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PhilHibbs

Warning: Egregious munchkinnery!

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4 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

Yes, the mix of uncapped Fetch POW, adding Fetch and Shaman POW, and the 1D3 POW gain from disease spirits can just gets silly quickly.

Shaman Day 1...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11
POW 12                  POW 11

(Disease Spririts) Affinity 2
    +40% to Command & Control
    Disease Spirits are now Very Common

Shaman Day 2...

Discorporate, find Disease Sprit, defeat Disease Spirit, Gain 1D3 POW, capture Disease Spirit in Fetch, command Disease Spirit to attack Shaman, defeat Disease Spirit, gain 1D3 POW... Repeat... (for 16 POW per day?)

Shaman Day 22...

Shaman                  Fetch
CHA 11                   CHA 11 
POW 21                  POW 309
MP 21                     MP 322

No sure about this cheat but usual Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1 (Average of 1pt) and limited to 1 gain per season so gaining (309-11 = 298POW) this much power take 298 seasons = 59 years + 3 seasons ... unless your chaman doing it during the sunstop, it's a bit more than a few days 😜.

I'm pretty sure we did not read the same rules (RQG p418)... and I'm sure the Chaman must first get the POW and the sacrifice it for the fetch to gain one;  That mean, your chaman have a (18+3-12)x5% = 45% of change to success the gain in POW and that mean which you take twice time to get from POW11 to POW309 so something around 120 YEARS. 😈

A MUNCHKIN who doesn't know the rules of the world he live usually DIE ... in your case OF EXTREME AGEING when he get back to his body 120 years after his first discorporation... 🤣

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20 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Are you sure that's correct? 

...

So your starting "Lanhkor Mhy" initiate needs to have the skills of a talented sorcerer to do what you are describing, a wheelbarrow full of magic points to toss around, and they had to have been learned outside of character creation, as literally everything he is doing is not from the LM cult spell or rune list.

Runes of Death and Fire/Sky

Technique of Summoning

Spells: Boon of Kargan Tor, Enhance INT

Not to mention a wheelbarrow full of POW.

+2d6 for a year is a thing in Glorantha, but it is an end-game thing.  Something may have gone horribly wrong.

Yep 😒 horribly wrong...

15 hours ago, Crel said:
16 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

There is also nothing prohibiting you from putting your Personal Skill Bonuses into even MORE new spells. 

This is really key to creating an effective starting sorcerer, IMO.

16 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Remember by RAW, "If the roll fails, then only 1 magic point is lost and the spell has no effect." There is nothing keeping PCs from trying to recast a spell as many times as they want on a day not adventuring. Even starting percentages as low as 25% can allow you to mark every spell every season and have them all up all the time.

FWIW I wouldn't allow an experience check for this as a GM, because you're not casting in a "condition of stress" (RQG 415). But casting during an adventure, when every MP can matter, I probably would.

I personally agree with creel and even more with dissolv : HreshtIronBorney sorcerer is nowhere a LM and there is a lot more way to create this... within the set of logic/rule

I personally don't use these rules but Inscribing Spells : For each point of POW you have a focus for one unique spell with strength+1, range+1, or duration +1 without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer (no need for runes or extra). Imagine with a 8 POW spend on such focus :
-Boon of KT (not in Torvald Fragments) : 2MP (base cost) and you can have +2D6 for 12h and could cast it on on any weapon
-Finger of fire (Surely erased from any LM grimoire) : 3D6 fire damage at 340m range (you'll be kicked out of the cult if you burn a library one day... ) 🤣
-Total Recall : 2MP and you recall every thing in the 34 last years... perfect memory, something worth of the true ML sorcerer. a bit like the "Forgotten" TV series or Sherlock 🧐

You'll have only one super spell, but what the spell and the cost... only base cost, no need to know the runes nor to boost the spell. A wise Munckinnery (that I will probably ban ...or not 🤨)

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5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's been clarified that you get the POW not from defeating Disease Spirits in general, but from being possessed by one and managing to evict it.

