Egregious munchkinnery!

[g33k]

On 3/8/2020 at 1:47 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

I think Soltakks literally has a whole brand around the Rule of Cool. Stories of a lead boned trolls with shades bound into them and polearm pixies...

Yeah, his brand definitely dominates that market.  But 1 K / 2 SS :  Soltak StormSpear.  He turns into Sulky StormSpear otherwise.  

Don't forget the Dark Troll had a black leather bikers' jacket cuirass with his name picked out across the back in POW crystals.

Nor the Mello Yello retrospective he posted...

 

On 3/8/2020 at 1:47 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

 ... javelins attached to his belt on reels with cables ... 

I have NO IDEA how you'd get anywhere freaking close to that in RAW RQG but, I will be damned if I wouldn't aid and abet a player in making it happen, because it is FREAKING AWESOME! 

Mostali devices, clearly.  Add a touch of handwavium.  Implicit in the Gloranthan setting, even if you need to create the specific item:  it fits entirely with the RAW vibe for the Mostali.

Jumping/mobility magic (and of course fire magic!) for the rest.

[Crel]

Beginning Play as a High Healer of Chalana Arroy:

Did some math for a conversation over in the FB RQ group, and I think you can start play as a High Healer with lucky starting characteristics. You take the Esrolia Homeland, Assistant Shaman occupation (IIRC in prior editions it's noted that CA can be shamans or sorcerers if they follow cult guidelines, and at least RQG notes that they can still be sorcerers).

• Required characteristics: INT 17+, POW 20+ (sacrificing down to 18 later), CHA 10+.
• Knowledge mod: +15%
• Magic mod: +10% or higher, depending on CHA

High Healer requirement #1 — First Aid 90%

• Base = 10
• Knowledge Mod = 15
• Esrolia = 5
• Assistant Shaman = 15
• Chalana Arroy cult = 20
• Cult Bonus #2 = 15
• Personal = 10
• Total = 90%

High Healer requirement #2 — Treat Disease 50%

• Base = 5
• Knowledge Mod = 15
• Chalana Arroy cult = 15 (You chose +15 to either Treat Disease or Treat Poison)
• Personal = 25
• Total = 60%

High Healer requirement #3 — Treat Poison 50%

• Base = 5
• Knowledge Mod = 15
• Cult Bonus #1 = 20 (From the bonus +20 and +15 you can assign to starting cult skills—nothing says you can't pick the unpicked half of Treat Disease/Poison; this is the most sketchy part of this adventurer creation IMO)
• Personal = 10
• Total = 50%

High Healer requirement #4 — Worship (Chalana Arroy) 50%

• Base = 5
• Magic Mod = 10
• Generic Cult bonus = 20
• Personal = 25
• Total = 60%

High Healer requirement #5 — Know Heal 6 or greater

• Assistant Shaman occupation: Second Sight (3pt.), Heal 1, 1 point of any other spell.
• Chalana Arroy cult: 5 additional points of Heal.
• Total: Heal 6, Second Sight (3pt.), and 1 additional point of spirit magic.

High Healer requirement #6 — Have 5 Rune points

• Adventurer creation: start with 3 points.
• Sacrifice 2 points of POW, down to POW 18.
• Total: 5 Rune points

Did I miss anything? Put my foot in my mouth on the math?

[Crel]

3 minutes ago, Crel said:

Beginning Play as a High Healer of Chalana Arroy

Oh, and additional upside that once you become a shaman and get a fetch the party healer will gain a ton more magical endurance. Although the fetch will be crap at first due to needing to stay at 18 POW (assuming saccing to go below for the fetch would qualify as voluntary, and a No Go for a theist).

Self-rez Chalana Arroy, then resurrect your favorite party member. And others, if you've still got RP post-TPK. Or just the whole "I resist magic with 25+ POW, nice try casting magic at me, folks."

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

High Healer requirement #5 — Know Heal 6 or greater

• Assistant Shaman occupation: Second Sight (3pt.), Heal 1, 1 point of any other spell.
• Chalana Arroy cult: 5 additional points of Heal.
• Total: Heal 6, Second Sight (3pt.), and 1 additional point of spirit magic.

I think that's something that a mean GM might slap you down for - that the cult will teach you 5 points of Heal, but it doesn't stack with 1 point learned through shamanic methods. If you want to learn Heal 6, you need to learn Heal 6. You can't learn 1 point from one person and 5 points from another.

