Egregious munchkinnery!

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Pentallion said:

A:  from the Malkioni perspective, the gods are just sorcerers, nothing more.  B:  The only real god does NOT move amongst his worshippers, he is not present at all.   Hence, Invisible.  Unlike the phony gods.  This sorcerers are called atheists because they do not believe in the tangible gods.

The sorcerers do recognize the existence of the tangible gods when they summon and manipulate them with their magic. They just don't worship them (as superior beings, ancestor worship can be very much a thing).

The Brithini trace their descent from goddesses, and their founder and ancestor Malkion is both an individual born to a union of deities and an emanation of the One Mind. With this self-image, their ancestors and their kin (the gods) are like nothing more than more primal versions of themselves.

The Malkioni blame a vast number of mistakes of the Gods War onto those deities, their kin who in their view chose self-aggrandizement over the logical perspective. (For some unclear reason, the Brithini don't include Zzabur in that array of self-aggrandizing powerful magicians. The no longer immortal Malkioni do point out at least a number of mistakes of Zzabur.)

[HreshtIronBorne]

Joerg and Phil just made me think of this over in the Bless Pregnancy thread that's going. I had a total Munchkin hat idea that I thought might fit better here. A Rune Priestess of Ernalda could in theory have up to 21 CHA and 21 RP with no HQ expansions or extensions of RP, just keep it RAW as far as we have now. What about the Clan treasures, and all the other POW the Rune-Priestess gained during her lifetime, after maxing RP? 

Matrix Creation

1 Point Enchantment, Ritual, Stackable

This spell is used to store the potentiality of a spirit magic or Rune spell in an item. Anyone who can use the item gains the ability to use the spell whenever they are in physical contact with the item, though they lose the potentiality of the spell as soon as they lose that contact. POW points equal to the magic points or Rune points needed to cast the spell must be sacrificed to create the matrix. An enchanter cannot make a matrix for a spell they do not have access to.

...The POW sacrificed for the enchantment does not have to be provided entirely by the enchanter; if the enchanter sacrifices at least 1 point of their own POW, others can voluntarily contribute to the sacrifice, with no limit.

Does this mean that the Great Temple to Ernalda nearest our town has a ridiculously large bless Pregnancy Matrix? Would the Royal lines of different Cultures? I could see some awesome retiring Ernaldan contributing a goodly pile of Power to making something that the clan will treasure and benefit from for generations. And, in theory this spell has been around a while. There is probably no problem assuming you got a couple points, ESPECIALLY if you rolled up a Noble. You could even take the cost of the spells out of his 'inheritance' or starting money.

 

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Joerg and Phil just made me think of this over in the Bless Pregnancy thread that's going. I had a total Munchkin hat idea that I thought might fit better here. A Rune Priestess of Ernalda could in theory have up to 21 CHA and 21 RP with no HQ expansions or extensions of RP, just keep it RAW as far as we have now. What about the Clan treasures, and all the other POW the Rune-Priestess gained during her lifetime, after maxing RP? 

Matrix Creation

1 Point Enchantment, Ritual, Stackable

This spell is used to store the potentiality of a spirit magic or Rune spell in an item. Anyone who can use the item gains the ability to use the spell whenever they are in physical contact with the item, though they lose the potentiality of the spell as soon as they lose that contact. POW points equal to the magic points or Rune points needed to cast the spell must be sacrificed to create the matrix. An enchanter cannot make a matrix for a spell they do not have access to.

...The POW sacrificed for the enchantment does not have to be provided entirely by the enchanter; if the enchanter sacrifices at least 1 point of their own POW, others can voluntarily contribute to the sacrifice, with no limit.

Does this mean that the Great Temple to Ernalda nearest our town has a ridiculously large bless Pregnancy Matrix? Would the Royal lines of different Cultures? I could see some awesome retiring Ernaldan contributing a goodly pile of Power to making something that the clan will treasure and benefit from for generations. And, in theory this spell has been around a while. There is probably no problem assuming you got a couple points, ESPECIALLY if you rolled up a Noble. You could even take the cost of the spells out of his 'inheritance' or starting money.

