Egregious munchkinnery!

[MJ Sadique]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm, wasn't that obvious?

Obvious... not so obvious as it seems at first glance. I had not explain it in my first post 'cause was too long BUT ... "Healing spirits are available to shamans ... of Chalana Arroy" and they destroy the disease ability : No disease ability no POW steal. So the Healing spirit strategy means Cure not Steal and digest. why ? I give some hint :

16 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Third problem is not a rules but a Roleplay problem : If you are a good Chaman, you may not destroy (in your case, digest) the soul of dead man. (Bestiary p166, column 2, line 3-4). If your are an evil chaman, no problem ...

You fight with healing spirit to cure the disease spirit (ie the spirit of a man killed by a disease) not to built up yourself... unless your are evil 🧐. Another problem is that we don't know the POW of a healing spirit (did not find it in any book) so no healing spirit available. so another .... HOLE IN THE RULE !!! (Rq version of the "fire in the hole")

[Austin]

9 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Another problem is that we don't know the POW of a healing spirit (did not find it in any book)

Read more carefully. Glorantha Bestiary 169:

Quote

Their attributes are identical to those of a disease spirit (see above).

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

How does Boon of Kargan Tor cast on an arrow interact with Multimissile? It sounds like an awesome way to make a Bronze Age 12 Gauge. 1d8+1+2d6 is a lot of damage at range, multiply it by 4 or 6 and even big stuff goes down hard. 

[MJ Sadique]

3 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

How does Boon of Kargan Tor cast on an arrow interact with Multimissile? It sounds like an awesome way to make a Bronze Age 12 Gauge. 1d8+1+2d6 is a lot of damage at range, multiply it by 4 or 6 and even big stuff goes down hard. 

Sadly no,

A spirit cannot duplicate sorcery spell. Multimissile duplicate only the physical weapon (base damage) never the spells cast on it... And Multi-missile cost depend on the damage the weapon deal (2D6/MP). But you can optimise with a 2D6 weapons like a light crossbow (2D4+2 : 10max). Multimissile 5 will give you a total of 6 shots x 7 average_damage = 42 average damage on un-armored creature. Still worth of a 12 gauge Shotgun... (With a Stonebow, it will be perfect).

Another Munchkin idea :

Yelm Stones of Vengeance Recipe
Ingredients : a three stones bolas, Firearrow and 1RP,  Sure-shot, An orlanthi (thunder rebel brother who like throwing stone)
-Bless 2 stone with Firearrow
-Bless 1 stone with Sure-shot
-Launch vertically the bolas from behind a wall
-Enjoy the despair howling of an orlanthi and the fire

Yes the 2 spells are incompatible on the same projectile !!! (Don't tell me you don't find it fun) 😁

Edit : Some misspelling correction

Edited July 12, 2020 by MJ Sadique

[Nick Underwood]

 

On 7/11/2020 at 3:40 PM, MJ Sadique said:

• The gain is immediate ( lex parsimoniae ) and the rule feel flawed (my first idea).
• The gain is immediate and the counter part of this advantage is in the RARE nature of the spirit (what i tend to think now)
• The gain is not immediate because you need time to digest the spirit, so you gain POW at the end of the season without any POW Roll

I think a lot of what you are looking for here MJ is balance. So let's keep in mind an option 4, posted by Akhorahil immediately after I put forward the Super Shaman (and killed him dead!).

On 7/6/2020 at 6:29 PM, Akhôrahil said:

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it

I don't think we have a reference for the clarification, but that would be a solution that restricts any attempt to farm POW from Disease Spirits. With that restraint, do you feel more accepting of your first alternative? (And note: rarity can be quickly undone with a few points of shame Affintiy ability (Disease Spirits are 2 levels more common per level of ability.)

 

On 7/11/2020 at 3:40 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Second you will need to defeat it, an average spirit have POW 16 and in consequence a Spirit Combat at 85% (RQG - Bestiary CHA4032, p165). The trick (or flaw) is that Disease spirit do not attack your MP, it just infect you and "the disease spirit will try to withdraw to infect a new victim" --how ? the rules at p166 give no clues--. 

