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Egregious munchkinnery!


PhilHibbs

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Just now, Kloster said:

This is what Reputation is for. But in RQIII, no Reputation.

I wouldn't have done it as a mechanic, I'd have just dropped hints or roleplaying clues, same way I might drop hints that a chest is trapped in a dungeon or whatever but ymmv. 

PCs relaxing in an Inn when they overhear, "The Black Fangs are in town! Those guys are unbeatable. I heard they killed a dragon before it even had time to take a breath!" or whatever. It wouldn't always be appropriate, but Strangers in Prax gave a good example of how to react/be aware that someone extremely powerful had just showed up in town.

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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

In RQIII, yes, but beware to the Criticals that ignore armor. That's why we tended to put the enchantments on the shields themselves: You always substracted the AP of the shield to the damage done.

I think Soltakss had the right idea, keep pumping it into general HP (which spreads to limbs). Better to have the buffer internally then rely on weak, weak armor!

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15 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

If your default power level is so high, I would expect opposition of similar or greater levels to occasionally come your way. 

Going back in the discussion, of course, here, you are right: If you and your buddy are powerful and show it, the small fry will go in hiding and bigger opposition will show up.

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14 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Definitely a flaw in BRP that offense outpaces defense so quickly.

Do your players every do strengthening enchantments on themselves?

Well, my players haven't reached this point yet, not the normal hit for 30+. And there's no strengthening enchantments in RQG (yet), nor have they gotten to doing enchantments in general. But I doubt such enchantments could keep up with the above-described Humakti.

IIRC, the generally best AP you could get should be something like: Large Shield (16) + iron plate armor (9) + Protection (let's say a RL with 21 CHA, so Protection 21 would be possible, albeit unlikely in an actual game) + Shield (CHA 21=RP, x2=42AP) = 67AP. I don't know of any other published modifiers which would stack--and it should be noted that this combination both requires finding a crazy big Protection, and reaching maximum human RP and spending all of that on a 15 minute spell. So entirely infeasible for actual play, whereas Hresht's examples are from actual play.

Maybe a solution would be to introduce a Rune spell which adjusts the dodge matrix--successes can dodge specials, etc.--or a "Trueshield" spell to double a shield's AP. I guess Trueshield for 1, or Earth Shield for 3?

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51 minutes ago, Crel said:

Well, my players haven't reached this point yet, not the normal hit for 30+. And there's no strengthening enchantments in RQG (yet), nor have they gotten to doing enchantments in general. But I doubt such enchantments could keep up with the above-described Humakti.

I'm happy to pull them from earlier editions. I don't think there is any reason not to.

51 minutes ago, Crel said:

IIRC, the generally best AP you could get should be something like: Large Shield (16) + iron plate armor (9) + Protection (let's say a RL with 21 CHA, so Protection 21 would be possible, albeit unlikely in an actual game) + Shield (CHA 21=RP, x2=42AP) = 67AP. I don't know of any other published modifiers which would stack--and it should be noted that this combination both requires finding a crazy big Protection, and reaching maximum human RP and spending all of that on a 15 minute spell. So entirely infeasible for actual play, whereas Hresht's examples are from actual play.

Don't forget your leather padding for 1 or 2 extra points! But yeah, that sounds about right (actually wait, you missed something-16+9+2+21+42=90ap). Wait, does boar fat stack with armor?

So, constant high points dismiss magic are really the only possible way to combat this sort of thing. That or allowing magical natural armor boosts like from the Rainbow Mounds to be fairly common?

51 minutes ago, Crel said:

Maybe a solution would be to introduce a Rune spell which adjusts the dodge matrix--successes can dodge specials, etc.--or a "Trueshield" spell to double a shield's AP. I guess Trueshield for 1, or Earth Shield for 3?

Oh, I like Trueshield! That's a good idea. 

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2 hours ago, Crel said:

IIRC, the generally best AP you could get should be something like: Large Shield (16) + iron plate armor (9) + Protection (let's say a RL with 21 CHA, so Protection 21 would be possible, albeit unlikely in an actual game) + Shield (CHA 21=RP, x2=42AP) = 67AP. I don't know of any other published modifiers which would stack--and it should be noted that this combination both requires finding a crazy big Protection, and reaching maximum human RP and spending all of that on a 15 minute spell. So entirely infeasible for actual play, whereas Hresht's examples are from actual play.

High-powered Enhancing Crystal (I'd allow it to double up to its value). Normal is 1D8, but higher is possible (Roll an 02 ...). Just basically, that could give you an extra 14 points to the Protection.

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3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

My question, beyond Dispel Magic, what do the players do when they encounter a group of characters of equivalent power? How do they resist a hit doing 40-50 damage in one go? 

