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PhilHibbs

Warning: Egregious munchkinnery!

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7 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Wait, why is it only 1? 

Rune Lords sacrifice 1 Rune Point permanently (p272) to implement a Divine Intervention.

The player then rolls 1D10, and they lose that many Rune Points... but those are replenishable. p273.

I'm obviously presuming that the Rune Lord isn't so stupid as to try this without having a full stock of Rune Points available, and that they have sacrificed more than 10 POW to get those Rune Points...

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On the topic of lost Rune Points...do they count against unspent only or can spent be included? If I've got 5 RP and I've spend all of them, can I still ask for DI?

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15 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

On the topic of lost Rune Points...do they count against unspent only or can spent be included? If I've got 5 RP and I've spend all of them, can I still ask for DI?

Maybe you can sacrifice the first permanent RP from "spent" RP, I'm not sure if I'd allow that or not, but the 1D10 is definitely going to come straight off your POW.

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6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe you can sacrifice the first permanent RP from "spent" RP, I'm not sure if I'd allow that or not, but the 1D10 is definitely going to come straight off your POW.

Any particular reason for this beyond GM's call?

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4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Any particular reason for this beyond GM's call?

Which part, the first or the second? The first part is GM's call, until we get an official clarification, and even then YGMV. The second I'd have thought was pretty clear and doesn't need clarification. Let me re-read the section... 

Quote

They lose unspent
Rune points and POW equal to the number rolled in return
for divine intervention. Rune points are always taken first,
then POW.

Seems pretty clear to me. No unspent Rune points, it's all POW.

As to the first point...

Quote

In appealing for
divine intervention, the adventurer must first permanently
sacrifice 1 Rune point and then the player must state in a
precise way what their adventurer wishes the divine intervention
to achieve.

Hm. I suppose a spent Rune point is still a sacrifice, equivalent to 1 POW, so I guess that would be ok.

Then again, with my GM hat on, you're all egregious munchkins so I'm going to be mean to you and say no!

Edited by PhilHibbs
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The obvious difference is - if it all comes from POW (even the initial point loss), then the Priest can lose their status. It also affects MPs, may affect skills, Spirit Combat damage, etc. Also affects POW gain rolls.

So, taking the first point from spent or unspent Rune Points would be mechanically different from taking first from POW.

So, "Damn, I can't cast that last point of X spell until I POWer up, and sacrifice for it again... may sometime whenever" is quite different to "Damn, I won't be able to hurt spirits as much, and I"m down 5% on half my skills... I need to get that POW back!!!" The first is worth the extra point of STR, DEX etc... the second probably isn't.

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I haven't done the full munchkinning yet, but do note that the Family Histories section is either roll or choose an event from the lists. In particular, this could get an adventurer's Battle skill up quickly if we're trying to figure out how close an adventurer can get to Rune Lord from the start of play.

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The rule (for me) seems clear: First, loose a Rune point (not POW). It is ambiguous if an already spent RP can be sacrified or not. Then roll the dice (1D10 or 1D100), spend a number of unspent RP equal to the dice result. If the number of available unspent RP is lower than the dice result, loose a number of POW equal to the dice result minus the number of available unspent RP. If the power is brought to 0, the character dies. If the result of the dice is greater than the number of available RP + POW, the DI failed because the god did not answer.

The 1st RP is definitively lost. The other are then spent, and have to be regained as if spells had been cast with them. Lost POW points have to be regain by POW gain rolls as usual.

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Our group has gotten to the very end of the eleven Lights campaign and are approaching the Battle of Dangerford. Our party is currently discussing all of the ways to use the Wyter which is now at the center of our group, our Orlanthi PC is the High Priest of the Wyter. Now, I am not looking for any hints tips or tricks, I am just a player in 11 Lights and haven't read any of the GM stuff. We are improvising the SMU stuff with a ceremony and a magical nuclear option, mostly handwavy to go along with what the guide and stuff says. We are mostly using the 11 Lights as a standard wyter in a military regiment. I just figured this would be the best place to drop some of the thoughts we have come up with for using a Wyter for fun and profit!

Minor Temple, Clan, or Regiment 251–1,000  POW 6D6+6   CHA 4D6 

Every Season during a worship ceremony with 525 initiate members of the Eleven Lights Regiment it can sacrifice for casting and maintaining any of the Rune Spells the High Priest of the Wyter knows, our example will be using the Orlanthi priest we currently have as PC High Priest. Our current plan is to rotate through a set of 5 spells every season. Sea Season is Shield 35 Extension 5 on the Wyter itself to protect it. Fire season would be Earth Shield (3 RP) stacked with Extension 5 targeting all of the priests and high priests and leaders of every subdivision, it can target up to 165 members of the community by sacrificing its remaining POW over 1. Earth Season cast Leap 3, as it doesn't need any Rune affinity to control its use a la Flight, Extension 5 165 dude. Dark Season cast Darkwalk, Extension 5, 175 dudes this time. Storm Season Cast Flight 3, Extension 5, 165 dudes. Sacred Time? I dunno if the wyter gets a worship ceremony then but, if it did you can do a sixth spell, Charisma maybe? Good for non-combat encounters and handy if spirits attack.

