year head start on me I feel like I do alright for myself!

Nah yer a piker, I'm a piker. Ya want grognard, just check out the last three posts ;)

[Joerg]

58 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

http://www.100megspop2.com/ulrich12/RPG/The Munchkin Netbook.txt

Favorite World/Setting:
*Real Men* play in Sanctuary
*Real Roleplayers* play in Glorantha
*Loonies* play in Southern California
*Munchkins* play wherever has the most magic items

So basically, if you use Chaosium's old Thieves World box as Refuge in Glorantha for expeditions to the Machine Ruins, you cover almost the entire roleplayer fan base (as Chaosium was a Californian company at the time they produced the Thieves World box - though not southern).

Edited April 21, 2019 by Joerg

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Ochoa said:

Sheesh. I can`t come up with a decent challenge for my season one adventurers and you guys are putting this stuff out there...

Don't worry about it. Some people have far too much time on their hands, fortunately for us.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Ochoa said:

Sheesh. I can`t come up with a decent challenge for my season one adventurers and you guys are putting this stuff out there...

Know your enemy, that's what this thread is for. GMs, know what your munchkins will do. Munchkins, prepare for the GM's slap-downs.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and your average trickster utilizes his vast wisdom to parse this out to his advantage and lead a better life as a functioning member of his clan

That's why we must pity him.

4 hours ago, Crel said:

but I would like to note that I find "go buy a 40 year old PDF" an incredibly privileged answer

If it was "go buy a 40 year old hard copy on eBay" absolutely. But since the pdf is fully available at Chaosium's site and provides the most complete cult writeups until GoG is available, it's a very reasonable answer.

[Kloster]

19 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I know it's an "appeal to authority" but Jeff agrees. So it's really just an omission.

Can you please repost here, I don't have a Facebook account.

[Shiningbrow]

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I know it's an "appeal to authority" but Jeff agrees. So it's really just an omission.

Appeal to Inappropriate Authority is a logical fallacy.

Appealing to a very appropriate authority who gives a relevant opinion on the topic is perfectly valid!

[PhilHibbs]

55 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Can you please repost here, I don't have a Facebook account.

I tested the link, and it works when not logged in. However:

Quote

As an aside, you are in a trance when you cast Sword or Axe Trance. I suspect if you extended it to more than a week, you'd die of dehydration or starvation.

 

[gochie]

42 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I tested the link, and it works when not logged in. However:

 

Honestly seemed like he posted that as an afterthought to counter all the arguments before it.

It makes sense, but it really should be in the description, especially since the bestiary (with Arrow Trance) came after the core book.