Egregious munchkinnery!

[Kloster]

17 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

No, voluntary is of ones own free will. Magical domination is not what. Even more, I would argue that which ever cult you try with, spirits of reprisal would be soon follow. At the very least, once the spirit becomes a Lay Member the shrine defenses would most likely register the dominating person as an enemy.

I completely agree. I would not accept the use of dominate to give MP or POW: I would not be voluntary. What I explained is that you can try to convince the spirit to do it, while it is dominated, but not using the dominate. This is why I spoke of role playing opportunities.

[HreshtIronBorne]

In a totally non-munchkin way I can see sorcerers or logical LM types using Legalese and jargon to convince a spirit to do a thing or help in some magical endeavor as totally reasonable. Even if they were brought rhere through a summons or made to listen through a domination. Some spirits are smart enough to understand Logic. The equivalent of trying to bargain things out of spirits as a shaman, sorta. 

[Kloster]

11 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

In a totally non-munchkin way I can see sorcerers or logical LM types using Legalese and jargon to convince a spirit to do a thing or help in some magical endeavor as totally reasonable. Even if they were brought rhere through a summons or made to listen through a domination. Some spirits are smart enough to understand Logic. The equivalent of trying to bargain things out of spirits as a shaman, sorta. 

Exactly my point.

[Kloster]

18 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

In a totally non-munchkin way I can see sorcerers or logical LM types using Legalese and jargon to convince a spirit to do a thing or help in some magical endeavor as totally reasonable. Even if they were brought rhere through a summons or made to listen through a domination. Some spirits are smart enough to understand Logic. The equivalent of trying to bargain things out of spirits as a shaman, sorta. 

In fact, I don't find this munchkin, and I think spirits can be perfect lay members. The (egregious?) munchkin use of this trick would be:

- Finding and summoning a 18 CHA spirit, and binding him to a matrix.

- Convincing him to become lay member of a cult (let's say Lhankor Mhy).

- Having him learn 18 points of Spirit Magic.

While bound to the matrix, you can freely use the 18 points of spells known by the spirit and his MP. If not a sorceror, the character has now 18 extra CHA to store spells. If a sorceror, he has 18 points of Spirit Magic spells without lowering his free INT.

[Shiningbrow]

Why not simply bind a cult spirit?

It'd have the added benefit from f being an initiate from the start...

(I presume that that's actually one of the major uses of cult spirits... And the binding is less about control, and more about constant physical presence. After all, it's not a problem with elementals.)

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

12 hours ago, Godlearner said:

And that's the key.

Yeah, but the point of this thread isn't what you would actually like to do in play or what you expect to get away with with your GM – it's exploring the reach of the rules.

As a Player you present an argument that "according to the rules I can do this", then your GM is forced to agree with it or to shoot it down in flames, at which point you can complain bitterly about unfair GMing decisions.

This thread simply helps you to come up with the convincing argument in the first place.

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why not simply bind a cult spirit?

It'd have the added benefit from f being an initiate from the start...

(I presume that that's actually one of the major uses of cult spirits... And the binding is less about control, and more about constant physical presence. After all, it's not a problem with elementals.)

I am not sure Cult Spirits are initiated, but if they are, yes, of course, very good point.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Kloster said:

I am not sure Cult Spirits are initiated, but if they are, yes, of course, very good point.

Allied Spirits are, so it makes sense that at least some cult spirits are initiated.

[Kloster]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Allied Spirits are, so it makes sense that at least some cult spirits are initiated.

Sure, but in that case, it becomes the quest for the right initiated spirit. Of course, the spirit being already initiated, the rest is much easier to munchkinize.

[Joerg]

So, are elementals initiated? And will they donate POW? Do you have to summon them in order for them to worship, or do they show up anyway (like that storm of subservient spirits observed by Biturian at Pairing Stones)?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

So, are elementals initiated? And will they donate POW? Do you have to summon them in order for them to worship, or do they show up anyway (like that storm of subservient spirits observed by Biturian at Pairing Stones)?

I completely support the idea of various Umbroli and the like turning up for Orlanth worship at temples, just as your Allied Spirits actually need to participate in order to both fulfil cult requirements and to regain Rune Points. 

Although the "regular" (S/M/L) elementals seem to be pretty close to mindless, and likely don't qualify. They might still be "inherent nature" lay members.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:27 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

With the latest ruling from the Rules Questions Thread spells can be defensively boosted with MP. Which adds a whole layer of complexity to determining and dismantling magical defenses. Instead of a Humakti with 100 MP in storage casting one bonkers Sword Trance he is in fact incentivised to spend at least a handful of MP to bolster each spell. I would spend 10(5 RP worth) or 12(RP worth) per spell to beef them up to withstand Dispel 8s or Dismiss 4s. This eats up large chunks of resources rather quickly but, it doesn ensure that one spell stays up. 

