Egregious munchkinnery!

[Austin]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

A) if you're a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer, then you join Orlanth and sacrifice the POW for the Flight

Is it really that easy to just up and initiate into an extra cult? I've not gotten that impression from the rulebook except in very specific cases, like Yinkin initiates joining Orlanth.

If joining a second cult is that simple, that opens up all sorts of shenanigans I've been disregarding!

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

Is it really that easy to just up and initiate into an extra cult? I've not gotten that impression from the rulebook except in very specific cases, like Yinkin initiates joining Orlanth.

If joining a second cult is that simple, that opens up all sorts of shenanigans I've been disregarding!

Not universally, but there should be a way for any of the Lightbringers to Initiate into any of the OTHER Lightbringers (IMHO, YGMV).

Except maybe Eurmal, who has a Special Relationship with Orlanth, and others might not accept him...

[Shiningbrow]

18 minutes ago, Crel said:

Is it really that easy to just up and initiate into an extra cult? I've not gotten that impression from the rulebook except in very specific cases, like Yinkin initiates joining Orlanth.

If joining a second cult is that simple, that opens up all sorts of shenanigans I've been disregarding!

Associated and friendly cults - yes (p274, and 275 - Membership in Multiple Cults)

(Edit: check out the personages in the Adventurer's book... lots of multi-cult membership. Perhaps most interesting is the Issaries/Yelmalio cultist)

Edited April 25, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[HreshtIronBorne]

Yeah, my go to example if Orlanth Thunderous and Odayla, in the PDF I have it says Odayla gives Orlanth Thunderous initiates the Bear's Strength spell, which in it's description states you have to be an odayla initiate to cast the spell on yourself. So, I assume most thunderous initiates do the Odayla thing for a maple trump card. Lol. Surprise Bear Orlanthi

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Yeah, my go to example if Orlanth Thunderous and Odayla, in the PDF I have it says Odayla gives Orlanth Thunderous initiates the Bear's Strength spell, which in it's description states you have to be an odayla initiate to cast the spell on yourself. So, I assume most thunderous initiates do the Odayla thing for a maple trump card. Lol. Surprise Bear Orlanthi

I read that more as a specific example of that spell (Bear's Strength) having an exception... ie, it should read "This spell can only be cast on Intitiates of Odayla or Orlanth Thunderous".

[Austin]

Munchkin follow-up: Can you get back RP for two cults in one worship service, if you're a member of one cult, and of one of its associate cults?

Ex an initiate of Lhankor Mhy and Orlanth worshipping Orlanth on a seasonal holy day succeeds on his Worship (Orlanth) roll, and gets 2D6 Orlanth RP back. He succeeds at his Worship (Lhankor Mhy) roll as well, and gains 1D6 Lhankor Mhy RP back as well.

[Bill the barbarian]

Might depend on the cults, I wonder how often holy days would occur together (more often of associated cults I am sure). Each set of RP and POW gain rolls would require worship rolls. Would each worship require active participation in only that cults rites. That could cause problems. I realize that this is not RAW but one always hopes (sometimes in vain) fot the reality  and the rules to agree_

Cheers

[Austin]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I wonder how often holy days would occur together (more often of associated cults I am sure).

They don't have to occur together. P.315, "With a successful Worship roll during an associated cult's high or seasonal holy day, initiates get 1D6 Rune points restored, and [Rune Masters] get 1D6+1 Rune points replenished." I assume, though, that it's the Worship skill associated with the initiate's own deity.

For the "reality" of it, I imagine this would be like playing LM's role in a reenactment of the Lightbringer's Quest on Orlanth's holy day. Though I guess with that understanding you could only act one role, and get one cult's RP back.

Still, it really emphasizes how strong a player choice it is to join a cult with many associated cults. Cults like Orlanth & Ernalda have many more opportunities to refill RP than smaller/less affiliated cults like Odayla or Humakt. 

[Shiningbrow]

47 minutes ago, Crel said:

They don't have to occur together. P.315, "With a successful Worship roll during an associated cult's high or seasonal holy day, initiates get 1D6 Rune points restored, and [Rune Masters] get 1D6+1 Rune points replenished." I assume, though, that it's the Worship skill associated with the initiate's own deity.

