Egregious munchkinnery!

[Tywyll]

11 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So your problem is with the terminology? Fine.

And if it isn't a max then what is the point of referencing it at all?

[Tywyll]

4 minutes ago, Anunnaki said:

This rule is gone.

(p.418, RQG Rulebook)

STR, CON, CHA = trainable to species max.

POW = trainable/improvable to species max.

DEX = lower of (starting DEX x 1.5) or species max.

INT, SIZ = magical increase only

Magical increase beyond species max, for any characteristic.

Thank the Gods for that change! Still don't know why they kept the Dex one though. 

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

And if it isn't a max then what is the point of referencing it at all?

If you didn't have that rule, you'd have to make up a rule for something like Bless Pregnancy, Troll drinks, weird stuff found in scenarios like The Sea Cave, etc. Far simpler to have a core mechanic that can then be referenced elsewhere.

5 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

I absolutely have no problem with magic raising attributes. That's not the point.

The point is that you have a mechanic for a tipping point beyond which magical improvement becomes much harder. Up to 21, relatively simple. Bless Pregnancy (or, in my opinion, "Increase a raiseable characteristic" gift) can take it up to that limit. Beyond 21, you need bigger magic to breach the "species maximum" threshold.

Edited May 10, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

(Moved from characteristic generation thread because felt like we were moving into Egregious Munchkinnery territory )

STR's important for making up your ENC. CON's important for HP, so it doesn't factor into skills but is far from a "dump" stat. I think SIZ can be a "dump" stat, more or less. You want STR+SIZ to be 25+ for the 1D4 damage bonus, and SIZ 13 gives a bonus Hit Point (but reduces Stealth by 5%, which is kind of whatever?). That 1D4 can often be the difference between getting through armor or not.

I don't think you can get more than 20 INT in RAW chargen. Fire/Sky as your highest, use some of your +3 points if under 92 to get to 18 then the Rune buffs to 20. (Those +3 can't go above 18, as Phil pointed out to me earlier in this thread.) So, I'd settle for aiming for 17+ INT.

Ironically Rune Lords don't seem to have a requirement on POW, or RP built up? Although as a GM I'd rule they have to have at least 5RP like priests, but I don't think there's a requirement present in the text. I'd say optimally, you want a minimum of 5 POW. At 5, you get the 1D6 Spirit Combat mod w/ CHA 18, but don't take the penalties to all of your skills. Of course more POW is generally better, but as a Rune Lord you resist with POW 21 at all times so that's pretty great.

If you want to be as heavily armored as can be, you want STR 15: Closed helm (ENC 2), Plate vambraces (ENC 2), Segmented plate (Chest&ab, ENC 5), Plate greaves (ENC 2), a weapon (usually ENC 1), and a Large Shield (ENC 3). You can wear leather underneath all locations for an additional +1AP at no ENC increase. This combo results in 7AP in all locations, plus an HP16 shield to parry with. If you've got STR 16, pick up a few darts to clip to your shield (2 darts for ENC1) to get a quick ranged attack.

"Dump stat" in that it's not one you want maxing out... or even needing to get massively high.

For creating a quick Rune Lord, the order of stats should probably be - INT, CHA, POW, DEX, followed by the other three (probably SIZ at the end - but it's a 2D6+6 anyway). (CHA is necessary for RL - Rune Lord... although, I'd suggest having a high CHA in Real Life is probably pretty useful as well 😛 )

Once you get to Rune Lord, your DIs become D10, and you can sacrifice your POW to up your other stats... with POW obviously being the easiest to increase (especially with the +20% and the incredible frequency of such rolls now - at least 1/season!

 

I think I mentioned using the Bless Pregnancy munchkinnery to get the INT to 21...

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, gochie said:

Wait what? There's a duration to your increased stat? Since when? 

No, there is a duration of 1 season on the training.

[gochie]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

"Dump stat" in that it's not one you want maxing out... or even needing to get massively high.

For creating a quick Rune Lord, the order of stats should probably be - INT, CHA, POW, DEX, followed by the other three (probably SIZ at the end - but it's a 2D6+6 anyway). (CHA is necessary for RL - Rune Lord... although, I'd suggest having a high CHA in Real Life is probably pretty useful as well 😛 )

Once you get to Rune Lord, your DIs become D10, and you can sacrifice your POW to up your other stats... with POW obviously being the easiest to increase (especially with the +20% and the incredible frequency of such rolls now - at least 1/season!

 

I think I mentioned using the Bless Pregnancy munchkinnery to get the INT to 21...

Where does it say you can sacrifice POW to increase other stats? Did I miss that somehow?

[Austin]

5 minutes ago, Kloster said:

No, there is a duration of 1 season on the training.