I haven't seen that clarification, and I'm not seeing something along those lines on the Well. Could you point me its way? Thanks!

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7 hours ago, Crel said:

I haven't seen that clarification, and I'm not seeing something along those lines on the Well. Could you point me its way? Thanks!

Can’t remember, probably somewhere in the rules QA thread.

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18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

No sure about this cheat but usual Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1

Thanks for the reminder. I was aware I might have misremembered, (I thought it too silly to bother checking) but that would not change the calculation: 16 rounds of Spirit Combat per day is as easy as 11.

18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

and limited to 1 gain per season

I don't recall any indication that is correct for the POW gain from defeating Disease Spirits. The only word I recall from the rules is "immediate." 

18 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I'm sure the Chaman must first get the POW and the sacrifice it for the fetch to gain one

On a superficial reading of page 356, perhaps... But the following makes it clear that "sacrifice" in that passage is meant in the general sense, not the literal. 

"When gaining 1 or more points of POW, a shaman may give this new POW to their fetch, thus increasing the fetch’s POW." p. 358

So... I'm sticking with my 22 hypothetical days for an egregious outcome that has already been gazumped by a rules change. 😁

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17 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I personally don't use these rules but Inscribing Spells : For each point of POW you have a focus for one unique spell with strength+1, range+1, or duration +1 without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer (no need for runes or extra).

I remember looking, but not finding, explicit reference in the rules that Sorcerous Inscriptions were reusable in the same way as Enchantments. Is that made clear anywhere? 

The Munchkin context: 500 clan members could chip in a point of POW to create an Inscription for Enhance Int 100 with a few years of duration... Then cast on each of the clan members. 

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The enchanter, who must know the 
spell, must sacrifice 1 point of POW to create the inscription. 
For each point of POW added to the inscription, the base strength, range, or duration of the spell is increased by 1, without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer. This enables the sorcerer to create spells with a greater intensity than their Free INT would allow.Once inscribed, the sorcerer may cast the spell at their normal skill in that spell. Only the sorcerer may use the inscribed item to cast the spell.

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48 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

The Munchkin context: 500 clan members could chip in a point of POW to create an Inscription for Enhance Int 100 with a few years of duration... Then cast on each of the clan members.

My understanding is that Inscription doesn't equal enchantment, but just looks similar because it's a funky magic item which you sacrifice POW to create. For example, there's no "Create Inscription" spell. So the others add POW rule wouldn't apply.

Of course, if I'm wrong, there are.... implications. Terrifying implications.

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2 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

I don't recall any indication that is correct for the POW gain from defeating Disease Spirits. The only word I recall from the rules is "immediate."

I don't recall things... I check them ! And sorry pal but you've go all it wrong !

First, The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW" ...and gain POW as if "a POW gain roll had been made." So you CANNOT gain an infinite amount of power from a tiny spirit ! (a bit commun sense man) ! 🧐

Second, As you go hunting don't forget that as you fight you'll lose some MP and you nor your fetch can regenerate MP if discorporate. You also have to sacrifice POW to give to your fetch and as the rule state "A characteristic cannot be increased beyond the species maximum, however, and any points in excess are lost.". Hunting POW for you fetch mean you will have to found a rare spirit and the fight it without having your max POW... you won't die from AGEING but from Chronics diseases or being possessed by a spirit disease 😜😈

Third, do you really think that enchantments and spirits abilities are a decoration ? Why need  them if anyone can have a hundreds power-points fetch !? If you want to fight 300 POW Spirit disease go to Dorastor and good luck becoming the best friend of a Shaman Broo of Malia (beware of the night, they do nasty things 😱)

 

Go back studies your rules and do never forget the malediction of the Bestiairy "May Hykim and Mikyh Consume and Devour those that would misuse this book."