 

20L per Rune Point...

Depends if your GM allows that the starting wealth you had was similar to the wealth they had when you were born, and that you can spend those heirlooms etc prior to your birth.

(and, rules lawyering... I think I saw only 1 roll for extra money prior to your birth in the Family History, and that's only if you're not a Satarite).

Your kids though.....

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

20L per Rune Point...

Depends if your GM allows that the starting wealth you had was similar to the wealth they had when you were born, and that you can spend those heirlooms etc prior to your birth.

(and, rules lawyering... I think I saw only 1 roll for extra money prior to your birth in the Family History, and that's only if you're not a Satarite).

Your kids though.....

an egregious Munchkin might, just might, start far enough back in the family history to become his own child... just saying. 

[Crel]

12 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If STR, CON (and if possible, SIZ) become 'dump' stats (ie, not so crappy you can't pick up your sword) and try to get high in INT (21 is best, for the extra +5% on lots of categories), we know the CHA needs to be at least 18, and so should POW...

(Moved from characteristic generation thread because felt like we were moving into Egregious Munchkinnery territory )

STR's important for making up your ENC. CON's important for HP, so it doesn't factor into skills but is far from a "dump" stat. I think SIZ can be a "dump" stat, more or less. You want STR+SIZ to be 25+ for the 1D4 damage bonus, and SIZ 13 gives a bonus Hit Point (but reduces Stealth by 5%, which is kind of whatever?). That 1D4 can often be the difference between getting through armor or not.

I don't think you can get more than 20 INT in RAW chargen. Fire/Sky as your highest, use some of your +3 points if under 92 to get to 18 then the Rune buffs to 20. (Those +3 can't go above 18, as Phil pointed out to me earlier in this thread.) So, I'd settle for aiming for 17+ INT.

Ironically Rune Lords don't seem to have a requirement on POW, or RP built up? Although as a GM I'd rule they have to have at least 5RP like priests, but I don't think there's a requirement present in the text. I'd say optimally, you want a minimum of 5 POW. At 5, you get the 1D6 Spirit Combat mod w/ CHA 18, but don't take the penalties to all of your skills. Of course more POW is generally better, but as a Rune Lord you resist with POW 21 at all times so that's pretty great.

If you want to be as heavily armored as can be, you want STR 15: Closed helm (ENC 2), Plate vambraces (ENC 2), Segmented plate (Chest&ab, ENC 5), Plate greaves (ENC 2), a weapon (usually ENC 1), and a Large Shield (ENC 3). You can wear leather underneath all locations for an additional +1AP at no ENC increase. This combo results in 7AP in all locations, plus an HP16 shield to parry with. If you've got STR 16, pick up a few darts to clip to your shield (2 darts for ENC1) to get a quick ranged attack.

[Anunnaki]

10 minutes ago, Crel said:

You can wear leather underneath all locations for an additional +1AP at no ENC increase.

In the most recent printing/download version of the RQG rulebook (and in the errata document that Rick posted in the Downloads section on these forums), other than leather vambraces (which for some reason are still rated as 0 ENC), the leather armors are all at least (2)* ENC. For all seven locations, depending on final armor combinations, probably going to weigh you down another 2 ENC or so for that extra leather. Which simply means you need more STR!

* Two such items = 1 ENC.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Anunnaki

[Tywyll]

On 5/5/2019 at 8:45 AM, Crel said:

AFAICT, there's no reason to not wear leather vambraces, hauberk, and pants below your other armor. The table on p.215 notes "Can be worn under any other armor, with a cumulative encumbrance penalty" for those items but the listed ENC is 0. So.... Free AP!

I think. Unless I buggered the reading again. Am I wrong?

In RQ2 there was an encumbrance of (2) for those undergarments, which I still use because yeah, otherwise there is no reason not to. 

[Crel]

1 minute ago, Anunnaki said:

Which simply means you need more STR!

HULK TANK!

Also a bit torn because 1) Damn, got rid of the exploit and 2) Good, they got rid of the exploit.

