Egregious munchkinnery!

[davecake]

On 5/26/2019 at 9:50 PM, Joerg said:

But then Jar-eel will probably have gifts that raised those maxima, too, or give her an effective multiplier to some of those characteristics.

Yes. Jar-Eel wasn’t a superhero at birth, just boosted far enough along the path that she was a minor hero before she was a teenager. My point is more that sometimes, things that look like muchkinnery are things that real Gloranthan might actually do - because sometimes real Gloranthans are obsessed with exploiting magic for power too. 

[Tywyll]

Right now in my campaign we are actually playing with that concept and genetic born "super-heroes". Lots of 21's in their stats. They definitely have a huge edge over 'mundane'! 

As a parent, it is definitely something I would have indulged in for my own kid if I could have, so I see no reason that chiefs and kings wouldn't do the same. 

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Right now in my campaign we are actually playing with that concept and genetic born "super-heroes". Lots of 21's in their stats. They definitely have a huge edge over 'mundane'! 

As a parent, it is definitely something I would have indulged in for my own kid if I could have, so I see no reason that chiefs and kings wouldn't do the same. 

How did you choose to implement that?

Did the PCs have to pay for it somehow? Or did you just give it to them all for free?

[Kloster]

I think I have found another case: In RQIII, characters that were shamans were forbidden to become rune priest or lords, or sorcerors. Rune priest were forbidden to become shaman except for a few specific cults were they had to become shamans, and were forbidden to become sorcerors. Sorcerors were forbidden to become shamans, and could not have a rank above initiate in most cults.

It seems such restrictions are now lifted (or I couldn't find them). Jeff gave us a short (and incomplete) list of cults that accept sorcery, but in the rules, it seems nothing prevents a shaman to become priest of a theist cult, or an unaligned sorceror.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

I think I have found another case: In RQIII, characters that were shamans were forbidden to become rune priest or lords, or sorcerors. Rune priest were forbidden to become shaman except for a few specific cults were they had to become shamans, and were forbidden to become sorcerors. Sorcerors were forbidden to become shamans, and could not have a rank above initiate in most cults.

It seems such restrictions are now lifted (or I couldn't find them). Jeff gave us a short (and incomplete) list of cults that accept sorcery, but in the rules, it seems nothing prevents a shaman to become priest of a theist cult, or an unaligned sorceror.

I think I recall a prior thread noting the possibility (at least in theory) for mixing Rune-Theism / Sorcery / Shamanism (any 2, or all 3!) in one character..

I would need to re-visit the rules, but don't think that's overly munchkinous... Sorcerors' use of Spirit Magic detracts from their Sorcery, and I'd have to take a long, hard, and highly-suspicious look at each Shamanic Ability before I said "sure, yeah, that works for Sorcerors too!"  

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

I think I recall a prior thread noting the possibility (at least in theory) for mixing Rune-Theism / Sorcery / Shamanism (any 2, or all 3!) in one character..

I would need to re-visit the rules, but don't think that's overly munchkinous... Sorcerors' use of Spirit Magic detracts from their Sorcery, and I'd have to take a long, hard, and highly-suspicious look at each Shamanic Ability before I said "sure, yeah, that works for Sorcerors too!"  

I think the shamanic abilities don't affect the sorcery part, but you can store the spirit spells in the fetch expanded charisma and expanded presence, keeping all INT free.

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

I think the shamanic abilities don't affect the sorcery part, but you can store the spirit spells in the fetch expanded charisma and expanded presence, keeping all INT free.

I was going to throw that up as a question... But, I suppose it's not any different to a spirit holding the spell, and the fetch holding the spirit. But, maybe not??? But then, such spells are not CHA-based, rather than INT- based, and IIRC, Fetches used to have INT, not CHA. Now, Sorcerers need both CHA and INT to store their spirit magic (unfair!)

So, I'm confused 😛

However, I tend to agree that Shamanic Abilities that relate to spells shouldn't be for sorcery (eg, Extension) or Spell Barrage. As per the HQ Abilities thread, I can see an ability similar to Expanded Presence but for INT being given by a powerful being (now, would that affect Free-INT directly? Or only as a placeholder?)

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, Kloster said:

I think I have found another case: In RQIII, characters that were shamans were forbidden to become rune priest or lords, or sorcerors. Rune priest were forbidden to become shaman except for a few specific cults were they had to become shamans, and were forbidden to become sorcerors. Sorcerors were forbidden to become shamans, and could not have a rank above initiate in most cults.

It seems such restrictions are now lifted (or I couldn't find them). Jeff gave us a short (and incomplete) list of cults that accept sorcery, but in the rules, it seems nothing prevents a shaman to become priest of a theist cult, or an unaligned sorceror.

I suspect there will be greater clarifications in the future... and, just as a rule is presented, we'll see numerous counter-examples to go with it!

[Tywyll]

On 5/29/2019 at 5:03 AM, Shiningbrow said:

How did you choose to implement that?

Did the PCs have to pay for it somehow? Or did you just give it to them all for free?

Random...kept it old school. They each gained 1d6+4 bonus points. Everyone rolled 8 or 9 except for one guy who rolled 10. I decided since he obviously benefitted from the most powerful casting, he was the Crown Prince. 