 

PS : I feel like being the old Rosen McStern : "Rules are RULES ! You don't have the rules references go back to your lair little mongrel" Clearly remembering him pesting me but DURA LEX ES LEX !!!

edit : very bad mispell (underscored word), one last but very nasty word ... "Critical hit on the teeth, call for the little mouse pal ! " 😬🤐

Edited by MJ Sadique

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2 hours ago, Crel said:

My understanding is that Inscription doesn't equal enchantment, but just looks similar because it's a funky magic item which you sacrifice POW to create. For example, there's no "Create Inscription" spell. So the others add POW rule wouldn't apply.

Same. No group inscriptions, they are creator-only.

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2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Same. No group inscriptions, they are creator-only.

This seems to say differently, as well as imply that inscriptions function like normal enchantments aside from the restrictions.

Screenshot from 2020-07-07 16-50-07.png

Edited by Richard S.

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47 minutes ago, Richard S. said:
3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Same. No group inscriptions, they are creator-only.

This seems to say differently, as well as imply that inscriptions function like normal enchantments aside from the restrictions.

Screenshot from 2020-07-07 16-50-07.png

This does open the door to PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER level shenanigans in the Hero Wars. Argrath and the other Heroes end up pulling off some crazy stuff by bringing different magics together and being mega munchkins.

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19 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

This does open the door to PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER level shenanigans in the Hero Wars.

Not really or I rather said Not Only,

This simply confirm that sorcerers using the same grimoires and spells must regroup to create a place of power which give a vast source of power and protection. HRQ is mainly speaking about the power and magic in Kethaela+DragonPass and theirs neighbourhoods country so Sorcerers Schools are off-topic from the start !

19 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Argrath and the other Heroes end up pulling off some crazy stuff by bringing different magics together and being mega munchkins.

Argrath's Sartar Magical Union is the exact exemple of this. For the sorcerers part I could think Tosti Runefriends Company because they uses a ritual by drawing to create large magical effects. As some or their method date back to God learners, a lot of sorcery may be involved !!!

HOW ? Probably a spell version of Inscribing spell with 5pts base spell (as it is rare) and the cost of 1D10 MP instead of 1 POW. Such Ritual can only be used if all know how to Incribe a spell and also know the spell choosen as well for the casting. A bit similar to the circle of protection in RQ3 (not sure about the english name) which is useless unless it is combinate with another spell !

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On 7/8/2020 at 5:51 AM, Richard S. said:

This seems to say differently, as well as imply that inscriptions function like normal enchantments aside from the restrictions.

Screenshot from 2020-07-07 16-50-07.png

P390, in the sub-section on inscribing spells - "Only the sorcerer may use the inscribed item to cast the spell."

Pretty cut and dried, unless they're look I to change a very clear, specifically worded ruling.

 

As for getting people to "donate" the power, I'm sure there will be ways around it... Like an adjusted Drain Soul (Int x ? to make such a spell... Maybe only 1 season)

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On 7/7/2020 at 5:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

edit : very bad mispell (underscored word), one last but very nasty word ... "Critical hit on the teeth, call for the little mouse pal ! " 😬🤐

Maybe you could have toned it down a bit as well. It comes across as aggressive and unpleasant.

 

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 I may getting a bit on fire...🤣

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Maybe you could have toned it down a bit as well. It comes across as aggressive and unpleasant.

😒 yeah, I know ... but I'm a bit in villain mood. Surely because I miss the old war like discussion with Rosen. Ah the Nostalgia of fighting over the rules for days and ... losing pitifully because some rules got a triple Errata : An Errata of Errata of Errata. I miss the 90'...

😈 Could have tone it down : no, I can't... I just can't be ???         !? What was the opposite word for being bad, ugly and sadic ? Niké, Nike or Mice. Can't remember !