New optimized armor (maybe, unless I misread crap again?) for STR 15: Full helm (ENC 2) with leather hood beneath (ENC [2]), Plate vambraces (ENC 2), Heavy scale hauberk (ENC 3) with quilted linothorax beneath (ENC 1), Plate greaves (ENC 2) with leather pants beneath (ENC [2]), for a total of ENC 11. AP 7 in head and chest, 8 in abdomen (if you can stack hauberk, linothorax, and pants--I see no rule against multi-stacking if you've got the ENC...), AP6 in arms, AP 7 in legs.

In any case, heavy scale hauberk + quilted linothorax is just plain better than segmented bronze plate. AP 7 ENC 4 v. AP 6 ENC 5. Substantially cheaper, too. 85L v. 300L.

Should be noted that while the chart does not mark it, the entries for leather hood and quilted linothorax on p.217 each state they can be worn beneath other armors.

[Tywyll]

14 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Joerg and Phil just made me think of this over in the Bless Pregnancy thread that's going. I had a total Munchkin hat idea that I thought might fit better here. A Rune Priestess of Ernalda could in theory have up to 21 CHA and 21 RP with no HQ expansions or extensions of RP, just keep it RAW as far as we have now. What about the Clan treasures, and all the other POW the Rune-Priestess gained during her lifetime, after maxing RP? 

Matrix Creation

1 Point Enchantment, Ritual, Stackable

This spell is used to store the potentiality of a spirit magic or Rune spell in an item. Anyone who can use the item gains the ability to use the spell whenever they are in physical contact with the item, though they lose the potentiality of the spell as soon as they lose that contact. POW points equal to the magic points or Rune points needed to cast the spell must be sacrificed to create the matrix. An enchanter cannot make a matrix for a spell they do not have access to.

...The POW sacrificed for the enchantment does not have to be provided entirely by the enchanter; if the enchanter sacrifices at least 1 point of their own POW, others can voluntarily contribute to the sacrifice, with no limit.

Does this mean that the Great Temple to Ernalda nearest our town has a ridiculously large bless Pregnancy Matrix? Would the Royal lines of different Cultures? I could see some awesome retiring Ernaldan contributing a goodly pile of Power to making something that the clan will treasure and benefit from for generations. And, in theory this spell has been around a while. There is probably no problem assuming you got a couple points, ESPECIALLY if you rolled up a Noble. You could even take the cost of the spells out of his 'inheritance' or starting money.

 

The availability of this spell is what sparked the idea for my current campaign where the PCs are all genetically engineered super beings thanks to this spell and the King's connections. 

[Tywyll]

31 minutes ago, Crel said:

(Moved from characteristic generation thread because felt like we were moving into Egregious Munchkinnery territory )

STR's important for making up your ENC. CON's important for HP, so it doesn't factor into skills but is far from a "dump" stat. I think SIZ can be a "dump" stat, more or less. You want STR+SIZ to be 25+ for the 1D4 damage bonus, and SIZ 13 gives a bonus Hit Point (but reduces Stealth by 5%, which is kind of whatever?). That 1D4 can often be the difference between getting through armor or not.

I don't think you can get more than 20 INT in RAW chargen. Fire/Sky as your highest, use some of your +3 points if under 92 to get to 18 then the Rune buffs to 20. (Those +3 can't go above 18, as Phil pointed out to me earlier in this thread.) So, I'd settle for aiming for 17+ INT.

Ironically Rune Lords don't seem to have a requirement on POW, or RP built up? Although as a GM I'd rule they have to have at least 5RP like priests, but I don't think there's a requirement present in the text. I'd say optimally, you want a minimum of 5 POW. At 5, you get the 1D6 Spirit Combat mod w/ CHA 18, but don't take the penalties to all of your skills. Of course more POW is generally better, but as a Rune Lord you resist with POW 21 at all times so that's pretty great.