Befuddle :D

Seriously, if you're in a game, and your fellow Humakti PC pulls out all stops - but gets stopped by that tiny-winy little 2 point spell - you'd laugh your arse off! 😛

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3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

That's a pretty costly means of dealing with an average hit from an equivalent opponent!

First of all, have a supporter multispell Dampen Damage. That should take normal damage down into the low twenties. Even that is more than you would want to parry with enchanted dwarven Iron Shields and dwarven Iron Plate (or chain) and five or six points of Shield, so dodge instead. Use Shimmer 12 or something like that. Neutralize Damage will give you at least a second chance to avoid damage, however low it may be.

Don't let them close on you, have them deal with two or three whirlvishes, salamanders or similar each. Earth elementals from below, Steal Breath...

Use illusions or phantoms of yourself synchronized to yourself - keep them intersecting with your body until you are real close, then separate.

Heal the opposing Humakti. That is bound to break one of his geases.

Get Draconic Prehealing.

In short - take away their advantage by any means you can imagine, avoid being hit. Don't get into melees. Send in the trollkin (Battle of the Somme style).

A fair fight in a Champion's Battle means that you have a 50% chance for your demise. A Gloranthan warrior would find these odds acceptable.

 

Once the game gets to damages in the twenties I probably would add a rule that attacking weapons have a maximum damage they can deal without taking the excess damage themselves in addition to the target. True Weapon could increase that value by the maximally added damage. And these are bronze implements...

 

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I vaguely know what you are talking about (heroforming-taking on the aspects of a hero?), but I don't know anything about Morden defends the camp or the Hrestol Saga.

Morden has been published: https://www.glorantha.com/docs/morden-defends-the-camp/

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

But I'm guessing they are even more examples of narrative characters accomplishing things that are impossible to PCs to pull off?

It is playing the champions battle between heroquesters, yes.

Hrestol's Saga is a rather ancient unpublished story, and has the knights errant questing into increasingly more magical lands, interacting with guides and temptations, occasionally proving themselves in preliminary deeds.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

... Wait, does boar fat stack with armor?

... 

No.

 

 

 

It just helps you squeeze in, when you've feasted too much.

 

Edited by g33k
emphasis
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C'es ne pas un .sig

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3 hours ago, Crel said:

IIRC, the generally best AP you could get should be something like: Large Shield (16) + iron plate armor (9) + Protection (let's say a RL with 21 CHA, so Protection 21 would be possible, albeit unlikely in an actual game) + Shield (CHA 21=RP, x2=42AP) = 67AP. I don't know of any other published modifiers which would stack--and it should be noted that this combination both requires finding a crazy big Protection, and reaching maximum human RP and spending all of that on a 15 minute spell. So entirely infeasible for actual play, whereas Hresht's examples are from actual play.

 

Iron large shield 24 ap, 

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

First of all, have a supporter multispell Dampen Damage.

No multispell in RQG. And, there's a decent chance the cast speed will be too slow. 1 Round + 2SR/MP. Further, it only minimizes the weapon damage, not "bonuses for special successes or magical or damage bonuses" (RQG 394). So the Truesword damage, the Boon of Kargan Tor, and the opponent's mundane damage bonus would be unaffected.

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Even that is more than you would want to parry with enchanted dwarven Iron Shields and dwarven Iron Plate (or chain) ... Use illusions or phantoms of yourself synchronized to yourself - keep them intersecting with your body until you are real close, then separate. ... Get Draconic Prehealing.

Fairly sure these are all undeveloped enough in the current rules to not be applicable in a rules minmax discussion (though grognard-sourced games will of course Vary). Notably sorcery's illusions require constant focus to move, and Rune illusions only move at MOV 1 per RP of Illusory Motion.

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Wait, does boar fat stack with armor?

Rhino Fat only appears on the Family Heirlooms table (p.88) and thus has no market cost, but adds 1 AP and I believe does stack with any other AP sources. Also, just checked Bless Woad, and you can't wear physical armor during it (although it appears to stack with other spells. So Woad 21 + Protection 21 + Shield 21 is on the table).

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Iron large shield 24 ap,

However, shields aren't made of metal according to RQG 218; they're only made of Hide, Wicker, and Wood. So, RAW, a Large Shield with half-again AP can't exist. (That being said off the rules-as-written argument I think you do have a point--get enough magical strength going on and you can probably carry a mundane shield which is way more sturdy than what's present in the rules.)