Increasing characteristics through training or research requires "two full seasons, during which no other training or research can take place." (RQG p.418) So kinda prohibitive, IMO, since IIRC you don't get occupational experience during that time either.

[Austin]

4 minutes ago, gochie said:

Where does it say you can sacrifice POW to increase other stats? Did I miss that somehow?

It's more like effectively saccing POW than an actual one-to-one relationship. On p.272, a Divine Intervention can be rolled to increase a characteristic by one point, up to species maximum. Rune Lords roll 1D10 for DI (p.280), and it's implied that they lose Rune points first, just like a priest. Likewise, I take it as implied that a RL's RP spent on DI comes back normally just as it does for a priest (on p.278).

Hope that helps.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Crel has it exactly as our group has understood the RAW as well. As far as I can tell the intention really is that Rune-Lords can effectively maximize their stats before really becoming all that old, and allowing them to fight off the effects of aging rather well!

[Tywyll]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Oh, and those scrolls weren't in the basic RQ2 rules so by your logic the RQ2 rules should have had lower species maximums, making those treasures impossible.

They were in the basic RQ1 rules (and RQ2). Page 100 in RQ1, page 94 in RQ2. So, yeah, there was a mechanic to push CHA and DEX potentially to racial max (though Str and Con were capped by that other silly rule). 

[Tywyll]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you didn't have that rule, you'd have to make up a rule for something like Bless Pregnancy, Troll drinks, weird stuff found in scenarios like The Sea Cave, etc. Far simpler to have a core mechanic that can then be referenced elsewhere.

Alternatively you leave it at 18. Or don't call it 'species max'. Or, I don't know, actually make rules that allow it to be achieved normally. 

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The point is that you have a mechanic for a tipping point beyond which magical improvement becomes much harder. Up to 21, relatively simple. Bless Pregnancy (or, in my opinion, "Increase a raiseable characteristic" gift) can take it up to that limit. Beyond 21, you need bigger magic to breach the "species maximum" threshold.

So set the number to what is achievable (i.e. 18). Then let magic go beyond that. OR allow characters to achieve it in play, sans magic...since it is supposed to be the limit a creature can attain WITHOUT magic. 

[Tywyll]

31 minutes ago, Crel said:

It's more like effectively saccing POW than an actual one-to-one relationship. On p.272, a Divine Intervention can be rolled to increase a characteristic by one point, up to species maximum. Rune Lords roll 1D10 for DI (p.280), and it's implied that they lose Rune points first, just like a priest. Likewise, I take it as implied that a RL's RP spent on DI comes back normally just as it does for a priest (on p.278).

Hope that helps.

That's...interesting. Even if your POW dropped, you would still defend with Max Pow. 

I'd probably allow it to increase by 1d3. Potentially losing 10 POW for 1 point of strength is pretty rubbish. 

[gochie]

31 minutes ago, Crel said:

It's more like effectively saccing POW than an actual one-to-one relationship. On p.272, a Divine Intervention can be rolled to increase a characteristic by one point, up to species maximum. Rune Lords roll 1D10 for DI (p.280), and it's implied that they lose Rune points first, just like a priest. Likewise, I take it as implied that a RL's RP spent on DI comes back normally just as it does for a priest (on p.278).

Hope that helps.

Ah I see. Pretty sure I understand sacrificing Rune Points for Divine Intervention as non-reusable - Your God keeps them as if they were POW.

[Austin]

20 minutes ago, gochie said:

Ah I see. Pretty sure I understand sacrificing Rune Points for Divine Intervention as non-reusable - Your God keeps them as if they were POW.

That definitely feels reasonable to me. However, RAW, "Any Rune points spent in divine intervention are replenished normally." This is only explicitly noted for the priest, but some portion of the priest's text seems implicit in the RL's text as well. The full DI text for RL's reads:

Quote

When a Rune Lord checks for divine intervention (see page 272), they roll 1D10 rather than a D100 to determine if the intervention occurs, and to determine how many Rune points are lost.

Because of the direct tie with their god, Rune Lords may even call upon their god after death, calling for one favor, as described in the section on Rune Lord—Divine Intervention.

Nvm, it's noted explicitly on p.273 that RL's get RP back too:

Quote

When a Rune Lord appeals for divine intervention, their god always answers. Unlike initiates and Rune Priests, Rune Lords roll 1D10 for divine intervention. They lose unspent Rune points and POW equal to the number rolled in return for divine intervention. Rune points are always taken first, then POW. If a roll is low enough, sometimes only Rune points are lost.

As with priests, any Rune points spent in divine intervention are regained normally (at the next Holy Day, etc.)

