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Egregious munchkinnery!


PhilHibbs

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2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Why do you have to train from 15%? RQG p207 says you can use half your best skill in the category. I understand it you start at 25% (with the figures you gave).

Because it explicitly says that you have to keep track of the two separate skills, and that the offhand skill starts at 5% plus modifier, it does not start at half your best similar right hand weapon.

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I'm very certain you start at a 5% base, not half your right hand skill. Lefthanded 1h sword is a completely separate skill from right handed 1h sword. 

As @PhilHibbs said, put points into it at character creation if you want to dual wield decently well (or use Sword Trance to get 100% in it anyways). 

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7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

A Humakti should be able to get it up to 90, even with a modest +10% Manipulation modifier. It also depends on how generously you interpret the bonuses. Sartarites get Broadsword +15, should you get that as well for off-hand use? I don't see why not. That allows you to get you up to 95% or 100% depending on your modifier and how you allocate your cult and elective choices. What more do you want? 

An Orlanth Adventurous with the same +10 can get both sword skills to 95% and 85%. If you allow the +15 Sartarite bonus, which I would, then that 85% becomes 100%.

Two swords is perfectly achievable. The only down side is the reduced HP for parrying, and the inferior damage taking mechanics. Get yourself an iron sword to parry with, and bless it for +50% HP.

How would you get to 90 that way?

As much as I would like to assume the bonuses would apply to both hands, if that were the case, I see no reason to have an off-hand skill at all. If your culture provides +15 and your profession gives you +25%, which would follow the same arguement, you basically just end up with the same starting skill in both hands. That's clearly not RAI. 

Now, some interpret Javelin or Dagger as both melee and thrown, in which case the argument for sword bonuses applying to both hands kind of makes sense...but again, it defeats the purpose of ever mentioning an off-hand rule. 

Edit: Nevermind...I see this has already been clarified.

 

Edited by Tywyll
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3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

How would you get to 90 that way?

Base 5, Modifier 10, Occupation (Light Infantry) 25, Cult 10, Cult choice 15, personal choice 25 = 90

You can also get it to 100 if you take the Cult 20 for offhand broadsword instead of the Cult 10.

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

"The player must keep track of the individual weapon expertise of the adventurer with each weapon as used in each hand. Training or experience in using a weapon left-handed does not help the right-handed attack or parry with the same weapon, except that the half effectiveness rule applies. For example, use of a dagger left-handed, allows the adventurer to use it right-handed at half the left-handed ability". (my emphasis)

 

I believe the emphasis says it all. Thanx Shiningbrow and congrats and well played Kloster!

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

As much as I would like to assume the bonuses would apply to both hands, if that were the case, I see no reason to have an off-hand skill at all. If your culture provides +15 and your profession gives you +25%, which would follow the same arguement, you basically just end up with the same starting skill in both hands. That's clearly not RAI. 

 

Leading us to the debate, and my question, however it has been proven as RAW. Alas.

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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20 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I believe the emphasis says it all. Thanx Shiningbrow and congrats and well played Kloster!

Hm. Guess I missed that somehow. I guess that means if you want to increase it at character creation you're wasting quite a few points before they even start increasing the skill. 

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6 minutes ago, gochie said:

Hm. Guess I missed that somehow. I guess that means if you want to increase it at character creation you're wasting quite a few points before they even start increasing the skill. 

No not at all! If you take a Sartarite with a +10 Manipulation modifier using a broadsword and give the cultural bonus, then here's how it would go in the two systems:

Improve from half: Main hand 10 base + 15 cultural + 10 modifier = 35, halve it to get 18, then build from there.

Improve from 5%: Off hand 5 base + 15 cultural + 10 modifier = 25, build from there.

The cultural modifier wipes out and improves on any "benefit" of starting from half skill. It's 7% better.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

No not at all! If you take a Sartarite with a +10 Manipulation modifier using a broadsword and give the cultural bonus, then here's how it would go in the two systems:

Improve from half: Main hand 10 base + 15 cultural + 10 modifier = 35, halve it to get 18, then build from there.

Improve from 5%: Off hand 5 base + 15 cultural + 10 modifier = 25, build from there.

The cultural modifier wipes out and improves on any "benefit" of starting from half skill. It's 7% better.

And you consider that all "Broadsword" modifiers affect left hand weapons as well? 

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4 minutes ago, gochie said:

And you consider that all "Broadsword" modifiers affect left hand weapons as well? 

No, just the cultural bonus. That's the only one that I am assuming affects both. Well, plus the Manipulation category modifier of course.

Even if you don't, you're only starting out 3% lower in offhand than in main divided by two. You're really hurting over "wasting" 3%? Well, as a munchkin, yes I feel your pain! 3% is an OUTRAGE!

Edited by PhilHibbs
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3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Because it explicitly says that you have to keep track of the two separate skills, and that the offhand skill starts at 5% plus modifier, it does not start at half your best similar right hand weapon.

