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Egregious munchkinnery!


PhilHibbs

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6 minutes ago, Joerg said:
1 hour ago, Imryn said:

It's also a pretty awesome bit of fluff for role playing. I had already done something like this for the character I created - I took the event where he could kill a clan member during character creation and changed it to a kinsman, and as a result his tribe and clan cast him out

 

and have the cult of Humakt willing to take him in. 

 

1 hour ago, Imryn said:

Thanks for looking that up, but its not very hopeful for my poor old Humakti.

Looks quite hopeful (at least in the short term) 'cause no matter the RAI the RAW say you can be  a Humakti/orlanthi. The quotation was HeroQuest, not RuneQuest. Gloranthan, Chaosium, but still not RQ. That might change as more rules become available or you might weigh roleplaying vs munchkinnery and say that MGF dictates a Humaki Sword doubling as an initiate of (choose yer poison), now and later —rules be damned. But yeah, it seems the designers intention was to have a Humakt stand alone, only his honour as an ally, proud!

Cheers

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20 hours ago, Imryn said:

Only having the potential to get one 21 pt rp pool (plus allied spirit) seemed to me to be a really unpleasant limit to character development; however with Orlanth in the mix the Humakti can get 10 or more 21 pt rp pools (same as most other cults). The Humakti would have to pretty careful about his rune affinities but it looks doable.

I have re read the rules and this is wrong. If a Humakti joins Orlanth as an initiate he gets access to Orlanthi rune magic and also rune magic from all the associated cults but all the sacrificed POW goes into a single Orlanthi RP pool. So my Humakti would have 2 x 21 pt RP pools (one for Humakt and one for Orlanth).

This is fine; it's the same for all characters, not just Humakt. Unless one of you devious so and so's has a way to be an initiate in more than 2 cults.

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15 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and have the cult of Humakt willing to take him in. 

 

Looks quite hopeful (at least in the short term) 'cause no matter the RAI the RAW say you can be  a Humakti/orlanthi. The quotation was HeroQuest, not RuneQuest. Gloranthan, Chaosium, but still not RQ. That might change as more rules become available or you might weigh roleplaying vs munchkinnery and say that MGF dictates a Humaki Sword doubling as an initiate of (choose yer poison), now and later —rules be damned. But yeah, it seems the designers intention was to have a Humakt stand alone, only his honour as an ally, proud!

Cheers

Damn right. My group never played/read Heroquest, only RQ3/G, so my Orlanthi joined Humakt with no problems whatsoever. 

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9 hours ago, Imryn said:

Unless one of you devious so and so's has a way to be an initiate in more than 2 cults

Sure... Join them! 

I've never seen anything anywhere in RQ that says there's a limit to the number of cults you can join. 

In.fact, I'd suggest it to be the norm.  (Other than the lack of POW required to initiate. Definitely multiple Lay Memberships).

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:26 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

or you might weigh roleplaying vs munchkinnery and say that MGF dictates a Humaki Sword doubling as an initiate of (choose yer poison), now and later —rules be damned. But yeah, it seems the designers intention was to have a Humakt stand alone, only his honour as an ally, proud!

 

A Humakti,  Eurmali broo—ew! the mind boggles (no, literally Boggles)...

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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10 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

A Humakti,  Eurmali broo—ew! the mind boggles (no, literally Boggles)...

Eurmali-Stormbull?

Eurmali-Stormbully-Humakti??? 

(ETA - Eurmali-Stormbully-Humakti-Chalana Arroy... Possibly technically possible, if going pacifist is permitted by those warrior cults... Someone who's seen too much earlier, and turns a new leaf... )

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I would imagine the limits would come from roleplaying and the GM - each cult makes demands on its initiates time and resources and has their own particular objectives. This will have a big impact on the time a character has available for adventuring.

If I was GMing I would enforce the temples demands on any player who was an initiate in more than two or three cults, pulling them in multiple conflicting directions. But that's just me!

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13 hours ago, Imryn said:

I would imagine the limits would come from roleplaying and the GM - each cult makes demands on its initiates time and resources and has their own particular objectives. This will have a big impact on the time a character has available for adventuring.

If I was GMing I would enforce the temples demands on any player who was an initiate in more than two or three cults, pulling them in multiple conflicting directions. But that's just me!

Given the close ties between the cults (local temples) and the communities, there shouldn't really be that much in.the way of conflicting directions. 

But, that's obviously going to depend on which community...

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On 6/2/2019 at 2:21 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Sure... Join them! 

I've never seen anything anywhere in RQ that says there's a limit to the number of cults you can join. 

In.fact, I'd suggest it to be the norm.  (Other than the lack of POW required to initiate. Definitely multiple Lay Memberships).

