Egregious munchkinnery!

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps the Stormbully doesn't want to join a cult of psycho, murderhobo fanatics.... 

Too late for that!

[Thaz]

34 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Too late for that!

Mine would be totally up for it, except his best friend is a Humakti and would sulk.  Didn't stop him sloping off and learning Fear (POW rolls dude)

[PhilHibbs]

A friend and I both rolled "noble" background, so we said we were brothers. I wanted to play a Humakti, so that made me the black sheep of the family, until Andy decided he wanted to play a Storm Bull. We joked about a younger brother who joins Zorak Zoran, a kid sister Baby Gor, and a baby brother who ends up in Gark.

[davecake]

On 3/6/2020 at 12:36 AM, Akhôrahil said:

This already exists. We have a concept about a spell's size. A spell's size matters both for penetrating countermagic, and for how difficult the spell is to dispel.

You made up this mechanic. There is no such concept as ‘spell size’ in the rules - there is intensity, and explicitly magic points  (for example, sorcerous manipulation of range or duration) and Rune Points (such as Extension) can be cast as part of a spell casting but not increase intensity. And magic points can be cast to boost a spell to get through Countermagic - but it says nothing about dispelling there. 

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

You made up this mechanic. There is no such concept as ‘spell size’ in the rules - there is intensity, and explicitly magic points  (for example, sorcerous manipulation of range or duration) and Rune Points (such as Extension) can be cast as part of a spell casting but not increase intensity. And magic points can be cast to boost a spell to get through Countermagic - but it says nothing about dispelling there. 

"The next round Vasana decides to cast Demoralize, a 2-point
spirit magic spell, on the same troll. This time she boosts the
spell with 4 magic points, making it effectively a 6-point spell."

This is the closest thing we have to a rule about boosting, and it clearly talks about the size of a spell. Similarly, for dispelling purposes, a Rune Spell is twice as "big" per point as a rune spell, and of course sorcery has the same notion. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is the closest thing we have to a rule about boosting, and it clearly talks about the size of a spell.

Usually casual language to explain a rule doesn’t mean you can then extrapolate to new, not actually mentioned rules and insist they are there when they aren’t. 

21 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Similarly, for dispelling purposes, a Rune Spell is twice as "big" per point

Yes, but that’s an explicit rule about intensity. 

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

of course sorcery has the same notion

Sorcery is quite explicit that not all additional uses of magic points increase intensity or make it harder to dispel. It’s the opposite from what you are suggesting. 

[Akhôrahil]

45 minutes ago, davecake said:

Usually casual language to explain a rule doesn’t mean you can then extrapolate to new, not actually mentioned rules and insist they are there when they aren’t. ...

Sorcery is quite explicit that not all additional uses of magic points increase intensity or make it harder to dispel. It’s the opposite from what you are suggesting. 

We do agree that there is such a thing as "size of a spell" for dispelling purposes, surely, as well as for spell penetration purposes? Even if some stuff don't add to it? This is why sorcery, spirit magic and rune magic all share a system about dispelling and penetration - spell sizes are commensurable. So while you could argue that boosting a spell makes it bigger for penetration purposes but not for dispelling purposes (although one would then wonder where in the rules you find this distinction), I don't think you could argue that the size of a spell isn't a concept.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

We do agree that there is such a thing as "size of a spell" for dispelling purposes, surely, as well as for spell penetration purposes?

There is spell intensity. I haven’t seen any evidence that ‘size of a spell’ for dispelling purposes differs from intensity. 

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

while you could argue that boosting a spell makes it bigger for penetration purposes but not for dispelling purposes (although one would then wonder where in the rules you find this distinction),

I do argue that - and I find it in the rules because all the rules that talk about Dispelling reference intensity of the spell (which has a clear, explicit, definition on page 247). And the rules for boosting are explicitly about penetration and nowhere mention anything else. The rules don’t say “and we want to be clear that we don’t mean this other concept that a guy named Akhõrahil will come up with”, but they are perfectly clear what they do mean. 

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't think you could argue that the size of a spell isn't a concept.

sure, it’s just not a concept that applies the way you think, or is as clear as you think, or has any specific meaning in the rules. A sorcery spell that has a lot of range and duration but a small intensity might be considered ‘big’ because it takes a heap of magic points to cast, but it’s still easy to resist and has a weak effect. 
 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

There is spell intensity. I haven’t seen any evidence that ‘size of a spell’ for dispelling purposes differs from intensity. 