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Random...kept it old school. They each gained 1d6+4 bonus points. Everyone rolled 8 or 9 except for one guy who rolled 10. I decided since he obviously benefitted from the most powerful casting, he was the Crown Prince. 

I'm curious also - for you recall where they prioritised?

[Imryn]

I have been reading through the new rules and when I saw that Humakt had no associate cults i started to feel a bit sad. I have a nostalgic fondness for Humakti meat shields, and it looked as if they were a bit gimped in the new rules. Then I noticed that a Humakti RL has no time commitment, just the 90% tithe. The way I read this is that the Humakti can become an Orlanthi initiate (friendly cult) and gain access to all Orlanthi rune magic, and more importantly all of Orlanths associated cults.

Only having the potential to get one 21 pt rp pool (plus allied spirit) seemed to me to be a really unpleasant limit to character development; however with Orlanth in the mix the Humakti can get 10 or more 21 pt rp pools (same as most other cults). The Humakti would have to pretty careful about his rune affinities but it looks doable.

The biggest problem is the tithe - Humakti RL 90%, Orlanthi Initiate 10%. Basically I have to give everything I get to one temple or the other and this gives the GM a really easy way to strip me of anything he thinks is too powerful, or just to mess with me for fun.

Is this really the way its supposed to work or am I mistaken?

I have also been looking at the rules for enchanting, and it looks like you can make some really powerful items, but then I saw that they have left the armoring enchantment out of these rules. Does anyone know if that's deliberate or an oversight? I can understand if it is deliberate, as a way to limit enchanting because nobody is going to sacrifice the amount of POW you would need to make a really powerful item if it can be easily broken (or just have the GM take it off me in the case above).

[Bill the barbarian]

27 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Is this really the way its supposed to work or am I mistaken?

 

If that is the rules as intended it is new with RQ G. The reason in past times that Humakt had no associated cults was because of his mastery of death. None of the other gods understand the incredible responsibly and honour that goes with this "understanding" To initiate to the cult used to be a cutting of ties with clan, family, and tribe so that they could deal holy death for the cult if needed without bringing kin and law/outlaw into it. Much has changed, but this changing... seems drastic.

Cheers

Edited May 31, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Imryn said:

The biggest problem is the tithe - Humakti RL 90%, Orlanthi Initiate 10%. Basically I have to give everything I get to one temple or the other and this gives the GM a really easy way to strip me of anything he thinks is too powerful, or just to mess with me for fun.

Is this really the way its supposed to work or am I mistaken?

First, no - No rule should be assumed as a means of minimising player fun.  If a GM interprets it that way, you may be playing with the wrong people.  And a GM shouldn't be dropping loot boxes that are too powerful for players to grab in the first place.

Second, I'd assume this is an example of a compound fee, though your temple leaders may see it differently.  Humakt is your primary devotion - to his temple goes 90% of your accumulated wealth.  Orlanth is of secondary importance, though still prominent in your community, and to his temple goes 10% of what's left after Humakt's take.  Your player character is left with 9% for personal support...unless the temple of Orlanth gets greedy and decides to make the argument for the full 10% of everything.  Then your community has a dispute and potential inter-temple rivalry on their hands.

Bear in mind, it's not in the temples' best interest to totally impoverish their flock, especially their heroes.  Humakt may claim 90% of your wealth, but the temple may also bestow gifts upon your character in support of your adventures.  Why lock a magic sword away in a vault when one of their heroes can take it out in the field and put it to use against the undead?

!i!

Edited May 31, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Imryn]

Thanks for the explanation. That is a much kinder way of viewing it than i had. to be clear, i'm not with a group at the moment, i'm coming back to RQ after a very long absence and just trying to get my head around the new rules.

I haven't actually played the game since RQ2 was out

[Ian Absentia]

Yeah, I didn't mean to seem accusatory.  Take that as the general, communal "You" and not a personal "you".

The production values behind RQG have gone to some length to promote Maximum Gaming Fun and put to rest the old school penalty phase of adventuring where the GM/PC divide is assumed to be a hostile and adversarial relationship.

"How can we both have fun with this game?"

!i!

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Imryn said:

Is this really the way its supposed to work or am I mistaken?

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If that is the rules as intended it is new with RQ G. The reason in past times that Humakt had no associated cults was because of his mastery of death. None of the other gods understand the incredible responsibly and honour that goes with this "understanding" To initiate to the cult used to be a cutting of ties with clan, family, and tribe so that they could deal holy death for the cult if needed without bringing kin and law/outlaw into it. Much has changed, but this changing... seems drastic.

My gut says that we won't know for certain until we've got Gods & Goddesses, unless a dev steps down from the golden desk and informs us. My take is that to be a member of multiple cults, all cults involved must see one another as "Associated." Naturally, YGMV. I remember conversations where others believed all cults had to be "Friendly." As I recall it, I don't believe RQG's text provides an authoritative solution to this problem.