I don't remember having seen more than 2 cults in an official product, but 2 is quite frequent, whatever the RQ variant, so multiple Lay memberships can be the norm and multiple initiation is at least possible. I also can't remember any rule that limits the number, except the rules that enforce all the strictures and tithing: It is of course not possible to give more than 100% of your time or of your income.

On 6/1/2019 at 5:17 PM, gochie said:

Damn right. My group never played/read Heroquest, only RQ3/G, so my Orlanthi joined Humakt with no problems whatsoever. 

Same for me, and except if something changes in what is published for RQ, I will not change my position.

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On 5/31/2019 at 7:15 PM, Imryn said:

The biggest problem is the tithe - Humakti RL 90%, Orlanthi Initiate 10%. Basically I have to give everything I get to one temple or the other and this gives the GM a really easy way to strip me of anything he thinks is too powerful, or just to mess with me for fun.

Is this really the way its supposed to work or am I mistaken?

The way I play it is that you need to give a proportion of your income to your Cults. If you are an Initiate then you give 10% to your Cults, if you are a Rune Lord then you give 90% to your Cults. The Cults then divide that up accordingly. so, a Troll Death Lord is almost always going to be an Initiate of Kyger Litor, so gives 90% to the Cults, which is then divided into effectively 81% to Zorak Zoran and 9% to Kyger Litor. Similarly, an Elf Light Son gives 90% to his Cults, of which 81% goes to Yelmalio and 9% to Aldrya/High King Elf. All Citizens pof Pavis need to be members of the Cult and many are Initiates, of they also belong to other Cults then they tithe accordingly, so an Initiate of Pavis and Yelmalio would give 10% to Cults, with 5% going to Pavis and 5% to Yelmalio.

A lot of people play it differently. There is a reference to Bolthor Brighteyes, in Cults of Terror, tithing his money to several cults, for example.

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58 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The way I play it is that you need to give a proportion of your income to your Cults. If you are an Initiate then you give 10% to your Cults, if you are a Rune Lord then you give 90% to your Cults. The Cults then divide that up accordingly. so, a Troll Death Lord is almost always going to be an Initiate of Kyger Litor, so gives 90% to the Cults, which is then divided into effectively 81% to Zorak Zoran and 9% to Kyger Litor. Similarly, an Elf Light Son gives 90% to his Cults, of which 81% goes to Yelmalio and 9% to Aldrya/High King Elf. All Citizens pof Pavis need to be members of the Cult and many are Initiates, of they also belong to other Cults then they tithe accordingly, so an Initiate of Pavis and Yelmalio would give 10% to Cults, with 5% going to Pavis and 5% to Yelmalio.

A lot of people play it differently. There is a reference to Bolthor Brighteyes, in Cults of Terror, tithing his money to several cults, for example.

The only information I've found on the subject is RQG p278 and is about God talkers of a cult that also have a rank in another cult: They have to pay 90% to their main cult, and half of the rest (as god talker) to the second. If we extrapolate the same rule to multiple inititation, one has to pay 10% to the 1st cult, then 10% (=9%) of what remains to the second cult, then 10% ... und so weiter.

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I think this is so Egregious that no GM would possibly permit it, buuuut... couldn't you technically get back characteristics lost to sacrificing for RP, shaman abilities, etc. with Restore Health? Relevant text is p.338, "This spell restores characteristic points that have been lost to disease, to the effects of the sorcery spell Tapping, or to other sources" (Emphasis added). Again yes, I don't think there's any chance in the Underworld you could get away with this in an actual game--clearly other sources means external Bad Stuff--but if you're looking to be Extra Egregious, maybe playing an Illumined trickster, seems like a neat way to start an argument :D.

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1 hour ago, Crel said:

I think this is so Egregious that no GM would possibly permit it, buuuut... couldn't you technically get back characteristics lost to sacrificing for RP, shaman abilities, etc. with Restore Health? Relevant text is p.338, "This spell restores characteristic points that have been lost to disease, to the effects of the sorcery spell Tapping, or to other sources" (Emphasis added). Again yes, I don't think there's any chance in the Underworld you could get away with this in an actual game--clearly other sources means external Bad Stuff--but if you're looking to be Extra Egregious, maybe playing an Illumined trickster, seems like a neat way to start an argument :D.

And the winner is .. Crel. I think you've found the most egregious of all. Respect.

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5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Especially when the first use of Restore Health is to get back the POW for the Restore Health... :P

The second would be to get back the POW used for the Rune Points needed for getting Restore Health and all the other Rune spells you need.

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On 6 June 2019 at 12:39 PM, Crel said:

I think this is so Egregious that no GM would possibly permit it, buuuut... couldn't you technically get back characteristics lost to sacrificing for RP, shaman abilities, etc. with Restore Health?

Well, you could claim on your insurance for something you willingly gave away... Good luck with that, try not to get caught...

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So, Spell Trading.

