Egregious munchkinnery!

[Akhôrahil]

Another fun Extension outcome is Bless Champion - it inherently has a long duration of one day plus one day per stacked Rune Point, but also since it has this long inherent duration, it can't be Extended for longer periods the way Temporal spells can. Having a long duration means that you can't get a really long duration the way you could if it had merely a Temporal duration!

[PhilHibbs]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:29 AM, Kloster said:

I would say a 'Neutralize Magic' 21 can, a 'Neutralize Magic' 42 has a 50% chance and a 'Neutralize Magic' 84 automatically removes the shield 21.

That's not how the resistance table works, 30 points has a 95% chance of neutralising 21.

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

IIRC old versions of Extension were +15min per point (I never played RQ2, trying to remember RQ3).

I just checked RQ2 and was shocked to see that Extension 1/2/3 (they were separate spells back then) were not extending Rune magic -- they were extending battle magic! (which we now know as spirit magic). The extension scale was changed slightly from 1 hour/6 hours/1 week to 1 hour/1 day/1 week/1 season/1 year.

Funnily enough, although the extension time scale was mostly taken from RQ2, the text of the spell (including the fact that it affects divine/Rune magic instead of battle/spirit magic) was taken almost verbatim from RQ3 to RQG. The RQ3 time scale doubled duration every point.

Edited December 23, 2019 by lordabdul

[Pentallion]

13 hours ago, Crel said:

@Akhôrahil, @HreshtIronBorne: if we're in rules-lawyer territory, per @Jason Durall's errata answers on the Q&A spells with the "nonstackable" tag cannot be Extended. Notable spells including this are Peace, Charisma, Bear's Strength, Sword Trance, Truesword, and Earth Shield, though this includes others as well.

(FWIW I'm not sure I'll be keeping with that ruling myself, and I suspect it's an example of imprecise definitions as Akhorahil has complained of, rather than an intended result. I've not yet found an example of actual published text in the core where a "nonstackable" spell was Extended.)

Thanks, I missed that errata.  That fixes the extended Sword Trance munchkinnery.

[Pentallion]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This must be just an error, surely? 

No, it's not.  If it were simply stackable, being a 3 pt spell, it would cost 3 additional rune points to teleport a second person.  The spell description supercedes that, saying it only costs 1 additional ruen point to teleport additional person.  Therefore, it would make no sense (and given munchkinnery, potentially could be degenerately broken - I don't know how, but one never does until the munchkins get a hold of it) for Teleport to be stackable.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, Pentallion said:

No, it's not.  If it were simply stackable, being a 3 pt spell, it would cost 3 additional rune points to teleport a second person.  The spell description supercedes that, saying it only costs 1 additional ruen point to teleport additional person.  Therefore, it would make no sense (and given munchkinnery, potentially could be degenerately broken - I don't know how, but one never does until the munchkins get a hold of it) for Teleport to be stackable.

No, this isn't how it works - "Stackable" just means that you're allowed to add Rune Points for some specific purpose. Compare "Bless Champion", for instance, which is a 2-point spell but is Stackable because it allows a duration increase for a Rune Point, or Bless Pregnancy, which is a 2-point spell but is Stackable because it allows Rune Point spends on a one-to-one basis for characteristics increases.  

Teleportation should emphatically have "Stackable".

Edited December 23, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That's not how the resistance table works, 30 points has a 95% chance of neutralising 21.

Shield 21 counts as 42 points for dispelling or neutralizing with Sorcery. You need 42 points to get 50% of neutralizing, half this to even get a chance and double this to automatically neutralize (see spell description). For 95%, you need 60 (42+9*2).

[Akhôrahil]

23 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Shield 21 counts as 42 points for dispelling or neutralizing with Sorcery. You need 42 points to get 50% of neutralizing, half this to even get a chance and double this to automatically neutralize (see spell description). For 95%, you need 60 (42+9*2).

Oh my god, that's some awful self-contradictory rules text:
 

Quote

This spell neutralizes any spell with duration if it overcomes
the strength of the target spell on the resistance table. Rune
magic has a strength of 2 for every Rune point used to cast
the Rune spell. The Neutralize Magic spell’s strength must
be at least half that of the spell in question. If the spell’s
strength is twice or more the target spell’s strength, the spell
automatically neutralizes the target spell.