I do argue that - and I find it in the rules because all the rules that talk about Dispelling reference intensity of the spell (which has a clear, explicit, definition on page 247). And the rules for boosting are explicitly about penetration and nowhere mention anything else. The rules don’t say “and we want to be clear that we don’t mean this other concept that a guy named Akhõrahil will come up with”, but they are perfectly clear what they do mean. 

sure, it’s just not a concept that applies the way you think, or is as clear as you think, or has any specific meaning in the rules. A sorcery spell that has a lot of range and duration but a small intensity might be considered ‘big’ because it takes a heap of magic points to cast, but it’s still easy to resist and has a weak effect. 
 

I disagree.

How large a Dismiss Magic do you need for a Sword Trance with 10MPs? Just 1 for the Rune Spell? Or 12 for the Rune Spell plus the 10 MP?

Dismiss Magic 3 "boosted" by 4 MP should still only Dismiss 3 RPs worth of magic, not 5... 

Any spell that has Extension on it... Shield 1 + Extension 4 = ? for dispelling purposes?

So, yes, there is a conceptual distinction that should probably be clarified.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I disagree.

Sure. I'm not saying there aren't conceptual arguments either way, just that the rules don't support it explicitly. Making up your own rules because you find it works conceptually better for you is fine, just realise it when you do it. 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

How large a Dismiss Magic do you need for a Sword Trance with 10MPs?

Literally Sword and Axe Trance are the only ambiguities here - and its not because of some conceptual concept of 'bigness', it's because the rules are ambiguous about whether the MPs stacked with it count as adding to the spells Intensity or not. The only other spell that normally stacks with magic points is Heal Wound, and thats not dispellable because its instant, so Trance spells are a case of their own - in the specific case of Axe/Sword Trance, you can disagree with my conclusion if you want (maybe you are really worried they aren't overpowered enough and really want to make them usually super hard to Dispel as well?), but if you disagree with the reasoning about Intensity vs total spell 'size', you've changed not just those spells but the rules of the whole magic system. 

The rules are not ambiguous, for example, on whether total magic points (or other magic) used in casting is how you normally work out if you can Dispel something (its not, as Extension and other sorcerous manipulation doesn't count), or if magic points used to boost a spell through Countermagic etc hang around to make it harder to Dispel. Do you think if someone casts a Demoralise and boosts it with 3 magic points to get through a Countermagic 2, that its now a 5 point spell that requires Dispel Magic 5? If yes, thats a change to the rules. If no, you are disagreeing with a specific conclusion not my general argument. 

And I'm going to keep my specific conclusion (that Trance spells MPs don't add to Intensity) just because I don't want the specific Trance spells to have even more advantages other spells don't, and that weren't intended by design. I'm seriously considering just house ruling that 'they double your skill like Arrow Trance, no MPs needed' which makes the spells consistent with Arrow Trance and Berserker, and solves SO many weird edge cases from these spells having no limit to the size of effect you can have as long as you have MPs, unlike every other spell in the Game (except Heal Wound which is self-limiting, and oddities like Lock). Maybe make it 2 points then? But Arrow Trance is 1 so maybe not necessary. 

(FWIW, the official Chaosium ruling, is that the MPs stacked with Heal Wound counts like boosting for getting through Countermagic, and I'm happy for that to apply to both Heal Wound and Trance spells as well - its only if they persist for Dispel purposes that is at issue here for me)

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by davecake
updated to reflect other spells details

[Austin]

I'm not entirely certain if it's Egregious, or even Munchkinnery, but I'm pretty sure RAW an Odaylan can use Martial Arts while transformed into a bear. Haven't done the math to see how good or not it is (and all the problems with bear-form aside), but I mean... that's at least cool, right?

Is there a category of Munchkinnery for cool stuff?

[HreshtIronBorne]

I think Soltakks literally has a whole brand around the Rule of Cool. Stories of a lead boned trolls with shades bound into them and polearm pixies. 

One of my favorite short stories/snippets/whatever I read about Glorantha features some dude with fire powers throwing javelins attached to his belt on reels with cables, then jumping around slicing slime deer up with the flaming javelins/wires and shit. I have no idea where this story came from but, it was awesomesauce. 

I have NO IDEA how you'd get anywhere freaking close to that in RAW RQG but, I will be damned if I wouldn't aid and abet a player in making it happen, because it is FREAKING AWESOME! 

[Austin]

18 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I have NO IDEA how you'd get anywhere freaking close to that in RAW RQG but, I will be damned if I wouldn't aid and abet a player in making it happen, because it is FREAKING AWESOME! 

Rule of Cool definitely has created some canon at my table.

I described the Battle of Pennel Ford to my players as Harrek basically catching Yelm's Sun Spear and chucking it back at the priests. When I tried to backpedal from the literal physical actions of it, they demanded that it become canon "because that's badass!"

So that's canon for me now. Harrek can catch Sun Spears with his bare hands.