A factor which has come up in my game, which is relevant for munchkinnery, is that Issaries has a minor holy day every week, getting back 1D6 RP. So as an Issaries you've got tons of opportunities to use Spell Trading, even with the spell's caveat that "No cult trades special cult magic lightly;" for example, the "Earth goddesses" and "nomad gods" require a High Priest(ess)'s approval or negotiation (RQG p.340). However, the example on the following page implies to me that there are some cults willing to trade on a fairly leisurely basis, at least among Issaries' associated cults.

Over time, I imagine you could build up quite the storehouse of Heal Wound, Multispell, and maybe Divination toward different cults, in addition to rarer chances at special Rune magic.

Now, if we wanna be extra Egregious, I can see an argument that a Spell stacked with Extension would count as "one use" of a Rune spell. After all, it's all cast on the same SR, at the exact same time. Getting this through trading has the upside that your Rune points aren't locked out during the Extended spell's duration...

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15 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Why not create a spell matrix for extension? One time permanent POW sac for a reusable extension that doesn't lock out RP seems like a good deal to me.

Great idea. I feel like we don't have the grounds to say Yes! or No! on if you can use an external Extension on a spell (although IIRC we do know you can't combo RP from different cults, therefore Extension on one side & Spell on the other is out), but you could certainly build up a Spell + Extension matrix over time, since you don't need to complete an enchantment all at once (p.334-335, in the Matrix Creation Enchantment description).

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25 minutes ago, Imryn said:

Why not create a spell matrix for extension? One time permanent POW sac for a reusable extension that doesn't lock out RP seems like a good deal to me.

I'm not convinced that Extension from one source can be mixed with a rune spell from another. Can you spend your Issaries RP on Extension to extend your Orlanth Shield spell?

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@PhilHibbs Well an extension matrix wouldn't be tied to any one RP pool because it is created with raw POW, and you make a POW check to cast a rune spell from a matrix as well, so there is nothing there that ties the enchanted extension to any particular RP pool or deity.

The description (RQG 335) does say "Once used, the user must take the item back to the proper temple to be recharged with a successful Worship ceremony." but for common rune spells any temple can be the proper temple.

Edited by Imryn
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There is another huge benefit from creating a spell matrix for extension. Anyone can use it. So if your party consists of five players they can each sac a single point of POW to contribute to an extension 5 matrix and then share it around between them.

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45 minutes ago, Imryn said:

@PhilHibbs Well an extension matrix wouldn't be tied to any one RP pool because it is created with raw POW, and you make a POW check to cast a rune spell from a matrix as well, so there is nothing there that ties the enchanted extension to any particular RP pool or deity.

So when casting Shield form your RP and Extension from a matrix, do you roll your Air Rune or your POWx5? This is why I don't think you can mix and match rune point sources.

I suppose the same problem occurs with associate spells anyway - if an Orlanthi wants to cast Charisma with Extension, they have to roll on Fertility or Illusion or Beast for the Charisma spell, but on an Orlanth cult rune for the Extension spell. Personally I would just allow the Extension to be cast with the same rune as the main spell.

Quote

The description (RQG 335) does say "Once used, the user must take the item back to the proper temple to be recharged with a successful Worship ceremony." but for common rune spells any temple can be the proper temple.

I'm not sure about that, I think it has to be the right deity (or an associate, as per RP renewal).

This is all good solid munchkinnery, though!

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43 minutes ago, Imryn said:

The description (RQG 335) does say "Once used, the user must take the item back to the proper temple to be recharged with a successful Worship ceremony." but for common rune spells any temple can be the proper temple.

I feel like the cult from which the enchantment spell was cast is still the cult which the matrix is affiliated with, even for common spells. It wasn't made with amorphous magical energies--it was made with the magic of Orlanth, or Ernalda, or whomever. I think this is highlighted by the sidebar about Heal Wound on p.330, which discusses how the common Rune spells still behave distinctly for each cult.

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14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So when casting Shield form your RP and Extension from a matrix, do you roll your Air Rune or your POWx5? This is why I don't think you can mix and match rune point sources.

I suppose the same problem occurs with associate spells anyway - if an Orlanthi wants to cast Charisma with Extension, they have to roll on Fertility or Illusion or Beast for the Charisma spell, but on an Orlanth cult rune for the Extension spell. Personally I would just allow the Extension to be cast with the same rune as the main spell.

I'm not sure about that, I think it has to be the right deity (or an associate, as per RP renewal).

This is all good solid munchkinnery, though!

You would have to roll POW x 5 to cast the extension and then against your Air rune for the shield, but yes that's it. And you aren't mixing RP sources because the Extension doesn't come from any RP pool. Of course you would have to pass both rolls, and if you failed one then only one spell would cast so you could waste your Extension matrix if the shield failed to cast.

I understand where you are coming from about recharging the matrix at any temple, and as a GM I would probably rule the way you think, but the RAW doesn't support it.  See below

Edited by Imryn
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