Yes. This is all a bit wierd in the rules. For example, if the spirit "withdraw(s) to infect a new victim," rather than possess the victim, how would you cure the disease by spirit combat? Does a new Disease Sprit immedately get created in the victim? With a full 3Dd+ 6 points of POW?  IF so, Malia is indeed an powerful fallen Fertility goddess.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

I think a lot of what you are looking for here MJ is balance.

We don't use the "b" word around here. Specifically, not in this thread. Shame on you.

[Nick Underwood]

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

We don't use the "b" word around here. Specifically, not in this thread. Shame on you.

Suitably chastised. I retract and rephrase: "I think a lot of what you are looking for here MJ is not to have PC's kill the bat on day 23, take dominant posession of Argrath on day 24, and force the Red Goddess to accept a one-legged Duck as the new incarnation of Moonson before the end of the season."

(But if you are running that campaign, let me know if there's a seat at the table!)

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

"I think a lot of what you are looking for here MJ is not to have PC's kill the bat on day 23, take dominant posession of Argrath on day 24, and force the Red Goddess to accept a one-legged Duck as the new incarnation of Moonson before the end of the season."

Qua...huh...wh...excu... we weren’t... that was just me dreaming, OH, why did you wake me....zzzzzzzz

Quote

Why, yes yer grace it is made of oak (for strength, doncha know)! Am I busy at the moment, no, not really... Do I know what Moonson is?

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Austin]

I'm not sure it's complete and total "egregious munchkinnery" but one spell I'm starting to suspect is increasingly shenanigans is Arouse Passion.

In my game, I got hit with an Arouse Passion 6. It was from a friend, so I didn't attempt to resist his magic. He brainwashed me to Hate Ducks 120%—which was good, for the moment, because we were about to go into a fight with ducks. But it's been a spell I've been thinking about since. I think it has solid potential for abuse.

Any Passion or Rune affinity above 80% is effectively mandatory, or very close to it (RQG 237). Normally this isn't too large an issue because the players have agency over what their adventurer's major abilities are. With a spell, I'd suggest that "reduce the Passion to 80% or less" is generally not an option until the spell ends. This is hardly a writ in stone interpretation, but as a gamemaster I think it's a plausible ruling.

So in addition to needing to overcome POW, the target of the Arouse Passion would be able to "resist" it by overcoming the new Passion with another Passion or a Rune affinity, if reasonable.

The key piece where shenanigans come into play is that the spell is ranged. You can affect someone up to 160 meters away, per usual Rune magic rules. That means all sorts of nasty tricks are available! Primarily in the species of "I hide behind the boulder, then Arouse Passion that guy in the group of Lunars to Hate Lunars 100%. Then we'll ambush them in the confusion!" Of course the spell is also useful in other situations. In particular, a strong Arouse Passion stacked with Extension seems like a great way to manipulate someone into joining your team or giving information

At the moment, only Ernalda gets the spell (according to a quick Ctrl-F of my PDF). It felt like an underwhelming spell to me at first (which wasn't a concern since otherwise Ernalda still has some awesome magic), but from my experience playing with it, and as I try thinking on it, I wonder if it's her most useful proactive magic. Rather than reactive magic, like healing.

The downside is that it's somewhat expensive for the effect. Worth the Rune points, I think, but you really need to stack them to have a strong impact. Feels more like a mid-game or late-game play rather than a good choice for new adventurers.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

Arouse Passion

Peace is another spell along those lines - it takes all non-Rune Levels whose POW you overcome out of the fight, leaving you free to slaughter them (I would imagine they’re allowed to run away, though).

(Obvious caveats about cult restrictions.)

[Austin]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Peace is another spell along those lines

Yeah, it's a splatbook spell, not a core rulebook spell, in my opinion. Not really any point having a spell restricted to High Priestesses in the core, IMO, and then zero information about the Three Bean Circus to accompany it.