For the "reality" of it, I imagine this would be like playing LM's role in a reenactment of the Lightbringer's Quest on Orlanth's holy day. Though I guess with that understanding you could only act one role, and get one cult's RP back.

Still, it really emphasizes how strong a player choice it is to join a cult with many associated cults. Cults like Orlanth & Ernalda have many more opportunities to refill RP than smaller/less affiliated cults like Odayla or Humakt. 

You're thinking how I have been.. RAW, on an associate's holy day, if you go and worship (not sure who to, though), you'd get 1D6 (plus 1/votive image! Never forget those!!!)

So, if you're initiated into multiple cults, you should be getting lots back! IIRC, Ernalda has a holy day every week....(do they count as the 'seasonal' holy days??)

In theory, that should mean... for every cult that is associated with Ernalda that you've joined (which, I believe, is every Lightbringer deity), you should be getting back 1D6 RPs per cult.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

A) if you're a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer, then you join Orlanth and sacrifice the POW for the Flight;

Orlanth initiates cannot learn sorcery, sorry.

[Shiningbrow]

28 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Orlanth initiates cannot learn sorcery, sorry.

IIRC, this is the first iteration of RQ that has LM having sorcery available to them through the cult. So, is that prejudice going to remain canon in the upcoming GoG? (And that's without discussing Aeoliansim...)

 

(ETA: I fully understand, appreciate,and agree with the idea that "godless' sorcery wouldn't be allowed to Orlanth (or most other deities, for that matter), but Lhankor Mhy (and Chalana Arroy!) "sorcery" is given by their cult and cult leaders (and, possibly, their god). I write "sorcery" in quote marks, because while it's a convenient term for use to categorise it all under one term, perhaps they call it something different (and, given the different languages of Glorantha, that wouldn't surprise me one bit!).

Edited April 25, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[PhilHibbs]

26 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

IIRC, this is the first iteration of RQ that has LM having sorcery available to them through the cult. So, is that prejudice going to remain canon in the upcoming GoG? (And that's without discussing Aeoliansim...)

Apparently so. Aeolians will worship Orlanth, but not as "initiation". That term is reserved for theistic worship, and sorcery is usually prohibited. This came up on Facebook in the context of whether Orlanthi could cast Open Seas, and the answer is that they can't. Not that they need to any more...

[Shiningbrow]

11 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Apparently so. Aeolians will worship Orlanth, but not as "initiation". That term is reserved for theistic worship, and sorcery is usually prohibited. This came up on Facebook in the context of whether Orlanthi could cast Open Seas, and the answer is that they can't. Not that they need to any more...

I don't have FB... (haven't used it in so many years...).

Personally, as per my comment above, I'd understand Orlanth having a problem with the 'heathen' version of sorcery, but I'd think it'd make perfect sense for initiates of his good old buddy and pal LM to be an exception to his general rule.

And, of course Orlanthi can't Open Seas...  wouldn't mean LM initiates couldn't.

Anyway, slightly wasted discussion as the GoG hasn't come out yet.

If we're going to stick with this idea, then I can always change my A) above to, "sorcerer can summon and bind an Orlanthi cult spirit with Flight, and then command it to cast said spell... (new argument ensues about how much deities care about such things...)

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

Is it really that easy to just up and initiate into an extra cult? I've not gotten that impression from the rulebook except in very specific cases, like Yinkin initiates joining Orlanth.

If joining a second cult is that simple, that opens up all sorts of shenanigans I've been disregarding!

Yes, it is easy (RQG p 275): Cults have to be compatible (i.e. Friendly or Associated) and you have to comply to duties, tithing and restrictions to both cults. Rune points pools are separated.. It is not explained if a character can be initiated of 2 cults at creation time and what would be the rules.

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If we're going to stick with this idea, then I can always change my A) above to, "sorcerer can summon and bind an Orlanthi cult spirit with Flight, and then command it to cast said spell... (new argument ensues about how much deities care about such things...)