If you want to be as heavily armored as can be, you want STR 15: Closed helm (ENC 2), Plate vambraces (ENC 2), Segmented plate (Chest&ab, ENC 5), Plate greaves (ENC 2), a weapon (usually ENC 1), and a Large Shield (ENC 3). You can wear leather underneath all locations for an additional +1AP at no ENC increase. This combo results in 7AP in all locations, plus an HP16 shield to parry with. If you've got STR 16, pick up a few darts to clip to your shield (2 darts for ENC1) to get a quick ranged attack.

You just hit the nail on the head of one of my beefs with RQ/BRP... we have 'racial maximums' that are impossible to reach! I mean, in RQ2 you actually could reach them thanks to the treasure in the game (scrolls of Stat +X). But since those have disappeared, apparently, these maximums serve no real purpose that I can see. In RQG you might as well just say attributes have a max of 20 and leave it at that since that's all players can achieve without magic anyway. 👿

[PhilHibbs]

27 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

You just hit the nail on the head of one of my beefs with RQ/BRP... we have 'racial maximums' that are impossible to reach! I mean, in RQ2 you actually could reach them thanks to the treasure in the game (scrolls of Stat +X). But since those have disappeared, apparently, these maximums serve no real purpose that I can see. In RQG you might as well just say attributes have a max of 20 and leave it at that since that's all players can achieve without magic anyway. 👿

You can't get them at character creation time, so it's pointless? Really?

Anyway, some cultures have modifiers, Bison Riders get +2 SIZ, so 18 SIZ and Darkness dominant would give 22 if not for the species maximum.

Also a Humakti with INT 20 (rolled 18, Fire dominant) can take "increase a raiseable characteristic" for 1 geas and get INT 21. He can then take "increase a non-raiseable characteristic" for 3 geases and get it to 22.

I think the simplicity of all stats having the same calculation for species maximum, despite some of them being less achievable than others, is better than having a different calculation for each one for no good reason. Are you really arguing that the rules should specify that the species maximum INT for humans is 20, whereas the species maximum for POW is 21?

Also, any child born under a Bless Pregnancy spell can have an INT of 21, because that's the species maximum.

Oh, and those scrolls weren't in the basic RQ2 rules so by your logic the RQ2 rules should have had lower species maximums, making those treasures impossible.

Edited May 10, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Crel]

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also a Humakti with INT 20 (rolled 18, Fire dominant) can take "increase a raiseable characteristic" for 1 geas and get INT 21. He can then take "increase a non-raiseable characteristic" for 3 geases and get it to 22.

I don't think that's right. I think "raiseable characteristic" means any characteristic which is able to be raised by normal means. So raising SIZ or INT would require 3 geese. I feel like there's no issues with the geese raising characteristics above species max, though.

[gochie]

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't get them at character creation time, so it's pointless? Really?

Anyway, some cultures have modifiers, Bison Riders get +2 SIZ, so 18 SIZ and Darkness dominant would give 22 if not for the species maximum.

Also a Humakti with INT 20 (rolled 18, Fire dominant) can take "increase a raiseable characteristic" for 1 geas and get INT 21. He can then take "increase a non-raiseable characteristic" for 3 geases and get it to 22.

You can also train any characteristic (except INT) to species max for 500L a pop. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by gochie

[Kloster]

5 minutes ago, Crel said:

I don't think that's right. I think "raiseable characteristic" means any characteristic which is able to be raised by normal means. So raising SIZ or INT would require 3 geese. I feel like there's no issues with the geese raising characteristics above species max, though.

I have the same read as you.

[Kloster]

Just now, gochie said:

You can also train an characteristic (except INT) to species max for 500L a pop. 

except INT and SIZ, and duration is 1 season now, so not easy, but the max is important.

[gochie]

Just now, Kloster said:

except INT and SIZ, and duration is 1 season now, so not easy, but the max is important.

Wait what? There's a duration to your increased stat? Since when? 

[PhilHibbs]

1 minute ago, Kloster said:

except INT and SIZ, and duration is 1 season now, so not easy, but the max is important.

I still don't think that the absence of any mechanism in the basic rules for getting that last extra +1 to INT means that the rules should say "INT maximum is 20 for humans, because we can't think of a way that it could get to 21".