[MJ Sadique]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

I'm not sure it's complete and total "egregious munchkinnery" but one spell I'm starting to suspect is increasingly shenanigans is Arouse Passion.
...
At the moment, only Ernalda gets the spell (according to a quick Ctrl-F of my PDF). It felt like an underwhelming spell to me at first (which wasn't a concern since otherwise Ernalda still has some awesome magic), but from my experience playing with it, and as I try thinking on it, I wonder if it's her most useful proactive magic. Rather than reactive magic, like healing.

The downside is that it's somewhat expensive for the effect. Worth the Rune points, ...

Great found Crel, I can envision how Ernalda, the courtesan,  seduce Orlanth the dumb !!!

Spell may be costly but I can clearly see a Game-of-Throne plot start :
-Samastina, Ernalda Courtesan : Oh my lord, would you promise to love me faithfully for this year
-RuneLord Garrath (not so in love) : Yes I promise !!!
-Samastina, Ernalda Courtesan : One the name of Ernalda...
-RuneLord Garrath (not so in love) : Yes, for the love of Ernalda (And your wealth)
-Samastina, Ernalda Courtesan cast Arouse passion 5 (Love (Samastina) +100%) + Extension 5 (Duration 1 year)
-RuneLord Garrath / If he resist she know he is not faithfull and bye-bye the money... So he don't resist the "little benediction from the goddess"
-Samastina, Ernalda Courtesan add "Runelord Garrath" as a new Pet (he is worth 10RP)

MUNCHKIN APPROVED !

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Peace is another spell along those lines - it takes all non-Rune Levels whose POW you overcome out of the fight, leaving you free to slaughter them (I would imagine they’re allowed to run away, though).

(Obvious caveats about cult restrictions.)

Nope,

First if you are in the area you'll be affect (unless runelord or spell to resist a 6pts magic spell) and second, as per Rune Fixes 2 about extension, the spell will stop even during it's effect if the purpose of the spell is violated or invalid*. But a peace with duration could be a great detection spell (within 1km, if someone try to exploit the magic effect, the spell stop and everyone can fight...)

* : "If they no longer are acting according to the spell’s function, then the gamemaster should announce that the spell’s effect ends."

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Nope,

First if you are in the area you'll be affect (unless runelord 

Wrong, and then wrong a second time. Recipients gets a POW vs. POW as per the standard rule, and it's Rune Master (i.e. God-Talker, Rune-Lord, or Rune Priest), not just Rune-Lord. (There probably should be exceptions for sorcerers and shamans as well, but there isn't).

It does raise the question of how you resist your own spells in cases like this... always 50%? The case assumes that you’re a Rune-level yourself, or that your pals are, or that you raise your counterspells, or that you do something funky about ranges (you walk away until the preferred targets are close to the range limit and the party members are outside). Getting in one of these should be very doable.

(Also, "the GM might stop your shenanigans by fiat" is assumed in all of these egregious munchkinnery discussions, so is not much of an objection.)

Edited July 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

Primarily in the species of "I hide behind the boulder, then Arouse Passion that guy in the group of Lunars to Hate Lunars 100%. Then we'll ambush them in the confusion!"

Nice find    It does sound a bit weird to me that you can arouse passions from behind cover though. Maybe this spell was meant as something that requires a few minutes of face-to-face  discussion and dancing and whatever? That would look more like something an Earth priestess would do...?

Anyway, I guess that's why Inviolable is also an Ernalda spell.... "we can mess up your guys' passions, but don't you dare mess up our guys' passions!"

Edited July 27, 2020 by lordabdul

[Austin]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe this spell was meant as something that requires a few minutes of face-to-face  discussion and dancing and whatever?

Hey there, shoo! Rules as written—this is Egregious Munchkinnery, after all.

It makes narrative sense that something like eye contact would be a minimum for a spell like this. However, it only takes an instant to invoke the gods to make poor Garrath's day. You can even take a swing at someone else afterward in the same melee round.