😇 Aggressive : NO and I'm doing this for is own good because everyone will learn more in hardcore mode than a little pony discussion. Being friendly does not mean being nice all the time, when you want the others to progress, you need the to be more that what they are today. You don't take time for the pleasure to break people dreams (not only) but also to help them and guide them in this world of Glorantha a world of antic heroes no Superman (Lunar red-son of Krypt-moon), no Captain indestructible Shield (Who let him stole the Adamant shield of Arran) but a world of simple heroe like some Orlanthi who can throw his spear, jump on it and fly throw the sky; or a Yelm's son who can ask his sun-father-in the-sky to orbital blast you with the celestial fire...

🤡 Unpleasant : 300%  yes ! I don't hate (D&D) players but sadly a lot of them have create the "Munchkin without brains" --the French RPG Magazine Casus Belli call (with humour) such players a GrosBill : "the brain of a canari with the firepower of a Nuclear Aircraft-Carrier"--. I like having player finding way to be some Munchkins but doing it with Intelligence, without cheating and certainly not the "I think I read somewhere in the rule if I spend 3POW to hum-hack-the-rules I can get a Runic Sword +20/+20 vs undead, and as living being are not dead, I can oneshot kill a dragon with it 😁". NooooOO ! NOT UNDER MY WATCH !!!!!!!

🙄 Did I give some slap, yes. Did I get better with them : clearly. Did everyone need them : no. I am feeling guilty of anything : NEVER IN MY LIFE !

 

🧐 Throwing some munchkin card from another post.

On 7/5/2020 at 11:43 AM, MJ Sadique said:

 If your are very nasty, you can call for Fire-Wolvy : a not very know Chaman of the Wolverine tribe (tribe mentionned in hero wars), make him draw three Bone-claws in each hands and then Spell Barage : Double fireblade x3 (9D6 per hands, 18D6). As usual don't explain the spell used but ony ask your players for some extra D6 to borrow because you don't have all the dices you need 😈 

  Having three tables knives in one hand and triple Fireblade... Within the rules or Not ? 🙄

 

Secret PS : You want to be a munchkin, I will be the first to help you But a Rosen was the Judge Dredd of the Rules, I may be the Punisher of the rules and my motto is "Not under my watch !".

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3 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

   Having three tables knives in one hand and triple Fireblade... Within the rules or Not ? 🙄cret PS : You want to be a munchkin, I will be the first to help you But a Rosen was the Judge Dredd of the Rules, I may be the Punisher of the rules and my motto is "Not under my watch !".

I like the way you think.

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8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:
15 hours ago, soltakss said:

Maybe you could have toned it down a bit as well. It comes across as aggressive and unpleasant.

😒 yeah, I know ... but I'm a bit in villain mood. Surely because I miss the old war like discussion with Rosen. Ah the Nostalgia of fighting over the rules for days and ... losing pitifully because some rules got a triple Errata : An Errata of Errata of Errata. I miss the 90'...

My sincerest apologies @MJ Sadique. I had chosen not to respond out of concern that that you were one of the younger posters on the forum; one on whom the nuances of careful and polite counter-argument might be wasted. I was also concerned that the excessive desire to be seen to be right could hint at a fragility that was best left unchallenged. I was wrong and I apologise.  Now I understand that you were in fact just adopting a persona in order enjoy the nostalgia for those heady days of futile disagreement. Yes, I too was that obnoxious persona (knocking around the UK fanzine world in the 80's).  Let us continue in that nostalgic vein, with no offence taken on either side, or on our behalf!

So. You reproach my (admittedly totally invalid) proposition for Munchkinning up a Super-Shaman of Death in 22 days with five Objections. There is also much supporting, mulitcoloured, (and emojied) self-congratulation with no direct bearing on the discussion, but I will concentrate on the content of your argument and dismiss the extraneous embellishments as either a misguided attempt to bully a newbie who dared to disagree with you, or to give the casual reader the impression that you were winning a rules discussion you hadn't even understood. 