First it says "use the resistance table". Then it says something completely different that contradicts using the resistance table. In the very next sentence!! 
(The only way it could not be a contradiction is if you're supposed to use the resistance table, but only in case it's between x0.5 and x2 the target spell. But why would you write it like this?! Just use the damned resistance table!) 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:29 AM, Kloster said:

I would say a 'Neutralize Magic' 21 can, a 'Neutralize Magic' 42 has a 50% chance and a 'Neutralize Magic' 84 automatically removes the shield 21.

Let me try again then. Neutralize 42 indeed has 50%, but 51 has 95%.

[PhilHibbs]

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oh my god, that's some awful self-contradictory rules text:
 

First it says "use the resistance table". Then it says something completely different that contradicts using the resistance table. In the very next sentence!! 
(The only way it could not be a contradiction is if you're supposed to use the resistance table, but only in case it's between x0.5 and x2 the target spell. But why would you write it like this?! Just use the damned resistance table!) 

The latter, it's not self-contradictory, they've just added a special case so you can guarantee neutralizing a 2 point spell without having to have 11 points for a 95% chance. You only need 4. I think they did this because the Resistance Table creaks at very small numbers since it's built around characteristics, not spell points.

Edited December 23, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

Shield 21 counts as 42 points for dispelling or neutralizing with Sorcery. You need 42 points to get 50% of neutralizing, half this to even get a chance and double this to automatically neutralize (see spell description). For 95%, you need 60 (42+9*2).

42 points of Dispel, which is not impossible for a shaman who has taken the extra Charisma gift a couple of times. Plus an additional MP to overcome its CM effect.

But I disagree with your doubling of the MP cost when it comes to applying the resistance table. 33 points of intensity gives a Neutralize a 5% chance on the resistance table, 51 points a 95% chance.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Let me try again then. Neutralize 42 indeed has 50%, but 51 has 95%.

It can also be read that way.

[Kloster]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

42 points of Dispel, which is not impossible for a shaman who has taken the extra Charisma gift a couple of times. Plus an additional MP to overcome its CM effect.

Yes.

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But I disagree with your doubling of the MP cost when it comes to applying the resistance table. 33 points of intensity gives a Neutralize a 5% chance on the resistance table, 51 points a 95% chance.

Maybe.

[Pentallion]

On 12/23/2019 at 5:20 AM, Akhôrahil said:

No, this isn't how it works - "Stackable" just means that you're allowed to add Rune Points for some specific purpose. Compare "Bless Champion", for instance, which is a 2-point spell but is Stackable because it allows a duration increase for a Rune Point, or Bless Pregnancy, which is a 2-point spell but is Stackable because it allows Rune Point spends on a one-to-one basis for characteristics increases.  

Teleportation should emphatically have "Stackable".

Stackable means you can cast it multiple times at regular cost.  Your definition is incorrect.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Stackable means you can cast it multiple times at regular cost.  Your definition is incorrect.

This is simply wrong. Go check any number of stackable spells that don't work at all like how you describe. Check out, among others, Bless Pregnancy, Earth Power, Hide Fire, Oath, Suppress Lodril... 

Being "stackable" simply means that additional rune point(s) can be spent for some additional effect. That is all. (The definition on p. 315 is at best incomplete and worst erroneous, as can be seen from the actual way the term is used in the spells. P. 314 has the definition that is actually used - "If a spell is stackable they may spend additional Rune points to increase its effect.")

Edited December 25, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Zit]

if you want to escape a hopeless spirit combat, can't you just kill yourself and hope for a resurection, since killing sends your spirit to the Hell, far away from the attacking spirit or ghost ?

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Zit said:

if you want to escape a hopeless spirit combat, can't you just kill yourself and hope for a resurection, since killing sends your spirit to the Hell, far away from the attacking spirit or ghost ?

I'm not seeing any egregious munchkinnerry here...