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4 minutes ago, Crel said:

However, shields aren't made of metal according to RQG 218; they're only made of Hide, Wicker, and Wood. So, RAW, a Large Shield with half-again AP can't exist. (That being said off the rules-as-written argument I think you do have a point--get enough magical strength going on and you can probably carry a mundane shield which is way more sturdy than what's present in the rules.)

we are talking egregious munchkinerry here, right? :)

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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2 minutes ago, Crel said:

Yes, but I'm of the belief that we must be as RAW as possible in munchkinnery--that way those nasty no-fun GMs can't naysay us! :P

and I am coming at it as a nasty GM looking for ways to foil players:)

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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Also, while Befuddle can be stopped for a round with some Countermagic or a already-present Shield spell, another option might be to toss a spirit at the oncoming Humatki murderbot and then cast Mobility and just flee until the spirit gets him, or until he has to stop and cast Spirit Block (if he's got any RP left...).

If we're talking shamans and Rune masters, I'm sure at that point a shaman of Daka Fal probably knows at least one or two beefy, friendly ancestors to sic on warriors (in addition to his fetch and what he's got bound and present).

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9 hours ago, Crel said:

Also, while Befuddle can be stopped for a round with some Countermagic or a already-present Shield spell, another option might be to toss a spirit at the oncoming Humatki murderbot and then cast Mobility and just flee until the spirit gets him, or until he has to stop and cast Spirit Block (if he's got any RP left...).

If we're talking shamans and Rune masters, I'm sure at that point a shaman of Daka Fal probably knows at least one or two beefy, friendly ancestors to sic on warriors (in addition to his fetch and what he's got bound and present).

Well, I was only going by what was presented - and Shield/Countermagic wasn't presented :)

And, I was about to go to the Spirit Combat line of thinking...

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13 hours ago, Crel said:

Maybe a solution would be to introduce a Rune spell which adjusts the dodge matrix--successes can dodge specials, etc.--or a "Trueshield" spell to double a shield's AP. I guess Trueshield for 1, or Earth Shield for 3?

That would be Earth Shield... and it gives an infinite number of AP to the shield. (but, for some odd reason, no +% to parry  :( )

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There are legitimate weaknesses that we are aware of. 

 

The shaman has a hearty suite of Abilities already. Spell Barrage 3, Spell Extension 5, Self Rez 1 week, Max POW 26, Power Within 4, and I think some others I am forgetting, not my PC. He currently has 15-16 POW and a 13 Fetch, so he isn't AMAZING or anything but, he has been a phenomenal asset. Power Within makes him the Ultimate Spirit Magic Swiss Army Knife. Daka Fal Shaman has actually been one of the biggest secrets to the success of the party on so many fronts. He can fight ghosts pretty damn good. 

 

Not to mention in the RAW as far as I can tell there is literally no reason a Humakti being attacked by a Spiti in spirit combat couldn't fight it with his iron sword with truesword and basically annihilate it instantly.

Once a corporeal being is engaged in spirit combat, they may not attempt any skill or engage in physical melee combat with a separate physical melee target without first succeeding at an intelligence check (normally INT×5, but the gamemaster may adjust that up or down, as desired). They may choose to attack the spirit attacking them using enchanted weapons (see below) without succeeding at a concentration check. 

 

Attacking with Weapons  and Spells

Corporeal entities may attack a spirit that is engaged in spirit combat with enchanted weapons and spells. The physical attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill. However, the magic point damage from physical weapons is based on its magical nature:

. Temporary damage boosts from Rune magic (such as True Weapon) do harm spirits but only to the amount of extra damage caused by the spell. For example, True Sword would do 1D8+1 if cast on a broadsword.

. Enchanted weapons (such as enchanted iron or other Rune metals) do normal damage, but gain no damage bonus from STR+SIZ. . Offensive damage-causing spells (such as Disruption or Lightning) can harm spirits.

. Temporary damage boosts from spirit magic (such as Bladesharp, Fireblade, etc.) do not harm most spirits, nor do unenchanted Rune metal weapons (such as unenchanted iron).
 

So, the Humakti PC can still do 4d8 (18 average) damage to a spirit attacking him in spirit combat. There may be some debate over whether or not he gets the +2d6 for the 4 year long Boon of Kargan Tor on the Great Sword.

Edited by HreshtIronBorne
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4 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Not to mention in the RAW as far as I can tell there is literally no reason a Humakti being attacked by a Spiti in spirit combat couldn't fight it with his iron sword with truesword and basically annihilate it instantly. 

I don't see it anywhere in the rules that a spirit or ghost has something that can be hit even with their Visibility on, and why should Truesword change that?. Spirits don't have a special vulnerability to iron, they just get slowed in their magic exchange when exposed to the unenchanted stuff.

Not sure about Sever Spirit either. The spirit has no body to be severed from.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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