Objection 1

My claim that the POW increase from defeating a Disease Spririt was 1D3 is incorrect.

On 7/7/2020 at 5:20 PM, Nick Underwood said:

No sure about this cheat but usual Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1

Except, the POW increase from defeating a Disease Spririt is 1D3, as you yourself cite!

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW"

Let us gloss over the indecorum of failing to acknowledge that your contradiction of a poster was mistaken—brooding over such a point wouldn't be in keeping with the fun characters we have chosen to play.

Objection 2

My timeline for increasing the POW of the fetch through capturing the POW of Disease Spirits is untenable, as POW Gains are limited to one per season.

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Increasing POW Through Spirit Combat is 1D3-1 (Average of 1pt) and limited to 1 gain per season

You may be confusing the POW gain from defeating a Disease Spirit with a standard POW Gain roll. 

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

I'm pretty sure we did not read the same rules (RQG p418)... 

You clearly are getting confused with standard POW Gain rolls as that is what p. 418 deals with. The correct references for POW gains from combatting Disease Spirits are RQGB p. 169... Which I believe you know, because you later cited the page to me. (Of course, without mention of your earlier mistake... Oh, what fun to discuss like we are juveniles again! )

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

I don't recall things... I check them ! And sorry pal but you've go all it wrong !

Oh the irony, pal!

It's good that we can call each other "pal". But do look up it's cultural connotations before you get yourself into bother in a London bar.

Objection 3

My assumption that... Actually, I have no idea what this objection is. It's either a total non sequitur, or it is two points conjoined and compressed beyond recognition. 

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

First, The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW" ...and gain POW as if "a POW gain roll had been made." So you CANNOT gain an infinite amount of power from a tiny spirit ! (a bit commun sense man) ! 🧐

You may be saying 'The rule clearly state in Bestiary / Spirits / Spirit Powers that you "will steal 1D3 POW" ...and gain POW as if "a POW gain roll had been made."' So... the normal rules of POW Gain rolls should be applied. I'd respond: as if "a POW gain roll had been made." That is: successfully completed. The conditions under which the roll were made do not apply in this case. (And I'd be right.)

Alternatively, you may be saying 'something, something, something, "So  you CANNOT gain an infinite amount of power from a tiny spirit !" To which I'd reply: you are ABSOLUTELY right! But let's not resort to the dishonesty of attributing some false claim to a poster for the purpose of flambouyantly demolishing it (with added exhortations and emojis). I was reasonably clear to anyone interested in understanding the Munchkinnery I was proposing:

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Discorporate, find Disease Sprit, defeat Disease Spirit, Gain 1D3 POW, capture Disease Spirit in Fetch, command Disease Spirit to attack Shaman, defeat Disease Spirit, gain 1D3 POW... Repeat... (for 16 POW per day?)

You can get an average of 16 POW from a Disease Sprit by capturing, commanding, defeating it until it is all used up! The next day you need to Discorporate, find another Disease Spirit and start again.

Objection 4

Discorporation with the intention to increase shaman POW requires the shaman to be below maximum POW when entering spirit combat with the Disease Spirit.

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Second, As you go hunting don't forget that as you fight you'll lose some MP and you nor your fetch can regenerate MP if discorporate. You also have to sacrifice POW to give to your fetch and as the rule state "A characteristic cannot be increased beyond the species maximum, however, and any points in excess are lost.". Hunting POW for you fetch mean you will have to found a rare spirit and the fight it without having your max POW... you won't die from AGEING but from Chronics diseases or being possessed by a spirit disease 😜😈

An absolutely valid point. (Don't be afraid to say it!) 18 POW would be optimal to capture (up to) an additional 3 POW.  I did point out that it needs some lucky dice. I didn't point out, for reasons of brevity, that there are better ways of capturing Disease Spirits, and you clearly don't need to challenge the big ones!

Objection 5

My described process requires continuous Discorporation throughout.