 

You can POW all this because with 525 members of an active regiment they will reliably gain POW checks more than a group of farmers hanging at home, especially now that there are two guaranteed gain rolls a year, more if more cults. If you focused on targeting the PCs it would cost WAY less POW, you could also focus only on group leaders all the way down the chain of command, I can't remember that exact figure right now for the canon 11 L SMU. 

 

So, yeah. This is our plan for turning our troops into the Best shock troops we can manage and protecting the wyter to the best of our abilities.

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Munchikining or not?

Party is a LM Sage, Humakti Warrior/War leader, Issaries merchant, Lanbril thief/wannabe trickster, Daka Fal Shaman, Orlanthi Hunter/Archer of Siwend (11 Lights Orlanth Subcult), Agimori Lodrili Warrior, Orlanthi Noble/Warrior/Leader. These dudes are all connected to the wyter of the Eleven Lights, the Orlanthi noble/warrior is the High priest of the 11 Lights.

The sage know Boon of Kargan Tor, Solac of the Logical Mind, Logician, and Enahnce Int. Maintains Boon of Kargan Tor (+2d6 damage) on every weapon in the party and a quiver of arrows for each archer, maintains Enhance Int on self always, Solace on self always, and many Logicians/On demand logician. 

The Humakti does Humakti stuff, Trueswords, Sword Trances, Morale (fantastic spell, btw). Fully online he hits something like 500%and change to hit for 4d8+2d6+2d6+8 (Averaging 40), specialing for 8d8+2d6+2d6+8 (Averaging 58).

The Shaman has gone bonkers AF in the last few sessions. How does the Divine Spell Multispell interact with the Shaman power of Spell Barrage. Our answer was that it was Freaking messed up and devastating, allowing each 'barrage' to contain the number of additional Multispell targets/spells. 

The Orlanthi Archer, Issaries, Agimori, and Lanril thief have been front-liners and not doing anything crazy/questionably munchkin, though the Trickster/Thief has made devastating use of Shatter and Strike spells.

Now with access to a wyter, trying to figure out how to use it without going straight to HARDCORE ABUSE has been the order of the last few sessions.

 

RQ:G turns things up to "11" in the core rules and I am really intrigued to see where they are gonna go with the power scaling on opponents in future adventures. Our PCs have played through 7 years of game time, which is WAY more than we ever got through without skipping large chunks in 'training' in RQ3. These characters are already WAY stronger even out the gate than a lot of our graveyard of Would-be Rune-Lords from way back in RQ3.

Edited by HreshtIronBorne

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Spoiler ahead

45 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

RQ:G turns things up to "11" in the core rules and I am really intrigued to see where they are gonna go with the power scaling on opponents in future adventures. Our PCs have played through 7 years of game time, which is WAY more than we ever got through without skipping large chunks in 'training' in RQ3. These characters are already WAY stronger even out the gate than a lot of our graveyard of Would-be Rune-Lords from way back in RQ3.

Dream dragons ahead! :}

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Munchikining or not?

Party is a LM Sage, Humakti Warrior/War leader, Issaries merchant, Lanbril thief/wannabe trickster, Daka Fal Shaman, Orlanthi Hunter/Archer of Siwend (11 Lights Orlanth Subcult), Agimori Lodrili Warrior, Orlanthi Noble/Warrior/Leader. These dudes are all connected to the wyter of the Eleven Lights, the Orlanthi noble/warrior is the High priest of the 11 Lights.

The sage know Boon of Kargan Tor, Solac of the Logical Mind, Logician, and Enahnce Int. Maintains Boon of Kargan Tor (+2d6 damage) on every weapon in the party and a quiver of arrows for each archer, maintains Enhance Int on self always, Solace on self always, and many Logicians/On demand logician. 

The Humakti does Humakti stuff, Trueswords, Sword Trances, Morale (fantastic spell, btw). Fully online he hits something like 500%and change to hit for 4d8+2d6+2d6+8 (Averaging 40), specialing for 8d8+2d6+2d6+8 (Averaging 58).

The Shaman has gone bonkers AF in the last few sessions. How does the Divine Spell Multispell interact with the Shaman power of Spell Barrage. Our answer was that it was Freaking messed up and devastating, allowing each 'barrage' to contain the number of additional Multispell targets/spells. 

The Orlanthi Archer, Issaries, Agimori, and Lanril thief have been front-liners and not doing anything crazy/questionably munchkin, though the Trickster/Thief has made devastating use of Shatter and Strike spells.