 

I alao think this is sort of self balancing, someone brought up in another thread that a year long Extension of Shield 13 with a buttload of MP for dispel resist is amazing and almost impossible for an individual opponent to deal with. It ALSO basically remove your ability to be healed fast enough to not die or lose a limb, or maybe even be healed at all.

Hadn't read this thread in a while, but while browsing I saw this post. Powerful Shield spells pumped full of mps are p. much impossible to dispel, but they don't make the characters immortal. In my campaign a pc Sword of Humakt who had both Shield and Sword Trance on, was hit by a critical arrow, and would have died if his allied spirit hadn't succeeded in a divine intervention with its last rp by rolling 01. If your players routinely use powerful spells, and you want to keep the combat exciting, make the antagonists use missile weapons and tactics. Then even bandits/militia/trollkins can be challenging opponents for Rune Lords.

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, are elementals initiated? And will they donate POW? Do you have to summon them in order for them to worship, or do they show up anyway (like that storm of subservient spirits observed by Biturian at Pairing Stones)?

Wouldn't the elementals technically be parts of the elemental gods? They wouldn't worship themselves, but they would be drawn to where Air/Earth etc. are worshipped.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

Hadn't read this thread in a while, but while browsing I saw this post. Powerful Shield spells pumped full of mps are p. much impossible to dispel, but they don't make the characters immortal. In my campaign a pc Sword of Humakt who had both Shield and Sword Trance on, was hit by a critical arrow, and would have died if his allied spirit hadn't succeeded in a divine intervention with its last rp by rolling 01. If your players routinely use powerful spells, and you want to keep the combat exciting, make the antagonists use missile weapons and tactics. Then even bandits/militia/trollkins can be challenging opponents for Rune Lords.

It’s going to be a long fight if you depend on enemies critting in order to have any effect, especially since it’s only going to be on 01 in melee...

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, are elementals initiated? And will they donate POW? Do you have to summon them in order for them to worship, or do they show up anyway (like that storm of subservient spirits observed by Biturian at Pairing Stones)?

I don't think. They have no INT, so no free will.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Although the "regular" (S/M/L) elementals seem to be pretty close to mindless, and likely don't qualify. They might still be "inherent nature" lay members.

Agreed.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

As a Player you present an argument that "according to the rules I can do this", then your GM is forced to agree with it or to shoot it down in flames, at which point you can complain bitterly about unfair GMing decisions.

This thread simply helps you to come up with the convincing argument in the first place.

the rules allow GM to put in front of your pc the crimson bat. that is a better convincing argument to not read this thread

 

about spirit and mp sacrifice.

I m not sure that spirit can "change" their loyalty ? I would say the "change" is only possible for people who change themselves (ak those who can die)

That could explain why "ancestor" communities are so conservative

In this case pc cannot convince a spirit to sacrifice to any entity (except those the spirit used to sacrifice)

 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, are elementals initiated? And will they donate POW? Do you have to summon them in order for them to worship, or do they show up anyway (like that storm of subservient spirits observed by Biturian at Pairing Stones)?

 

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I completely support the idea of various Umbroli and the like turning up for Orlanth worship at temples, just as your Allied Spirits actually need to participate in order to both fulfil cult requirements and to regain Rune Points. 

Bestiary p185 - Thunder Brothers (which can manifest as a large Umbroli) "The Thunder Brothers are also summoned by Storm Voices as cult spirits.... This is an example of a minor Thunder Brother that might be found as a temple guardian."

They have CHA full of spirit magic, as well as 4D6 Rune Magic from Orlanth Thunderous... thus implying Initiate status.

So, although it might be seen as a little bit rude, I don't think there's anything overtly wrong with having a minor Thunder Brother as a bound spirit (if you're in good enough standing with Orlanth). Presumably there are similar spirits for other (major) cults as well.

Similar could possibly be said for Wyter spirits.

 

ETA: I could see being rewarded with such a spirit as a good Heroquest reward...And if you make it to Rune Lord, this spirit could become your Allied Spirit.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Shiningbrow

[Dragon]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I completely support the idea of various Umbroli and the like turning up for Orlanth worship at temples, just as your Allied Spirits actually need to participate in order to both fulfil cult requirements and to regain Rune Points. 

Although the "regular" (S/M/L) elementals seem to be pretty close to mindless, and likely don't qualify. They might still be "inherent nature" lay members.

This seems to be in the spirit of the game. I recall in Snake Pipe Hollow that the broo Disease Master had inflated his temple to a larger size by getting the mass of mindless Disease Spirits to count as worshippers (they only have POW). So, Umbroli should likewise qualify. Note: I have the RQ2 and RQ3 versions of SPH, so YGMV.