[HreshtIronBorne]

57 minutes ago, Crel said:

I'm not entirely certain if it's Egregious, or even Munchkinnery, but I'm pretty sure RAW an Odaylan can use Martial Arts while transformed into a bear. Haven't done the math to see how good or not it is (and all the problems with bear-form aside), but I mean... that's at least cool, right?

From what I can read a successful martial arts on a fully Transformed Odaylan Rune Lord would do 2d6 base damage for the claw, a special would slash for 4d6, crit for 24 +DB, which would be cool. You could get a damage bonus of up to 4d6, with Bear's Strength, baller stats, and a Strength spell. Even a brand new dude with mediocre stats can hulk out to get to 3d6 with all the Str+Bear Str. You could also stack on Ironclaw 4 or 6. So, all in all something like 2d6+4d6+6 on a bormal hit for a Rune-Lord Odaylan, 4d6+4d6+6 on a special, both claws each round too! Oh, and the crazy skill boost from stats and spells adds about 100% to hit, so even without practice you become a total badass when you hit the BIG RED RUNEBUTTON!

Edited March 8, 2020 by HreshtIronBorne
more stuff, as always.

[Austin]

3 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

so even without practice you become a total badass when you hit the BIG RED RUNEBUTTON!

It's totally not worth the equivalent RP in Munchkin terms since it turned out you can't Extension the various spells involved (which makes me sad since when I get to play my adventurer is an Odaylan), but oh my god it is satisfying when you start ripping enemies apart.

[HreshtIronBorne]

The total package is pretty cool though, and I would allow a player top stack Extension with anyt of the individual Transformation spells.  

 

I think I would personally run somr HeroQuest or something and get them an iteme that allowed them to transform a little more liberally. I played a Basmoli back in RQ3 and stacked a whole bunch of castings of all of the tramsformation spells. I think between matrices, spells known, and his truestone shard he could transform completely 4 or 5 times and had several more of strength and claws. Because they were and are amazing. Granted this was a powerful and long lived character but, with the cap on RP it sorta leaves the transformation soells in a bit of a weird spot. 

 

[Thaz]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

It's totally not worth the equivalent RP in Munchkin terms since it turned out you can't Extension the various spells involved (which makes me sad since when I get to play my adventurer is an Odaylan), but oh my god it is satisfying when you start ripping enemies apart.

Given how little love the various hunters get IMG you can extend these spells. Currently one of my players is off at Blue Boar fort and is being instructed by two old Hunters....one of whom isn't much help as he's currently a Bear and isn't planning on dropping his Extension just because someone wants to talk to him. It's winter and its cold and he prefers being a bear right now. 

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

I'm not entirely certain if it's Egregious, or even Munchkinnery, but I'm pretty sure RAW an Odaylan can use Martial Arts while transformed into a bear. Haven't done the math to see how good or not it is (and all the problems with bear-form aside), but I mean... that's at least cool, right?

 

Move over Kung-Fu Panda. Yes, definitely cool.

[Darius West]

On 3/7/2020 at 7:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps the Stormbully doesn't want to join a cult of psycho, murderhobo fanatics.... 

Uh-kay Zorak Zoran. Back you go to wait for a Stormbull wid less discriminatin' taste.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Darius West

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Thaz said:

It's winter and its cold and he prefers being a bear right now

Why isn't he sleeping it off in a cave then?

[gochie]

7 hours ago, Crel said:

I'm not entirely certain if it's Egregious, or even Munchkinnery, but I'm pretty sure RAW an Odaylan can use Martial Arts while transformed into a bear. Haven't done the math to see how good or not it is (and all the problems with bear-form aside), but I mean... that's at least cool, right?

Is there a category of Munchkinnery for cool stuff?

Do MA work with Cestus? Fighting claws? Where does it stop exactly--a "hand blade" à-la Assassin's Creed/Diablo 2 assassin?

[HreshtIronBorne]

The rules for martial arts state natural weapons, so i would assume anything that lets you use your natural weapon skills, like Claws specifically mentions it uses your Fist attack %. 

[Thaz]

3 hours ago, gochie said:

Do MA work with Cestus? Fighting claws? Where does it stop exactly--a "hand blade" à-la Assassin's Creed/Diablo 2 assassin?

They did in rq3 if memory serves. I would assume so. 

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Any spell that has Extension on it... Shield 1 + Extension 4 = ? for dispelling purposes?

Clarified by Chaosium. Shield 1 + Extension 4 is not made more powerful for dispelling purposes. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-14-rune-magic/

[Thaz]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why isn't he sleeping it off in a cave then?

Because there's a big fire in the hall and liquid honey on tap (aka mead).