Egregious munchkinnery!

[davecake]

On 12/14/2019 at 10:31 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

My question is basically, does boosting non-attack spells, i.e. those that do not interact with Countermagic, increase the spell's resistance to dispelling? 

You’d be creating an entirely new mechanic, resistance to dispelling. 
 

On 12/14/2019 at 1:49 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

The Troll just dispelled everything the Humakti tried to cast on himself so, we eventually just fought with our Lead and Iron. 

Hoo boy, you want to think about this one. You want to make sure you can Dispel/Dismiss his Seal Wound, probably more than you want to keep that Truesword. 
Truesword can ruin your whole day. But Seal Wound can ruin your whole season. 

[Akhôrahil]

31 minutes ago, davecake said:

You’d be creating an entirely new mechanic, resistance to dispelling. 

This already exists. We have a concept about a spell's size. A spell's size matters both for penetrating countermagic, and for how difficult the spell is to dispel. Boosting a spell adds to its size. The rules are explicit that boosting a spell makes it larger for penetration purposes, and silent on whether boosting makes a spell larger for dispelling purposes. It doesn't help that the section about Boosting is poorly written and lacks any real rules, and that you have to deduce the rule backwards from the example.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

33 minutes ago, davecake said:

Hoo boy, you want to think about this one. You want to make sure you can Dispel/Dismiss his Seal Wound, probably more than you want to keep that Truesword. 
Truesword can ruin your whole day. But Seal Wound can ruin your whole season. 

Truesword normally means you don't get wounded in the first place, though.

[davecake]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Truesword normally means you don't get wounded in the first place, though

The Humakti that have never had a real fight against a Zorak Zoran Death Lord are so cute 😁

 

[Lordabdul]

54 minutes ago, davecake said:

Hoo boy, you want to think about this one. You want to make sure you can Dispel/Dismiss his Seal Wound, probably more than you want to keep that Truesword. 
Truesword can ruin your whole day. But Seal Wound can ruin your whole season. 

I'm confused -- Seal Wound is something the Troll casts on the Humakti. @HreshtIronBorne was talking about the Troll dispelling everything the Humakti cast on himself.

That opens up a couple questions for me though:

• One of the Trolls casts Seal Wound on the Humakti, and another Troll cast Dispel Magic afterwards (bad SR combination, or bad coordination on their part), without any specific target. Assume that, for some stupid reason, the Humakti doesn't have any spell active of their own... would the Dispel Magic go down the priority list (no defense spell, no offense spell...) and eventually dispel Seal Wound?
• Can you dispel multiple spells at once? Say you stack up 30 MPs in Dispel Magic... would that  dispel up to 30 points worth of spells, or would that dispel the first defense spell, which might be only worth 4 points, and then 26 MPs are just lost and wasted?

23 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The rules are [...] silent on whether boosting makes a spell larger for dispelling purposes.

Yep, although there has always been some people (a majority?) who strongly believe that boosting MPs "evaporate" after casting. I don't recall any official ruling or WoD Q&A on the matter though.

Edited March 5, 2020 by lordabdul

[HreshtIronBorne]

Seal Wound
2 Points
Ranged, Temporal, Nonstackable
Damage done by the weapon this spell is applied to will not regenerate or heal magically but must be healed in the normal time it would take. Thus Heal 2 will cauterize a wound, but 
not heal it, Heal 6 will restore a limb but not mend it, etc.

Seal Wound is cast on the attacking Troll's weapon, from what I understand Seal Wound is a large component in the assassination of Kallyr and many other would-be Heroes as we race towards the Hero Wars. 

[Lordabdul]

18 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Seal Wound is cast on the attacking Troll's weapon

I thought this was a Troll-only spell but actually I got the page wrong, it's a Tusk Rider spell. It doesn't show up in the core rulebook as a spell Humakti (or any PC for that matter) can get access to. Am I missing something?

Edited March 5, 2020 by lordabdul

[HreshtIronBorne]

Seal Wound is in the Bestiary under Zorak Zoran Special Cult Rune Magic. I am sure there are other cults that grant access to the spell but, ZZ is the big one I remember from many years of RQ3. 