And once it's cast it a couple of times, how is it going to replenish its Rune Points? If it has 7 RP then you could make it cast Flight 2 extended to a year.

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

Is it reasonable to assume an initiate of Issaries could be a sorcerer? Because they get Flight through Orlanth Adventurous as an associated cult, thus getting a flying sorcerer on the current rules.

Yes, according to Jeff, Issaries initiates can be sorcerors. Good munchkin technique.

[Shiningbrow]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

And once it's cast it a couple of times, how is it going to replenish its Rune Points? If it has 7 RP then you could make it cast Flight 2 extended to a year.

Sorry - I"m just tacking on my bits about "how to get a triceratops as your pet" line of thought...

[Austin]

8 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Yes, according to Jeff, Issaries initiates can be sorcerors. Good munchkin technique.

IIIIIINTERESTING.

Gonna go do some math and reading. Any other cults confirmed to have sorcery permissions?

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

IIIIIINTERESTING.

Gonna go do some math and reading. Any other cults confirmed to have sorcery permissions?

Chalana Arroy (given that it has "prohibited sorcery" spells)

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sorry - I"m just tacking on my bits about "how to get a triceratops as your pet" line of thought...

If the shapechanging sorcery still is available, why not buy a rhino calf and turn that into the triceratops. At similar age, a triceratops hatchling and a rhino calf have similar size. No idea whether the growth pattern will adjust for the new shape, though, or whether changing the shape of a non-adult freezes the target in its development, creating a neotenic specimen.

Otherwise, placing a set of illusions on a rhino will have a similar result.

A real munchkin would go for a sky bull, a giant vrok hawk, a wyvern, a griffin or a hippogriff for a pet (if not already playing a wind child covered in an inch of woad). Why spend magic on something as trivial as flight? You'd still trade for that flight runespell or a bound sylph to have a parachute, though.

[Kloster]

19 minutes ago, Crel said:

IIIIIINTERESTING.

Gonna go do some math and reading. Any other cults confirmed to have sorcery permissions?

Jeff's current list is: "Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal and many others". We have to wait for the cult book to get the rest of the list, even if we know that Malkion (of course) and probably Seven Mothers (and other lunar cults) are in.

[Shiningbrow]

13 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Jeff's current list is: "Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal and many others". We have to wait for the cult book to get the rest of the list, even if we know that Malkion (of course) and probably Seven Mothers (and other lunar cults) are in.

I wonder if these are merely "permissions", or actually something the cult is willing to teach. LM and CA (in a previous version) definitely teach sorcery. Eurmal - who knows what he thinks 😛

And, leaves us still with "what about joining associate cults?" For Orlanth, that would mean "you can join associate cults - but just not half of the other Lightbringers... if you're doing my no-no".

Reiterating what I said above - no sorcery from heathen sources. "Theistic" sorcery (other name would be used) is ok... (but, obviously, that's my Glorantha)

[metcalph]

12 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Jeff's current list is: "Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal and many others". We have to wait for the cult book to get the rest of the list, even if we know that Malkion (of course) and probably Seven Mothers (and other lunar cults) are in.

My guess:

Buserian - since it's Lhankor Mhy under a different name

Zorak Zoran - coz Arkat.

Pavis

Vivamort

 

 

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Jeff's current list is: "Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal and many others". We have to wait for the cult book to get the rest of the list, even if we know that Malkion (of course) and probably Seven Mothers (and other lunar cults) are in.

This thread is about munchkinnery, so the correct answer is: "Any cult which doesn't explicitely prohibit sorcery".

For a quick positive list, every cult that had strong active God Learner involvement, expanding to Wachaza, Worlath (a fine but significant distinction), Humct...

 

[Austin]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This thread is about munchkinnery, so the correct answer is: "Any cult which doesn't explicitely prohibit sorcery".

However p.275, "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers." Hence my reluctance to assume beyond LM and CA, and almost certainly the traditions-breaking Seven Mothers. Love me some min-maxing munchkinnery, but also want to be as rules-tight as possible, even when my memory and greedy nature gets the better of me.