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

My gut says that we won't know for certain until we've got Gods & Goddesses, unless a dev steps down from the golden desk and informs us. My take is that to be a member of multiple cults, all cults involved must see one another as "Associated." Naturally, YGMV. I remember conversations where others believed all cults had to be "Friendly." As I recall it, I don't believe RQG's text provides an authoritative solution to this problem.

Been looking through the rules to see what they are as written. All I can find is in contradiction to both our guts. As you say, we might have to wait for GaGoG for details. Then I went back in time, and checked my old stuff and I can not find a mention of Humakti not being able to join other cults. Maybe this is where one can get one's Munchkin on, egregiously!

Membership in Multiple Cults

It is possible for an adventurer to be an initiate of more than one cult. They must pass the appropriate tests, and this always requires that the cults be compatible. (my emphasis) They must also tithe to each temple, and perform properly and completely all duties and responsibilities to each temple.

page 275 RQ RiG

[Imryn]

That's what I was going on as well. It all hinges on what they mean when they say "compatible". I translated that to mean friendly or associated, but that might just be me being overly optimistic.

Without the ability to gain multiple rp pools Humakti are going to be pretty gimped when it comes to high end play, so I hope I am right.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Imryn said:

Without the ability to gain multiple rp pools Humakti are going to be pretty gimped when it comes to high end play, so I hope I am right.

Well, gimped in some ways (not being able to come back from the dead has always been a big one), Around here one can find a lot of words devoted to just how powerful Humakti are as well.

[Imryn]

Maybe gimped is a bit too strong a word, but I get the feeling from reading the rules (and reading here) that magic is going to dominate high end play, and not having a large pool of rp to draw on will be very disadvantageous.

If I am right the munchkin option for meat shielding will probably be another cult without a hard rp limit.

I always thought the no returning from the dead was a bit of a non event - DI allows you to avoid the death blow (and killing the other guy first helps as well)

Edited May 31, 2019 by Imryn

[Bill the barbarian]

12 minutes ago, Imryn said:

DI allows you to avoid the death blow (and killing the other guy first helps as well)

Yeah, both are effective.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Then I went back in time, and checked my old stuff and I can not find a mention of Humakti not being able to join other cults.

Got it, Its a ten year old mention in Sartar Kingdom of Heroes for HeroQuest and definitely Heortling-centric so whether it carries forward to GaGoG only time will tell. Don't see any reason one can not do it RAW in the RQ G core rules. Role=playing wise I could think of reason or two.

The Severing 
Kinship is an essential part of Orlanthi culture and religion. To be without kin is to be dead. Nonetheless, some deities’ actions are contrary to Orlanth’s laws. They include Babeester Gor, Eurmal, Humakt, Urox, and sometimes others. Those deities have dispensation to perform their unspeakable actions without accruing harm to themselves. To protect society from these acts, these cults have rites that sunder a person’s normal social and divine bonds. After this severance, their kin are safe from reprisal for their criminal actions. The worshipper’s kinsmen are not responsible in any way, and no divine wrath accrues to their community for any action the worshipper takes, whether cult sanctioned or not. Of course, if they commit crimes against Orlanth’s laws that their god does not sanction, they may bring down divine wrath onto their temple, congregation, or warband. 
A person who joins Humakt is Severed from the Living and truly erases his former relationships. As such, he does not receive anything that would normally come to him from his kin or community. Without kinship, a Humakti is not legally a member of a clan or bloodline. His former kin are not responsible for his crimes, nor can he collect wergild for crimes done to him. He does not help pay clan fines, nor does he collect anything when his bloodline receives gifts. Anyone who has a quarrel with a Humakti must deal with him directly, without the official support of Orlanthi law. 
The worshipper also cuts contact with other gods, leaving Humakt as their sole source of magic, although they must still participate in community worship and play Humakt’s role. 
page 171 S KoH

[Imryn]

Thanks for looking that up, but its not very hopeful for my poor old Humakti.

It's also a pretty awesome bit of fluff for role playing. I had already done something like this for the character I created - I took the event where he could kill a clan member during character creation and changed it to a kinsman, and as a result his tribe and clan cast him out

Edited May 31, 2019 by Imryn

[jajagappa]

44 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Thanks for looking that up, but its not very hopeful for my poor old Humakti.

Bear in mind that your Humakti is favored by Death. He gets gifts (and geases) that almost no one else does - those go beyond just the build up of rune points (and these can go beyond the basic list) - and the Rune Lord can take as many gifts as they wish. His cult can work and give him IRON weapons and armor - he is a machine of death. He has the ability to Sense Assassins - an unusual skill that requires no use of magic or Rune points. He is the only god that provides a reusable Sever Spirit.

Do not pity the Humakti. Pity those that fall beneath his blade and magics.

Edited May 31, 2019 by jajagappa

[Joerg]

54 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Thanks for looking that up, but its not very hopeful for my poor old Humakti.

It's also a pretty awesome bit of fluff for role playing. I had already done something like this for the character I created - I took the event where he could kill a clan member during character creation and changed it to a kinsman, and as a result his tribe and clan cast him out

Also note that for a Sword of Humakt, "my temple" may be synonymous to "my mercenary company", and 90% of the loot is getting re-invested in keeping the company equipped, fed and running. That's money you spend on your behalf.