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

in your case OF EXTREME AGEING when he get back to his body 120 years after his first discorporation...

No it doesn't. Discoporation is only required to capture the Disease Spirit once per day. After capture you can slowly digest the remainder of the Disease Spirit from the comfort of your barn in the mundane plane.

Objection Whatever...

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Third, do you really think that enchantments and spirits abilities are a decoration ? Why need  them if anyone can have a hundreds power-points fetch !? If you want to fight 300 POW Spirit disease go to Dorastor and good luck becoming the best friend of a Shaman Broo of Malia (beware of the night, they do nasty things 😱)

Hmm... You're not even raising a praticality. You're saying it is not in the sprit of the game. That's not really a pertinent objection in a thread about the fun process of finding exploitations that the rules allow - but no-one would want in their game.  I guess it might be relevant if I had said something to suggest that I was a "GrosBill" who came up with a Super-Shaman of Death with fantasies of domineering people in a table top game. But... unfortunately that's no more than another assumption you labellled me with.

And as for sharing some good old nostlagic fun, here are some of my favourites. Oh, you do this sooo much better than me!

On 7/6/2020 at 11:06 PM, MJ Sadique said:

A MUNCHKIN who doesn't know the rules of the world he live usually DIE

 

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Go back studies your rules and do never forget the malediction of the Bestiairy "May Hykim and Mikyh Consume and Devour those that would misuse this book."

 

On 7/7/2020 at 6:45 PM, MJ Sadique said:

"Critical hit on the teeth, call for the little mouse pal ! " 😬🤐

 

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

NO and I'm doing this for (h)is own good because everyone will learn more in hardcore mode than a little pony discussion.

 

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

I like having player finding way to be some Munchkins but doing it with Intelligence, without cheating and certainly not the "I think I read somewhere in the rule if I spend 3POW to hum-hack-the-rules I can get a Runic

 

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Did I give some slap, yes.

 

8 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Did I get better with them : clearly.

I clearly had a lot to learn from the Maître. Thank you, for all you have taught me.

So it's been great sharing the nostalgia. But it reminds of just how poor and unrewarding discussions used to be when we were young and foolish enough to think that winning an argument was more important than learning from each other. Let's resolve to continue our conversations in a more constructive way in future. :)

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  I love this kind of answer ! I'm a bit sad I cannot give him a Lama badge (token of appreciation on DeviantArt).

👍👍👍 For Nick, I'm laughing too hard to response today !     a but a splendid counter ! 🤣

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1 hour ago, MJ Sadique said:

I love this kind of answer ! I'm a bit sad I cannot give him a Lama badge (token of appreciation on DeviantArt).

👍👍👍 For Nick, I'm laughing too hard to response today !     a but a splendid counter ! 🤣

Nick Underwood and MJ Sadique walk off into the sunset with arms around shoulders, the sounds of their laughter and joyuful converation echoing through the village « Mais qu'est-ce qu’on s’est bien marrer, hein ? Ta riposte la, mais bluffant ! Tu m'as completement cassé ! D’où tu sors des trucs pareils ? Dis… on prend un verre… ? »

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15 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

18 POW would be optimal to capture (up to) an additional 3 POW. 

Except... Wouldn't the munchkin shaman take a few levels of Soul Expansion, knowing they're going to use this exploit in the future... 

At least up to POW 24... Maybe a few points higher (obviously, using Pow as the burn stat)

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... Wouldn't the munchkin shaman take a few levels of Soul Expansion, knowing they're going to use this exploit in the future... 

At least up to POW 24... Maybe a few points higher (obviously, using Pow as the burn stat)

There would defintely be some possibillities for optimisation, that would make Super Shaman less dependent on lucky dice! :) 

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3 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

There would defintely be some possibillities for optimisation, 

Hm let me meditate™ on that. Nah, that would take too much time. Instead I will read this egregiously wonderful topic again, like a good little munchkin (now where did I put that note pad)...

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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