[Akhôrahil]

I know there’s some write-up (likely inofficial) of Minlister that allows the character to cast a mass Arouse Passion on the drinkers. 🙂

Oh, and it’s easy to imagine situations where you would want to Arouse Honor in someone. Very practical.

Any GM worth their salt would find a way to make Arouse Love have unexpected consequences... 🙂

Edited July 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Any GM worth their salt would find a way to make Arouse Love have unexpected consequences... 🙂

I thought that was the purpose of the spell...

[Akhôrahil]

Before you make your shamanistic initiation, make sure to Spell Trade for Sword Trance and get yourself something that allows your sword to work in Spirit Combat (this could be enchantment or a spell-traded Truesword), and borrow all the MP crystals and other MP storage you can get your hand on. Then, when you face the Bad Man, throw up a 30+ point Sword Trance and win every round of Spirit Combat against him (the sucker only has 175% Spirit Combat, not nearly enough), earning six Shaman Gifts in the process.

You don't actually need to have any skill in swords for this to work.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Before you make your shamanistic initiation, make sure to Spell Trade for Sword Trance and get yourself something that allows your sword to work in Spirit Combat (this could be enchantment or a spell-traded Truesword), and borrow all the MP crystals and other MP storage you can get your hand on. Then, when you face the Bad Man, throw up a 30+ point Sword Trance and win every round of Spirit Combat against him (the sucker only has 175% Spirit Combat, not nearly enough), earning six Shaman Gifts in the process.

You don't actually need to have any skill in swords for this to work.

Ouch! But the adventures for finding the Issaries guy and the Humakt guy to provide the spells, plus give them what they require would be interesting. But it is worth it!

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

...Spell Trade for Sword Trance ... Then, when you face the Bad Man, throw up a 30+ point Sword Trance and win every round of Spirit Combat...

You can't take a sword onto the spirit plane.

[Trotsky]

I imagine the Horned Man would just not turn up in the first place, it is a very sacred ceremony, and they would not get a chance to become a shaman at all

 

[Kloster]

Horned Man surely can dispel said Truesword and Sword Trance almost at will. But is is still worth to try.

15 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

I imagine the Horned Man would just not turn up in the first place, it is a very sacred ceremony, and they would not get a chance to become a shaman at all

Why not? His role is to test the would be shaman, but I also expect him to have a bag of tricks of his own.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't take a sword onto the spirit plane.

But you can bring fists enhanced by a Boon of Kargan Tor that someone cast on you. Of course, only Son Goku has Fist Trance (TM), but still.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Horned Man surely can dispel said Truesword and Sword Trance almost at will. But is is still worth to try.

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Why not? His role is to test the would be shaman, but I also expect him to have a bag of tricks of his own.

 

 

Finally, a post that qualifies as munchkinnery of the first order, dare I say egregious, but with a reason that holds water  making it quite usable in my game. Thanks Kloster!

“HAHAHAHAHA! COME LITTLE MAN THING, YOU HAVE AMUSED ME! SURELY, TODAY IS A GREAT DAY TO DIE!"

Edited November 24, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[David Scott]

On 11/24/2020 at 10:20 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Before you make your shamanistic initiation, make sure to Spell Trade for Sword Trance and get yourself something that allows your sword to work in Spirit Combat (this could be enchantment or a spell-traded Truesword), and borrow all the MP crystals and other MP storage you can get your hand on. Then, when you face the Bad Man, throw up a 30+ point Sword Trance and win every round of Spirit Combat against him (the sucker only has 175% Spirit Combat, not nearly enough), earning six Shaman Gifts in the process.

You don't actually need to have any skill in swords for this to work.

As your shaman mentor stands aside at the start of the sacred ceremony, tuts, and the low whisper of God learner is the last thing you hear as the Horned Man stamps on you with his big horned foot.

(apologies to egregious munchkinnery thread, but that was just not in the spirit of this thread)...