I feel like this is a design choice so that Rune levels don't suddenly "un-initiate" by perma-losing all their RP in a divine intervention, even if it does open up some exploitable space for RLs to raise their characteristics. Still, I don't feel overall that exploit's too vicious, and it's not something I'm personally super worried about.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Except Str, Con, and Siz which are linked to not rising above the highest natural of the three (or is this rule gone in RQG?).

gone...

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Crel said:

I don't think that's right. I think "raiseable characteristic" means any characteristic which is able to be raised by normal means. So raising SIZ or INT would require 3 geese. I feel like there's no issues with the geese raising characteristics above species max, though.

HOLY HECK! LOOK AT THOSE BUFF GEESE!

Yeah. they've been working out and raising their stats above species max! and I think they're Canadian too, eh.

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Except Str, Con, and Siz which are linked to not rising above the highest natural of the three (or is this rule gone in RQG?).

It is gone. This one is from RQIII.

[gochie]

 

 

 

 

 

4

1 hour ago, Crel said:

That definitely feels reasonable to me. However, RAW, "Any Rune points spent in divine intervention are replenished normally." This is only explicitly noted for the priest, but some portion of the priest's text seems implicit in the RL's text as well. The full DI text for RL's reads:

Nvm, it's noted explicitly on p.273 that RL's get RP back too:

I feel like this is a design choice so that Rune levels don't suddenly "un-initiate" by perma-losing all their RP in a divine intervention, even if it does open up some exploitable space for RLs to raise their characteristics. Still, I don't feel overall that exploit's too vicious, and it's not something I'm personally super worried about.

Hmmm guess you're right.

Seems overpowered to me to increase a stat every season though... Very overpowered. I will likely propose the points to be one-use in my Glorantha.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

That definitely feels reasonable to me. However, RAW, "Any Rune points spent in divine intervention are replenished normally." This is only explicitly noted for the priest, but some portion of the priest's text seems implicit in the RL's text as well. The full DI text for RL's reads:

Nvm, it's noted explicitly on p.273 that RL's get RP back too:

I feel like this is a design choice so that Rune levels don't suddenly "un-initiate" by perma-losing all their RP in a divine intervention, even if it does open up some exploitable space for RLs to raise their characteristics. Still, I don't feel overall that exploit's too vicious, and it's not something I'm personally super worried about.

I have the same read as you. And I don't think it a problem because you began your DI by sacrificing a permanent RP (RQG p272) and you can't raise a char above racial max that way.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, gochie said:

Hmmm guess you're right.

Seems overpowered to me to increase a stat every season though... Very overpowered. I will likely propose the points to be one-use in my Glorantha.

Not when you consider that you are the ultimate representative of the cult, and it is your sworn duty to protect the cult, and be its greatest defender.

Your god wants you to be strong, and powerful, and to fight the good fights!

What good are cult champions who have terrible stats???

(ETA: Note that it's only the Rune Lords that get the 1D10 rolls for a DI to increase a stat... they're still going to lose 1 POW though. Priests and God-Talkers aren't likely to do this, because of the D100 hit)

Edited May 11, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(ETA: Note that it's only the Rune Lords that get the 1D10 rolls for a DI to increase a stat... they're still going to lose 1 POW though. Priests and God-Talkers aren't likely to do this, because of the D100 hit)

Rune Lords don't lose a POW but a Rune Point (that can be replaced by spending a POW, gaining a spell at the same time). You can even do it several times in  a season if the D10 is sufficiently low. The loss is the same for the others, but you're right, the D100 loss means a low probability of trying.

[HreshtIronBorne]

From Divine Intervention: Procedure Pg. 272 Core Rulebook RQG

 

Calling for divine intervention takes no time, and occurs simultaneously, in the time between a blow striking and the adventurer’s death, for example. In appealing for divine intervention, the adventurer must first permanently sacrifice 1 Rune point and then the player must state in a precise way what their adventurer wishes the divine intervention to achieve.

 

So yeah, whether you describe it as trading POW or saccing RP it is in the end limited by the POW economy. The more POW gain rolls the better nearly any kind of character scales.

Edited May 11, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne

[Shiningbrow]

Yeah, I was simplifying... effectively trading 1 POW for 1 (other stat). There's a round-about way of how it works, but that's what it equals in the end...

[Tywyll]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yeah, I was simplifying... effectively trading 1 POW for 1 (other stat). There's a round-about way of how it works, but that's what it equals in the end...

Wait, why is it only 1? 

[PhilHibbs]

10 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Wait, why is it only 1? 

You spend a permanent Rune Point (which is almost the same as losing 1 POW), and then roll a D10 (for a Rune Lord) for the number of temporary Rune Points you lose.

Edited May 13, 2019 by PhilHibbs