I also figure this is a major reason that the Troll Healing deities provide Healing Trance, which accelerates natural healing, allowing persons to recover from a Sealed Wound somewhat faster. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by HreshtIronBorne
More thoughts

[davecake]

55 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I'm confused -- Seal Wound is something the Troll casts on the Humakti

You are confused because you read the spell wrong. It is cast on the weapon - and you can dispel the spell - but not the effects of the spell. Once the damage is inflicted, it’s unsealable except the long way. 
(maybe a DI could make it healable? No other normal magic, though)

30 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

It doesn't show up in the core rulebook as a spell Humakti (or any PC for that matter) can get access to.

30 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I thought this was a Troll-only spell but actually I got the page wrong, it's a Tusk Rider spell

It is a spell for both the Bloody Tusk, and Zorak Zoran, but no, Humakt etc do not have access to it. Humans can join those cults though - rare for a human to join Bloody Tusk for any reason other than to avoid being killed by Tusk Riders (and that option is only available if the beat a Tusker with their bare hands), but humans can join Zorak Zoran, and it happens a bit in a few places. 
You aren’t missing anything apart from that. Sometimes there is Magic only the bad guys have. And even when ZZ is a PC/on your side, they are still the bad guys. 

[davecake]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Can you dispel multiple spells at once? Say you stack up 30 MPs in Dispel Magic... would that  dispel up to 30 points worth of spells, or would that dispel the first defense spell, which might be only worth 4 points, and then 26 MPs are just lost and wasted?

I’m not sure - the spell descriptions are unclear, I think I would allow it? But you would have to do it by casting a more powerful spell, not ‘stacking’ MPs. Eg to cast 30 mps worth of Dispel Magic, you would need to know Dispel Magic 30. And yes, excess would be wasted. 
You could get the same effect from a Dismiss Magic 15 using 15 rune points. And some issue - if there are not the equivalent of 30 points of spirit magic, excess is wasted. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by davecake

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• Can you dispel multiple spells at once? Say you stack up 30 MPs in Dispel Magic... would that  dispel up to 30 points worth of spells, or would that dispel the first defense spell, which might be only worth 4 points, and then 26 MPs are just lost and wasted?

It's totally unclear, I would say. Maybe the implication is that it only targets one spell, but that's just my vague feeling.

[Humakt]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

It is a spell for both the Bloody Tusk, and Zorak Zoran, but no, Humakt etc do not have access to it.

May be some Issaries priest with good trade relationships with trolls shows up?

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Humakt said:

May be some Issaries priest with good trade relationships with trolls shows up?

More likely that a Stormbully wants it off the ZZ, and use the Issaries as the middle merchant.

But Gloranthas are different...

[HreshtIronBorne]

Would Seal Wound stop Chaos baddies from regenerating if they had some power for that? It would stop intelligent chaos things from getting back up before you could finish off their friends, I guess? I assume it wouldn't do anything against something like a walktapus, which just has crazy "natural" regeneration powers. 

[davecake]

I’d play it that a spell is a spell, whether it is Chaotic or not, but a power that increase the reverberation rate is ‘natural’ healing, even if it Chaotic and crazy fast. But it’s Chaotic and doesn’t even need to be consistent between two walktapi siblings. 

.

[PhilHibbs]

19 hours ago, davecake said:

You’d be creating an entirely new mechanic, resistance to dispelling. 

19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This already exists. We have a concept about a spell's size. A spell's size matters both for penetrating countermagic, and for how difficult the spell is to dispel. Boosting a spell adds to its size. The rules are explicit that boosting a spell makes it larger for penetration purposes, and silent on whether boosting makes a spell larger for dispelling purposes.

It's silent because it doesn't have that effect, and there's nothing to say that it does.

19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It doesn't help that the section about Boosting is poorly written and lacks any real rules, and that you have to deduce the rule backwards from the example.

Maybe it does need to be explicitly stated, but it's never been needed in the past to my knowledge. Then again in the past we didn't have the internet, so I don't know if people had the same confusion. I do remember talking about it back in the day, but we quickly came to the conclusion that boosting MPs do not increase resistance to dispelling.

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's silent because it doesn't have that effect, and there's nothing to say that it does.

The closest thing to rules we have is the example, which says "This time she boosts the spell with 4 magic points, making it effectively a 6-point spell." I actually don't think the intention is to allow defensive boosting, but the most direct reading of the rules would indicate that you can. Your spell just got bigger, and bigger spells are harder to dispel.

21 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe it does need to be explicitly stated, but it's never been needed in the past to my knowledge. 