[gochie]

35 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think that's something that a mean GM might slap you down for - that the cult will teach you 5 points of Heal, but it doesn't stack with 1 point learned through shamanic methods. If you want to learn Heal 6, you need to learn Heal 6. You can't learn 1 point from one person and 5 points from another.

It's legit at character creation as far as the book goes. Getting an additional 2 points of spirit magic for being assistant shaman can bring it to 6, or even 7. 

I know in RQ3 we limited starting spirit spells to 3 points for initiates and I think 5 points for Priests/Rune lords (before needing to go to a shaman), but those were likely house-rules. 

[Thaz]

I suspect the cults book may limit CA's ability to be a shaman as well...but hey I guess you could argue they started off that way and then converted when healed by a White Lady. We shall see when it comes out 😄   Good Munchkining. And much less likely to get a slap down as a healer than as a Warrior IMHO

 

[gochie]

29 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I suspect the cults book may limit CA's ability to be a shaman as well...but hey I guess you could argue they started off that way and then converted when healed by a White Lady. We shall see when it comes out 😄   Good Munchkining. And much less likely to get a slap down as a healer than as a Warrior IMHO

 

It's worth pointing out that an assistant shaman is NOT a shaman. There is nothing wrong in assisting a shaman as an up-and-coming Chalana Arroy initiate, especially if he's the main healer of your little village. 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

It's legit at character creation as far as the book goes. Getting an additional 2 points of spirit magic for being assistant shaman can bring it to 6, or even 7. 

I think there's an ongoing issue where it's not clear, if you already know a spell, if there's a difference between learning "more points" of a spell, or learning a higher-level of that spell.

Does "Heal 2" + "Heal 3" = "Heal 5" when learning?

After that, can you just learn "Heal 1" and be at Heal 6?

===

At character creation, the assumption is you're learning from one cult, so you can "stack" points of magic and single-source your Big Spells.

I don't think that works when learning magic from multiple sources...  

[gochie]

23 minutes ago, g33k said:

I think there's an ongoing issue where it's not clear, if you already know a spell, if there's a difference between learning "more points" of a spell, or learning a higher-level of that spell.

Does "Heal 2" + "Heal 3" = "Heal 5" when learning?

After that, can you just learn "Heal 1" and be at Heal 6?

===

At character creation, the assumption is you're learning from one cult, so you can "stack" points of magic and single-source your Big Spells.

I don't think that works when learning magic from multiple sources...  

Don't get me wrong, I think what you're saying makes complete sense, but at the same time I'm willing to bet the vast majority of GMs will simply tell the player "now you have 7 points of spirit magic to spend on any of your cult's listed spells".

RAW, there is technically nothing preventing a player from doing that, especially an egregious munchkin.

[Crel]

2 hours ago, gochie said:

RAW, there is technically nothing preventing a player from doing that, especially an egregious munchkin.

Yep, that's basically my interpretation. As a gamemaster I'd be inclined to allow it—but @Thaz makes a great point in that if this was the last requirement to be met for becoming a Wind Lord or a Sword, I'd be thinking much more carefully before making that decision.

While not directly relevant, I think Jason's commentary on Well of Daliath tentatively supports this:

Quote

Rune Priests earn a 1- pt increase in cult spirit magic every year, does this mean Bladesharp 6 would ‘tick up’ into Bladesharp 7? Is this also the intent for how spirit spells are learned at increasing variables? You find someone with a Bladesharp 7 and they can improve your Bladesharp 6 to 7?

The 1-point increase is determined by the player and approved by the gamemaster, and is applied to one spell.

It might mean an existing spell increased by one level, or a new spell is gained from the list of existing cult spirit magic spells. 

You learn to improve your spirit magic by finding a teacher and paying them to teach you. Like any subject, they must know it themselves. 

The gamemaster should determine how available the teaching is and whether anyone in the desired area knows the spell at the desired level. It might be that some of the cost in L is for this research. It might also be that in some cases, a spell’s higher level is only available from pretty rarefied sources. Someone with Bladesharp 7 is going to be a pretty intensely dedicated warrior, and might not have the time to spend it teaching magic to newcomers.

 

[Shiningbrow]

19 minutes ago, Crel said:

Yep, that's basically my interpretation. As a gamemaster I'd be inclined to allow it—but @Thaz makes a great point in that if this was the last requirement to be met for becoming a Wind Lord or a Sword, I'd be thinking much more carefully before making that decision.