Now with access to a wyter, trying to figure out how to use it without going straight to HARDCORE ABUSE has been the order of the last few sessions.

 

RQ:G turns things up to "11" in the core rules and I am really intrigued to see where they are gonna go with the power scaling on opponents in future adventures. Our PCs have played through 7 years of game time, which is WAY more than we ever got through without skipping large chunks in 'training' in RQ3. These characters are already WAY stronger even out the gate than a lot of our graveyard of Would-be Rune-Lords from way back in RQ3.

A) I don't see any logical reason for the Spell Barrage & Multispell to be a multiple effect, rather than an additive. Ie, both just allow an extra spell to be cast at the same time -ie, they do the same thing. Therefore, at best, Spell Barrage 1 combined with Multispell 1 should allow the Shaman to cast 3 (and only 3) spells for every casting of a spell... not 4. SB/MS 2 adds another spell, not multiplies the lot by 2...

 

b) Although RAW, the Wyter can cast any spell known by its priest, I'd rule that it's only relevant for any priestly spells for the deity worshipped (at the temple). Thus, only that deity's spells, plus those few Associated Cult spells (if they've been Sacrificed for). Significance, obviously, is if the priest controlling the Wyter has initiated (and higher) into multiple cults, you don't get all of those spells!

C) Logician is an Active spell... having even one casting operating at a time is quite debilitating. (unless, of course, your sorcerer has invented a spell not too unlike Solace of the Logical Mind, in which they've trained/spelled their mind to be able to concentrate on active spells without that debilitation... 1 point per spell, similar strength/point as Enhance INT). Besides which, there's not usually a point in having Logician cast permanently, rather than just as on demand. (Maybe Battle for those rare occasions you might get ambushed, or suddenly and unexpectedly enter into combat... and that's still with GM approval for it doing anything useful).

D) Morale is great - but it's an hour long ritual, and lasts 12 hours. So, if you know you're going into battle - great! If you don't, well, it's not happening.

E) As soon as the enemies see those guys charging (especially the decked out Humakti - probably blowing (see the related thread 😛 ), Dispel Magic will be flying!

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7 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

RQ:G turns things up to "11" in the core rules and I am really intrigued to see where they are gonna go with the power scaling on opponents in future adventures. Our PCs have played through 7 years of game time, which is WAY more than we ever got through without skipping large chunks in 'training' in RQ3. These characters are already WAY stronger even out the gate than a lot of our graveyard of Would-be Rune-Lords from way back in RQ3.

Yep!

Firstly, more skill points, especially from the Cult skills bit. The 4x25 = 5x10 means 150 Freebie spends, which IIRC, was the equivalent of "veteran" in RQ2/3. And getting 25/30% in main skills, IIRC, is a little higher than previous. Secondly, slightly more Spirit Magic spells at CharGen. And, thirdly, 3 free Rune Points... Also, IIRC, slightly better gear (especially with the "Family Heirlooms" bit).

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7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

A) I don't see any logical reason for the Spell Barrage & Multispell to be a multiple effect, rather than an additive. Ie, both just allow an extra spell to be cast at the same time -ie, they do the same thing. Therefore, at best, Spell Barrage 1 combined with Multispell 1 should allow the Shaman to cast 3 (and only 3) spells for every casting of a spell... not 4. SB/MS 2 adds another spell, not multiplies the lot by 2...

Some people seem to approach it from a purely mechanical point of view - the two game mechanics are different, therefore they cannot be combined as if they were the same. But if you approach it from a Gloranthan point of view, they aren't necessarily different, they might just be two different ways of modelling the same thing. We don't know that, though, it relies on making an assumption. This, I think, is really down to what is more fun for your group. If you want to go gonzo, then great. I certainly have done sometimes, it depends on what I or we want out of a particular game.

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8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

A) I don't see any logical reason for the Spell Barrage & Multispell to be a multiple effect, rather than an additive. Ie, both just allow an extra spell to be cast at the same time -ie, they do the same thing. Therefore, at best, Spell Barrage 1 combined with Multispell 1 should allow the Shaman to cast 3 (and only 3) spells for every casting of a spell... not 4. SB/MS 2 adds another spell, not multiplies the lot by 2...

Yeah, I agree. The only thing that Spell Barrage lacks that Multispell has is the interaction with Disruption... A character with 2 SB and MS2 could maybe throw 2 3d3 Disruptions for 6 mp, instead of the usual 1 you'd get via MS. Otherwise I don't see them multiplying.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

E) As soon as the enemies see those guys charging (especially the decked out Humakti - probably blowing (see the related thread 😛 ), Dispel Magic will be flying!

My question, beyond Dispel Magic, what do the players do when they encounter a group of characters of equivalent power? How do they resist a hit doing 40-50 damage in one go? 