Just now, gochie said:

Wait what? There's a duration to your increased stat? Since when? 

Required time for training, not duration of the increase...

[gochie]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

I still don't think that the absence of any mechanism in the basic rules for getting that last extra +1 to INT means that the rules should say "INT maximum is 20 for humans, because we can't think of a way that it could get to 21".

Required time for training, not duration of the increase...

Oh yeah, that I know. And its not a big deal really... You do it between adventures. 

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't get them at character creation time, so it's pointless? Really?

Before the Rune modifier, you couldn't get them at all is the problem. 

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Anyway, some cultures have modifiers, Bison Riders get +2 SIZ, so 18 SIZ and Darkness dominant would give 22 if not for the species maximum.

That is a very new rule. This is a problem that has existed since RQ1. 

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also a Humakti with INT 20 (rolled 18, Fire dominant) can take "increase a raiseable characteristic" for 1 geas and get INT 21. He can then take "increase a non-raiseable characteristic" for 3 geases and get it to 22.

Use of magic, especially a single corner case, doesn't explain its 'racial max' when racial max is described as the limit WITHOUT magic. I.e. how do you get an INT of 21 without resorting to magic? If you can't, it clearly isn't the species Max. Also, clearly non-raisable characteristic in this case is INT and SIZ, not a stat at 21 because these are magic increases.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the simplicity of all stats having the same calculation for species maximum, despite some of them being less achievable than others, is better than having a different calculation for each one for no good reason. Are you really arguing that the rules should specify that the species maximum INT for humans is 20, whereas the species maximum for POW is 21?

I think that species max should be attainable in play is my point. But yes, if IQ can't be raised (a silly idea based on bad science from the 70's) then it should have a different max.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also, any child born under a Bless Pregnancy spell can have an INT of 21, because that's the species maximum.

Again, magic.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Oh, and those scrolls weren't in the basic RQ2 rules so by your logic the RQ2 rules should have had lower species maximums, making those treasures impossible.

If they weren't, then yes. However, it seems clear to me that reading the RQ2 rulebook that it is incomplete with lots of stuff awaiting the expansions. Just because the scrolls weren't there doesn't mean they weren't in play and intended, so I'm not sure that's a smoking gun. Actually, thinking about it, there is such a scroll in Rainbow Mounds. It doesn't raise an attribute but it increases a skill similar to the other ones from Plunder, so yeah, I'd say they were always intended as part of the system. Regardless, the game gave you a way to attain those maxes, which is more than can be said about every iteration since. 

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

You can also train any characteristic (except INT) to species max for 500L a pop. 

Except Str, Con, and Siz which are linked to not rising above the highest natural of the three (or is this rule gone in RQG?).

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Quote

Also, any child born under a Bless Pregnancy spell can have an INT of 21, because that's the species maximum.

Again, magic.

Dude, Glorantha!

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Use of magic, especially a single corner case, doesn't explain its 'racial max' when racial max is described as the limit WITHOUT magic. I.e. how do you get an INT of 21 without resorting to magic? If you can't, it clearly isn't the species Max.

So your problem is with the terminology? Fine.

[Anunnaki]

15 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Except Str, Con, and Siz which are linked to not rising above the highest natural of the three (or is this rule gone in RQG?).

This rule is gone.

(p.418, RQG Rulebook)

STR, CON, CHA = trainable to species max.

POW = trainable/improvable to species max.

DEX = lower of (starting DEX x 1.5) or species max.

INT, SIZ = magical increase only

Magical increase beyond species max, for any characteristic.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Anunnaki

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I still don't think that the absence of any mechanism in the basic rules for getting that last extra +1 to INT means that the rules should say "INT maximum is 20 for humans, because we can't think of a way that it could get to 21".

Why not? They screwed up by limiting IQ, Str, Con, and SIZ from going above 18. Just call them what they are. 

 

[Tywyll]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Dude, Glorantha!

I absolutely have no problem with magic raising attributes. That's not the point.