While not directly relevant, I think Jason's commentary on Well of Daliath tentatively supports this:

 

Having a GM say "yeah, sure, no problem", only to then change it because it suddenly means something they didn't count on is a bit mean.

Standard rules should apply - if you agree to something, don't back out later because it becomes inconvenient! 

As for the Wind Lord or Sword requirement... You forget that you must be an initiate *in good standing* for at least 5 years. Easy "no" for a GM at character creation.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

As for the Wind Lord or Sword requirement... You forget that you must be an initiate *in good standing* for at least 5 years. Easy "no" for a GM at character creation.

That seems harsh - you were probably initiated at age 15-16, and start at 21. GM Fiat that you screwed up in your cult during that period doesn’t strike me as fair.

What is absolutely fair though is to say ”sorry, there’s no current opening - impress us, though...” It’s like getting a job - meeting the bare formal minimum requirements really isn’t a guarantee.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Crel]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Having a GM say "yeah, sure, no problem", only to then change it because it suddenly means something they didn't count on is a bit mean.

Standard rules should apply - if you agree to something, don't back out later because it becomes inconvenient!

That's valid, and I agree with the principle.

I see those comments more as descriptive than prescriptive; I'm more likely to support a munchkinny argument for a healer than for a warrior, subjectively. That doesn't mean that response is correct.

[Thaz]

9 hours ago, gochie said:

It's worth pointing out that an assistant shaman is NOT a shaman. There is nothing wrong in assisting a shaman as an up-and-coming Chalana Arroy initiate, especially if he's the main healer of your little village. 

Agreed. I was more directing this at later comments about a CA High Healer WITH a Fetch being rather powerful (I wouldn't allow this as the two roles take up too much time. Being a Shammy isnt all about healing so its not a 100% overlap. CA God-talker and Shaman maybe................) 

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I was more directing this at later comments about a CA High Healer WITH a Fetch being rather powerful (I wouldn't allow this as the two roles take up too much time. Being a Shammy isnt all about healing so its not a 100% overlap. CA God-talker and Shaman maybe................) 

I would allow it, myself. As a shaman, they are still bound by all the restrictions of a High Healer, but as long as they spend their time healing their choice of methods is up to them, and a shaman in Chalana Arrow presumably spends much of their time summoning fighting disease spirits and summoning healing spirits. It's unusual, as I don't know of any shamanic tradition that is normally associated with Chalana Arrow, but it's not forbidden, and CA has a tradition of embracing any method of healing it can find. 

It is really unusual. You'd want to run it by the GM and work it into your backstory. But in the tradition of player agency and the 13th Age in Glorantha idea of One Unique Thing, it seems like it could lead to an interesting character, one that is unique to be on a path to renown and maybe Hero-dom. My main qualm is I wouldn't want them in a campaign in which the planned themes and action didn't give them enough of a spotlight - it practically yells out for a mighty struggle with a powerful Mallia disease shaman or similar, or other struggle with Chaos that calls out for warrior companions. 

And as for Munchindom - they've chosen to play a CA healer. Munchindom isn't ever really my concern with CAs. They are still bound by every CA rule, plus some random taboos besides, so no combat skills or offensive or harmful magic sure slows down their munchkinry to the point I don't think it would be egregious. But there is plenty there for them to make it worth their trouble - a shamanic Spell Barrage power for multiple Sleep spells a round, for example! And so much potential for POW from fighting disease spirits that you might have to put a rule in to limit it, otherwise their fetch might grow VERY fast. 

I would make them do a lot of shaman things 'the hard way' as they have little guidance compared to a shaman fitting in to an established tradition. Almost no friendly spirits except Healing Spirits, very little access to divine magic through shamanic means, few friendly Great Spirits for shamanic abilities, etc. 

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

What is absolutely fair though is to say ”sorry, there’s no current opening - impress us, though...” It’s like getting a job - meeting the bare formal minimum requirements really isn’t a guarantee.

In an old RQ3 game, I had a green elf PC that qualified for Wood Lord on character creation (15 years of previous experience, = +75 to Elf Bow, etc). I took this same tack - sure you qualify, but first you need to be tested on a mission. I let them become one fairly shortly thereafter, though. 