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5 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

My question, beyond Dispel Magic, what do the players do when they encounter a group of characters of equivalent power? How do they resist a hit doing 40-50 damage in one go? 

Avoid or be amputated/killed. If you are a rune lord, use Divine Intervention. If you are a heroquester knowing the backdoor out of Hell ending up dead, return some time later, probably in a new body.

Heroform before entering a fight at these stakes. If you are able to take on a stature equivalent of your opponent, you will be able to take such a hit while in that form. Unfortunately, the rules for such heroforming (along the lines of Greg's story "Morden Defends the Camp") have not been published yet for RQG. Already Hrestol's Saga talks about entering the divine realm and becoming like unto a deity.

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18 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

My question, beyond Dispel Magic, what do the players do when they encounter a group of characters of equivalent power? How do they resist a hit doing 40-50 damage in one go? 

In RQG, I don't know: I've never been part of a group with such powerful characters.

In RQIII, most of the time, they discover the other group is as powerful when somebody draw a weapon. Power level is not tattooed on the face, even if there are hints (iron weapon, for ex.). When a high power level is mutually discovered, most of the time, nothing occurred, because each group was gauging the level of the other, trying to guess the level of protection. This was a time for speakers, and one of our players (a Yelmalio Rune lord/Issaries acolyte) was at his best in such situations.

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14 minutes ago, Kloster said:

In RQG, I don't know: I've never been part of a group with such powerful characters.

In RQIII, most of the time, they discover the other group is as powerful when somebody draw a weapon. Power level is not tattooed on the face, even if there are hints (iron weapon, for ex.). When a high power level is mutually discovered, most of the time, nothing occurred, because each group was gauging the level of the other, trying to guess the level of protection. This was a time for speakers, and one of our players (a Yelmalio Rune lord/Issaries acolyte) was at his best in such situations.

Meh, I would expect such great heroes would be known by their deeds already.

But to a degree, power level is tattooed on a character since magical bling can raise your charisma, lots of obvious magical doo-dads and power items do give a 'tell' of a character's potential danger level. And if the characters are running around killing all the Lunars in the area, eventually they are going to send bigger guns after them. Yes of course social skills can help get you out of a pinch, but sometimes the swords come out. If your default power level is so high, I would expect opposition of similar or greater levels to occasionally come your way. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Avoid or be amputated/killed. If you are a rune lord, use Divine Intervention. If you are a heroquester knowing the backdoor out of Hell ending up dead, return some time later, probably in a new body.

That's a pretty costly means of dealing with an average hit from an equivalent opponent!

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Heroform before entering a fight at these stakes. If you are able to take on a stature equivalent of your opponent, you will be able to take such a hit while in that form. Unfortunately, the rules for such heroforming (along the lines of Greg's story "Morden Defends the Camp") have not been published yet for RQG. Already Hrestol's Saga talks about entering the divine realm and becoming like unto a deity.

I vaguely know what you are talking about (heroforming-taking on the aspects of a hero?), but I don't know anything about Morden defends the camp or the Hrestol Saga. But I'm guessing they are even more examples of narrative characters accomplishing things that are impossible to PCs to pull off?

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40 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

My question, beyond Dispel Magic, what do the players do when they encounter a group of characters of equivalent power? How do they resist a hit doing 40-50 damage in one go?

Earth Shield if you got it. Pricy at 3RP, but infinite AP for the shield parries. Also dodging, but if they special or crit you're likely in trouble fast. But yeah, don't wanna be taking that damage and I don't think there's an equivalently-strong protection you can set up in advance, 

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4 minutes ago, Crel said:

Earth Shield if you got it. Pricy at 3RP, but infinite AP for the shield parries. Also dodging, but if they special or crit you're likely in trouble fast. But yeah, don't wanna be taking that damage and I don't think there's an equivalently-strong protection you can set up in advance, 

Ah yeah, forgot about that spell.

Definitely a flaw in BRP that offense outpaces defense so quickly.

Do your players every do strengthening enchantments on themselves?

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9 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Meh, I would expect such great heroes would be known by their deeds already.

But to a degree, power level is tattooed on a character since magical bling can raise your charisma, lots of obvious magical doo-dads and power items do give a 'tell' of a character's potential danger level. And if the characters are running around killing all the Lunars in the area, eventually they are going to send bigger guns after them. Yes of course social skills can help get you out of a pinch, but sometimes the swords come out. If your default power level is so high, I would expect opposition of similar or greater levels to occasionally come your way. 

 

This is what Reputation is for. But in RQIII, no Reputation.

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1 minute ago, Tywyll said:

Do your players every do strengthening enchantments on themselves?

In RQIII, yes, but beware to the Criticals that ignore armor. That's why we tended to put the enchantments on the shields themselves: You always substracted the AP of the shield to the damage done.

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