[Brootse]

23 minutes ago, Dragon said:

This seems to be in the spirit of the game. I recall in Snake Pipe Hollow that the broo Disease Master had inflated his temple to a larger size by getting the mass of mindless Disease Spirits to count as worshippers (they only have POW). So, Umbroli should likewise qualify. Note: I have the RQ2 and RQ3 versions of SPH, so YGMV.

Official scenarios rarely have enough worshippers for the shrines and temples in them. The Snakepipe Hollow is a nice exception that has an explanation for it. So it's definitely in the spirit of the game to inflate the worshipper numbers with spirits and the like. Eg. elementals, former worshippers' souls, etc.

[Dragon]

Why are we worried about getting bound spirits to become lay members or initiates in order to learn new spirit magic spells?

This is a thread about munchkinnery! The much easier answer is in RQG: RiG. page 368. "Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may gain one of its spirit magic spells (player’s pick). If the spirit possesses a variable point spell, the adventurer may gain possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses."

If an adventurer can do it, anyone can. And every living being has a spirit. So just have the priest summon a cult spirit with the spell you want, command your bound spirit to engage in spirit combat (or with a priest who knows the spell) and defeat said spirit. You may need some buffing spells e.g. Spirit Screen, Spirit Block. If your priest doesn't agree, go talk to the local shaman about a spirit with the spell. An hour for a summons, a few rolls, and voila, your bound spirit learns the spell. Why bother with wasting a whole week?

I do note that the quote above and the context in that section is not specific about whether 'defeating' requires the spirit to be driven to 0 MP or simply to have one round where the learning spirit is a 'winner' and the defeated spirit is a 'loser'. I suspect it is the former, as it seems to be clarified in 'Reaching 0 Magic Points'. "Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may learn its magic, forcing it to teach them any spells it knows,..." That context is pretty clear that it is at 0 MP.

Which, of course, makes you wonder about the requirement that learning a spell from a priest requires a week. The week is supposed to involve teaching you how to cast the spell, and making foci. But if that was really necessary, then an adventurer who drove a spirit to 0 MP and gained possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses, could not actually USE said spell. It would take up CHA, but you couldn't cast it, because you didn't spend a whole week learning how and making foci.

 

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Why are we worried about getting bound spirits to become lay members or initiates in order to learn new spirit magic spells?

This is a thread about munchkinnery! The much easier answer is in RQG: RiG. page 368. "Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may gain one of its spirit magic spells (player’s pick). If the spirit possesses a variable point spell, the adventurer may gain possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses."

If an adventurer can do it, anyone can. And every living being has a spirit. So just have the priest summon a cult spirit with the spell you want, command your bound spirit to engage in spirit combat (or with a priest who knows the spell) and defeat said spirit. You may need some buffing spells e.g. Spirit Screen, Spirit Block. If your priest doesn't agree, go talk to the local shaman about a spirit with the spell. An hour for a summons, a few rolls, and voila, your bound spirit learns the spell. Why bother with wasting a whole week?

I do note that the quote above and the context in that section is not specific about whether 'defeating' requires the spirit to be driven to 0 MP or simply to have one round where the learning spirit is a 'winner' and the defeated spirit is a 'loser'. I suspect it is the former, as it seems to be clarified in 'Reaching 0 Magic Points'. "Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may learn its magic, forcing it to teach them any spells it knows,..." That context is pretty clear that it is at 0 MP.

Which, of course, makes you wonder about the requirement that learning a spell from a priest requires a week. The week is supposed to involve teaching you how to cast the spell, and making foci. But if that was really necessary, then an adventurer who drove a spirit to 0 MP and gained possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses, could not actually USE said spell. It would take up CHA, but you couldn't cast it, because you didn't spend a whole week learning how and making foci.

 

Yeah, I've wondered about the week too. RQ3's rules were much more logical.

[Dragon]

And we can magically learn 'certain spirit magic' during a holy day celebration. P253.

[Runeblogger]

7 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Which, of course, makes you wonder about the requirement that learning a spell from a priest requires a week. The week is supposed to involve teaching you how to cast the spell, and making foci. But if that was really necessary, then an adventurer who drove a spirit to 0 MP and gained possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses, could not actually USE said spell. It would take up CHA, but you couldn't cast it, because you didn't spend a whole week learning how and making foci.

Well, if we wanted to explain why it requires a full week, perhaps you can acquire the spell in an instant, but it takes a week to fully internalise that piece of a spirit you just melded into your own spirit in order to use it as a spell. Perhaps shamans need less time because they are more used to using their spirit in this way than theists. 

[Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Well, if we wanted to explain why it requires a full week, perhaps you can acquire the spell in an instant, but it takes a week to fully internalise that piece of a spirit you just melded into your own spirit in order to use it as a spell. Perhaps shamans need less time because they are more used to using their spirit in this way than theists. 

A GM can certainly make that narrative. Just not something that needs to be said in the munchkinnery thread. 🙂

[Brootse]

Maybe the priests are just lazy buggers and you have to serve in their household for a week.