[Thaz]

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

In an old RQ3 game, I had a green elf PC that qualified for Wood Lord on character creation (15 years of previous experience, = +75 to Elf Bow, etc). I took this same tack - sure you qualify, but first you need to be tested on a mission. I let them become one fairly shortly thereafter, though. 

Kallyr and Jar-eel were both teenagers when they started being impressive. This is a time of Hero's. After a few adventures I'd allow it. But not from the get go. 

[davecake]

1 minute ago, Thaz said:

Jar-eel were both teenagers

Jar-Eel was the Lunar Kwizatch Haderatch, the creation of a multi-generational magical breeding program. She was never a typical PC for a second. 

[Thaz]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Jar-Eel was the Lunar Kwizatch Haderatch, the creation of a multi-generational magical breeding program. She was never a typical PC for a second. 

Indeed. And I see no reason for a Player not to end up at a power level that approaches it....but my I'll make them work for it. It's a time of Hero's so 20 something rune Lords...rare but sure. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

In an old RQ3 game, I had a green elf PC that qualified for Wood Lord on character creation (15 years of previous experience, = +75 to Elf Bow, etc). I took this same tack - sure you qualify, but first you need to be tested on a mission. I let them become one fairly shortly thereafter, though. 

in the other hand, you decided to accept a large previous experience time and skill.

In my previous rules (oriflam -> I believe RQ3 compliant but not sure) 75% was the max you can reach all included if not a knowledge skill

GM has all power in hands to decide if yes or no a pc can start with great powers or not (great power > standard rules, that I already feel as very generous, time of heroes is coming)

That's the main GM's responsability  : decide what is good / allowed  for the table

[Joerg]

39 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

in the other hand, you decided to accept a large previous experience time and skill.

In my previous rules (oriflam -> I believe RQ3 compliant but not sure) 75% was the max you can reach all included if not a knowledge skill

That was through training. Research (with a 1D4-2 reward, or something like that) would take you further. Experience checks work as normal.

As I played RQ3, that was 75% in the skill without skill category modifier - just your "formal" knowledge in the skill, with aptitude the cream on top that could land you in the higher territory if your stats were appropriate.

RQ2 had a hard skill cap at 90% for everyone not being a Rune Level, or at least that was how this was presented to me. I found that one of the less endearing features of RQ2 (as presented to me), but then I never had the chance to join a group as a player, and my GMing was grown on RQ3 (or entirely different rules systems). I used to be able to improvise a fairly close to rules-as-written game in RQ3, with minimal preparation other than knowing where in my material to look for a stat block that might fit the criteria for this non-crucial opponent.

Agenda and circumstances of the main antagonist were always more important than stat blocks.

39 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

GM has all power in hands to decide if yes or no a pc can start with great powers or not (great power > standard rules, that I already feel as very generous, time of heroes is coming)

The RQ games system turns highly skilled characters into glass cannons with limited insurance. There are opponents which may require use of DI to be able to come into range somewhat reliably. And there are entities so outside of normal conventions that they don't even have stat blocks in a war game like Dragon Pass.

It is possible to play a heroquest mainly based on moral choices with largely unskilled characters, and to come out with a world-moving result. RQ - not even RQG with its percentiles for runes and passions - probably is not the vehicle of choice for such quests, though.

[Thaz]

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It is possible to play a heroquest mainly based on moral choices with largely unskilled characters, and to come out with a world-moving result. RQ - not even RQG with its percentiles for runes and passions - probably is not the vehicle of choice for such quests, though.

Remember that you haven't seen all of RQG yet. The rules for heroquesting etc are coming. 

[PhilHibbs]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

I think there's an ongoing issue where it's not clear, if you already know a spell, if there's a difference between learning "more points" of a spell, or learning a higher-level of that spell.

Does "Heal 2" + "Heal 3" = "Heal 5" when learning?

No, if you want to learn Heal 5, you need to find someone who knows Heal 5. I think that's clear, but I need to check the rules, I'll post back here when I've had a chance to do that. Of course, extra points of spell in character creation does not mean "you can learn 1 point, therefore you can only ever learn 1-point spells". The character creation process is representing the overall accumulation of magic over a course of time. It should not be taken too literally.

Edited March 11, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, Thaz said:

Kallyr and Jar-eel were both teenagers when they started being impressive. 

Jar-eel helped break the Ban as an infant.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Jar-eel helped break the Ban as an infant.

Her parents read this thread before conceiving! 

That's Planned Parenthood!