If I understand what you mean, if I have 5+10=15% left hand, but my right hand is 50%, I need a roll of 15 or less to get a tick, but a roll of 25 or less to succeed a roll with my left hand. Of course, the experience roll will also be based on the 15% value.

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28 minutes ago, gochie said:

And you consider that all "Broadsword" modifiers affect left hand weapons as well? 

 

27 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

No, just the cultural bonus. That's the only one that I am assuming affects both. Well, plus the Manipulation category modifier of course.

I would count all modifiers except the professional ones. But culture, cults and Manipulation category, yes. For me, the +10% for Sartar and the +10% for Orlanth Adventurous have to be added to both hands.

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2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I would count all modifiers except the professional ones. But culture, cults and Manipulation category, yes. For me, the +10% for Sartar and the +10% for Orlanth Adventurous have to be added to both hands.

I think that's reasonable, but I didn't for my Humakti example and still made it to 100% in both, but I had to use both the +20 and +10 cult weapon skills. For the Orlanthi, missing out on one of those +10s meant I had to use a +25 to get 100% instead of a +10 to get 95%.

Wearing my +1 munchkin hat, sometimes, depending on your category modifiers and a few other factors, you can't get to exactly 100%.

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I'm seeing this discussion somewhat similar to the related languages, with the half, 1/5, 1/10 skills...

You're always able to perform the skill at X% of the first skill, but can improve the others individually above that. Which, really, only becomes relevant when the original skill is so high that it's going to be tough getting the experience check. Otherwise, the off-hand/related language is always going to benefit from skill increases.

 

(I was almost confused by the RAW... after all, I didn't see a point in a) tracking each hand individually, and b) having the half-normal hand skill.... But, I think I get it now).

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I'm not exactly certain how "egregious" this is, but according to Control (Entity) it can be used to control "mundane animals such as hawks, dogs, mammoths, shadowcats, etc." I'm inclined to think this would include "normal" dinosaurs, but not "original" ones which were once Dragonewts according to the Bestiary. This requires the Discorporation Rune spell, although the Control (Entity) spell notes that it's mostly shamans who can use it. Doing so's somewhat safe, though; animals don't have listed Spirit Combat scores (and there seems to me no plausible reason to give them POWx5 like spirits) and most of the cool big critters have 3D6 POW (average 10-11). Plus, according to the Rune spell you can travel up to 5km on one RP, so you should be able to take down the critter before it can find you and eat you.

Having a mammoth, titanotheres, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as a permanent pet via Spell Extension sounds extra dope. Just make sure to give it a hefty Countermagic so enemies won't dismiss the one-point Control spell and let it run rampant. So two levels of Spell Extension per pet, then. Seems a fair trade. Trickiest part will probably be finding the spirit which knows the requisite Control spell in the Spirit World. Even the non-dinosaur critters have some great choices.

Discorporation Rune Spell is on p.326, and has a different description than the shaman's ability on p. 357. Control (Entity) is on p.258.

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Corollary to my prior post: doing drugs helps you get pets.

Hazia and Moon Flowers (Bestiary p.199) each provide the effect of the Discorporation spell (it says "spell" specifically, so probably not actually meaning the shaman ability with the same name). You could use this to go bully an animal into submission with Spirit Combat, then cast Control (Entity) to command it for two whole minutes. Or forever, if you're a shaman with Spell Extension (but without Rune magic, or just without the Discorporation spell).

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24 minutes ago, Crel said:

Corollary to my prior post: doing drugs helps you get pets.

Hazia and Moon Flowers (Bestiary p.199) each provide the effect of the Discorporation spell (it says "spell" specifically, so probably not actually meaning the shaman ability with the same name). You could use this to go bully an animal into submission with Spirit Combat, then cast Control (Entity) to command it for two whole minutes. Or forever, if you're a shaman with Spell Extension (but without Rune magic, or just without the Discorporation spell).

Or - sorcerous Dominate Animal... which will require quite a few MPs if you don't have the precise animal listed for the spell, but still a lot easier to acquire than either Rune or Spirit magic. And, has the added benefit of a much higher intensity than the spirit spell, no need to discorporate, and can (potentially) control the thing for years!

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3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or - sorcerous Dominate Animal... which will require quite a few MPs if you don't have the precise animal listed for the spell, but still a lot easier to acquire than either Rune or Spirit magic. And, has the added benefit of a much higher intensity than the spirit spell, no need to discorporate, and can (potentially) control the thing for years!

Fair enough. I'm not sure I'd say that one's easier or one's harder, but I like the Discorporation version better.