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Zit said:

if you want to escape a hopeless spirit combat, can't you just kill yourself and hope for a resurection, since killing sends your spirit to the Hell, far away from the attacking spirit or ghost ?

I do not believe death provides a "spiritual teleport" effect.  IIRC it begins a 7(?) - day journey.  Some RW traditions use other durations, up to 40 days IIRC; I think Glorantha has a canonical number here, but don't recall what it is...  And may be misrecalling that such a number even exists in Glorantha...

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 hours ago, g33k said:

I do not believe death provides a "spiritual teleport" effect.  IIRC it begins a 7(?) - day journey.  Some RW traditions use other durations, up to 40 days IIRC; I think Glorantha has a canonical number here, but don't recall what it is...  And may be misrecalling that such a number even exists in Glorantha...

And before the journey, doesn't the spirit stay near the body for a moment ? A moment usefull for the attacking one ?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And before the journey, doesn't the spirit stay near the body for a moment ? A moment usefull for the attacking one ?

Yes, the spirit typically lingers for some short period of time. 
Whether that "nearby" is near where any attacking spirit is in the Spirit World is another question. The bends and twists of the Spirit World (at least in my Gloranthan Spirit World) could mean any number of things, but the attacking spirit is likely attacking because it wants the real-world body, and will ignore the now-detached spirit from the body (if it's even aware of it - might require a Spirit Travel or Spirit Dance to find or follow it).

[Akhôrahil]

Bless Woad and Bless Thunderstone are being limited by only being able to cast on the HHD, meaning that while you can empty your Rune Point pool on them, you can only do it once yearly (maybe twice if you can convince your GM you cast both just before and just after the HHD worship). Otherwise you would be able to keep doing it and stack up huge stores of permanent magic.

From a munchkin perspective, this is no good. Fortunately, you can bypass this using the most munchkin spell in the book. Spell Trading to the rescue!

Take two Orlanthi (Rune Level of same subcult) and an Issaries. The Orlanthi each Spell Trade the largest Bless Woad/Thunderstone they can afford to the other. They repeat this as often as they can. Then, come the HHD, each casts all the spell traded spells, which they can do as these come pre-paid and since it really is HHD now. Using Spell Trading, you time-shifted the Rune Point expenditure, allowing you to cast as much Bless Woad/Thunderstone as all the Rune Points you managed to save up during the year, which could easily be triple digits if you observe worship religiously.  

Edited February 13, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[HreshtIronBorne]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

From a munchkin perspective, this is no good. Fortunately, you can bypass this using the most munchkin spell in the book. Spell Trading to the rescue!

I like this interpretation as a hardcore munchkin but, Spell Trading specifically states that both of the traded spells are actively cast into whatever token is being traded between the parties, which can also lead to an accidental 'real' casting 1 in 20 trades. I think depending on how the GM ruled could prevent Woad/Bless thunderstone from being traded. 

[Akhôrahil]

33 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I like this interpretation as a hardcore munchkin but, Spell Trading specifically states that both of the traded spells are actively cast into whatever token is being traded between the parties, which can also lead to an accidental 'real' casting 1 in 20 trades. I think depending on how the GM ruled could prevent Woad/Bless thunderstone from being traded. 

Hmm, what part do you mean? I specifically looked for talk of "casting" that would invalidate the whole thing. As far as I can tell, it only talks about trading, expending rune points, and so on.

I mean, okay, it does in the example text, but example text isn't rules text (especially not in this game with all its copy/paste errors!), and it's reasonable to say that rules text supercedes example text. At the very least, it's room to maneuver in! 

[Joerg]

In order to cast a spell, its requirements need to be fulfilled (e.g. cloud cover and daylight for Sunspear, cloud cover for Thunderbolt). If a spell can only be cast during the High Holy Day, can it could only be traded then?

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

In order to cast a spell, its requirements need to be fulfilled (e.g. cloud cover and daylight for Sunspear, cloud cover for Thunderbolt). If a spell can only be cast during the High Holy Day, can it could only be traded then?

The whole line of reasoning is that if you don’t cast the spell as part of trading it, then you can work around the casting restrictions.