It really does. The rules say "A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses." And that's it. It doesn't say anything about how it's done or what the effects are - that's just in the example.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[gochie]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses.

It says that because some spells can be boosted for other reasons. Sword Trance can be boosted for increased %, Axis Mundi can be boosted to make it last longer, Safe can be boosted to overcome POW,  Harmony and Inviolable can be boosted to overcome other emotion-affecting spells like Berserk, Arouse Passion, etc. In each of these cases, the spell is not better at resisting dispelling.

Boosting to make the spell pierce Counterspell/Shield/etc is a tool available for any (most?) spell, and those MP are gone/useless as soon as the spell takes effect.

Edited March 6, 2020 by gochie

[Darius West]

Obviously the ultimate munchkin trick is becoming an illuminate.  Then you get to mix and match cults and magical traditions, creating truly filthy synergies, and even get to use chaos cults without penalty.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Obviously the ultimate munchkin trick is becoming an illuminate.  Then you get to mix and match cults and magical traditions, creating truly filthy synergies, and even get to use chaos cults without penalty.

The ultimate munchkin trick is to become an illuminate or otherwise enlightened and not letting it influence your behavior. Take Sheng Seleris as the ultimate mystic munchkin, or munchkin mystic. 100 years of the strictest austerities, and he emerges only shortly as an enlightened advisor before falling back to his raider chief self.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Obviously the ultimate munchkin trick is becoming an illuminate.  Then you get to mix and match cults and magical traditions, creating truly filthy synergies, and even get to use chaos cults without penalty.

the ultimate munchkin is to be at the same time the GM and the player

or maybe to play ouroboros...

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

More likely that a Stormbully wants it off the ZZ, and use the Issaries as the middle merchant.

Storm Bull and Zorak Zoran are Associate Cults, so the Storm Buller can just join Zorak Zoran to get Seal Wound.

15 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would Seal Wound stop Chaos baddies from regenerating if they had some power for that? It would stop intelligent chaos things from getting back up before you could finish off their friends, I guess?

Yes.

15 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I assume it wouldn't do anything against something like a walktapus, which just has crazy "natural" regeneration powers. 

It stops Walktapus Regeneration, as far as I know, That isn't natural healing.

On 3/5/2020 at 4:57 PM, davecake said:

The Humakti that have never had a real fight against a Zorak Zoran Death Lord are so cute 😁

Seal Wound and Crush 20 is a good combination, except that it takes forever to roll the 20D4.

[davecake]

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's silent because it doesn't have that effect, and there's nothing to say that it does.

Indeed. 

i find the idea of stacking extra magic points to make something harder to dispel entirely absent from the rules. 

[davecake]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Seal Wound and Crush 20 is a good combination, except that it takes forever to roll the 20D4.

Crush is awesome. While using Sword Trance can get to amazing levels of skill, Crush helps ZZ get to amazing levels of damage. Of course, the real winners on that comparison are Babeester Gor, with Axe Trance and Slash
But even without ridiculous levels of Crush, a ZZ Death Lord big troll

• Often has a 2d6 damage bonus that they can push to 3d6 with magic
• armed with a maul, has a very low Strike rank (as they also have huge SIZ), so usually hits first
• loves to use the tactics Humakti won’t - like ambushes. And a few repeated hit and run attacks from the darkness works great with Seal Wound, because the ZZer heals between attacks runs but their opponents can’t. For huge monsters, they are very stealthy and sneaky. 
• Zombies can really challenge opponents (like Humakti overconfident in the power of Truesword) who rely on taking down opponents fast, as they are hardly bothered by losing a limb. 
• You can’t neglect magic defenses when fighting them either, because they have Fear, and maybe even Sever Spirit. Plus ghosts so you can’t neglect spirit defenses either. Of course Humakt is the same - the two cults are well matched. And don’t forget those shades.
• Has that lovely habit of softening up opponents by masses of trollkin skirmishers, hiding in the darkness with missile attacks. Profoundly irritating to people who rely on melee attacks.....

ZZ really rock against Chaos too, obviously. Besides all the above, plus Berserker, it’s worth bearing in mind that many of them will also be members of Kygor Litor as well, so they are likely to have a Counter Chaos or two as an ace in the hole. 

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Storm Bull and Zorak Zoran are Associate Cults, so the Storm Buller can just join Zorak Zoran to get Seal Wound.

Perhaps the Stormbully doesn't want to join a cult of psycho, murderhobo fanatics....