The big factors here are safety and Free INT. Base Range for sorcery is 10m. Range 6 (so, +5MP/INT if everything's mastered) is 130m, which feels to me like the start of "safe range" when dealing with big critters, particularly predators, considering the slow cast times. An upside is that at that sort of range, the animal's probably aware of you, but there's a fair chance it isn't interested until you throw the spell. Most of the cool pets have 3D6 POW; let's assume 11 rolled. If you've got the exact species, you can use a min of Strength 6, but still have to overcome the animal's POW with that Strength (25% chance). If you don't have the targeted species in your spell, you need equal Strength--but you probably want to have been upping the Strength anyway in order to get your overcome roll to at least 50/50. Of course, with an appropriate augment that might not be so important...

Assuming you've learned a rare spell like Dominate Triceratops, you only need Strength 6 (+5), Range 4 (+3, 50m--let's live dangerously), and then fill out the rest of our Free INT with Duration. Assuming INT 18, Free INT 17--gotta have a slot for the spell--that gives 8 levels spent, so Duration 10 (+9) available. That's two days. Spell's total cost (assuming we have both Command and Beast mastered, and aren't getting them through other sources) should be 2+5+3+9=19MP.

Of course there's other factors which could be involved--like using a common version of Dominate (Animal), such as the Dominate Bear listed in the spell example, and then building up an Inscription for extra levels, or having crazy-boosted INT from Enhance INT (who wouldn't?) to get the Free INT necessary for a years-long spell, making a Moon Rune augment to get +20% on the roll overcoming POW, etc. etc. etc.

Or I can Discorporate, beat it up in Spirit Combat, then Control it indefinitely. I like sorcery's upside of being able to get any beastie it sees, instead of hunting down a specific Control (Entity) spirit magic spell, but once you've got that spell I feel like the shaman version is simpler and safer, in particular because the creature's not likely to resist your shenanigans in any meaningful way since animals don't really seem able to engage in Spirit Combat.

That being said now that I've run a bit of the math I am quite intrigued by the idea of a menagerie sorcerer if you can get INT & MP stores high enough...

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18 minutes ago, Crel said:

Most of the cool pets have 3D6 POW; let's assume 11 rolled. If you've got the exact species, you can use a min of Strength 6, but still have to overcome the animal's POW with that Strength (25% chance).

Of course the pro munchkin will Drain Soul to get its MP down, and repeatedly cast the spell until they are lucky on the Str vs POW roll. Or just tap the damn thing's POW, infect it with Soul Waste, etc., and then get the healer to cast Restore Health until it gets its POW back. That way ALL the intensity of the spell can go on Range and Duration, none is needed on Strength.

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3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That way ALL the intensity of the spell can go on Range and Duration, none is needed on Strength.

Which unfortunately goes counter to the initial argument, that higher Spell Strength means Countermagic maintenance isn't necessary. Although it'll probably still have more Strength than Control (Entity)'s pitiful 1. As for tap, I don't think we have a spell to tap POW yet, just SIZ and Air IIRC.

16 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, sorcery also has the Geomancy spell, so that'd make tracking down said triceratops a whole lot easier!

Yeah? Well, in the shaman route I can do drugs to find my dino--and we all know winners do the drugs, right?

*angsty shaman noises*

(Just joking, of course. :))

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Perhaps it's relevant to ask if an animal would be aware it resisted a Dominate (Animal) spell? Would it just be like "whuh?" and do nothing, or would it get aggressive against creatures nearby? How would an animal react to getting spirit attacked? 

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10 minutes ago, Crel said:

Which unfortunately goes counter to the initial argument, that higher Spell Strength means Countermagic maintenance isn't necessary. Although it'll probably still have more Strength than Control (Entity)'s pitiful 1. As for tap, I don't think we have a spell to tap POW yet, just SIZ and Air IIRC.

Fair points. Shame that the generic Spell Resistance is gone, you could use Neutralize Spirit Magic to protect against Dispel Magic, but for Dismiss Magic, you'd need Neutralize (Rune) for all the runes that you think might be used against you.

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A little thought about applying the culture bonus to the left hand. 

Doesn’t Orlanthi culture consider being left handed weird and draconic? So therefore not something that you’d pick up as part of the culture? 

A bit like school here in the 50s when the teacher would slap your hand with a ruler if you tried to write left handed. 

Also isn’t Orlanthi warfare based around the shield wall. Again precluding the idea of fighting left handed as being a cultural skill. 

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32 minutes ago, BassJon said:

Doesn’t Orlanthi culture consider being left handed weird and draconic? So therefore not something that you’d pick up as part of the culture? 

Correct.

32 minutes ago, BassJon said:

Also isn’t Orlanthi warfare based around the shield wall. Again precluding the idea of fighting left handed as being a cultural skill. 

I think not correct. I see the Sartarite military foot Units using shield wall (and thus needing all shields on the same arm and all weapons in the same hand). Cavalry unis, Heortlander, Oktorionis have probably other ways of fighting. The non military units are probably fighting with every elements doing what it wants.

But my comments were based on the way the rules are written, not on how I perceive Orlanthis, nor how things are working in the real world.

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