Egregious munchkinnery!

[Kloster]

52 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My guess:

Buserian - since it's Lhankor Mhy under a different name

Zorak Zoran - coz Arkat.

Pavis

Vivamort

Shame on me, I forgot Arkat in the obvious list. I think your guess list is a good one, and we have to add Mostal.

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This thread is about munchkinnery, so the correct answer is: "Any cult which doesn't explicitely prohibit sorcery".

In fact, in the rules themselves, none forbids. This is in this forum that I found Jeff's answers about cults and sorcery. He explicitly told that Orlanth does not allow. Too bad for me, I had created an orlanthi Aeolian philosopher that I had to redo to comply.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

In fact, in the rules themselves, none forbids. This is in this forum that I found Jeff's answers about cults and sorcery. He explicitly told that Orlanth does not allow. Too bad for me, I had created an orlanthi Aeolian philosopher that I had to redo to comply.

For the Aeolians, there probably is a Worlath-like solution with a watered-down version of Orlanth that does allow some sorcery (possibly a "cult of Aeol," however much I hate that derivative of the Greek adjective for wind - there is no "cult of Styg" in Ralios, either, despite there being various forms of the Stygian college of magic, they have the sense to be cults of Arkat), but that's speculative until we see at least a basic official write-up for the Esvulari or the Nochet Aeolians and their lesser urban diaspora occurrances in Kethaela and Kerofinela.

In case you might have to ask "Worlath what?", Worlath appears to be one of the older names for Orlanth somewhere in the neighborhood of Seshnela, and that name and aspects of its original cult appear to have ended up in Umathela, where one of the universities sponsored a Cult of Worlath in their backyard, along with one of Humct (same deal for Humakt) and one of Jogrampur (a completely made up deity). Their control over the cult was a lot less than they thought, especially when all three of these cults provided working divine magic to their cultists when they rose in rebellion against those God Learner overlords.

There exists a document called "Prosopaedia", with the last officially published version going back to the publication of RuneQuest 3 Gods of Glorantha. Back then it was a 20 page leaflet with roundabout 60-100 deity names with assorted pantheon affiliations, short descriptions of the core myths and depictions. Around the time the Guide came out, there was an expanded version of that document with well over 200 names of deities included which may have been lying about at some convention (like e.g. Gencon) for privileged access.

What I knew about Worlath came from that RQ3 document when I started thinking about the Aeolians. Given the very limited soures available to me in 1994, my first attempt at writing up these henotheists ended up mistaking quite a few clues in those sources, but I didn't get everything wrong. Subsequent explorations of the Aeolians made their own non-canonical choices interpreting the growing canonical information we received. All of these were playable, though, and you shouldn't let a declaration like that dismantle your character concept completely. At the very least, steal the "One Unique Thing" from 13th Age (and 13th Age Glorantha) for your character, and spend it on this concept. After all, however close you strive to stick to canon, your Glorantha will vary. Chaosium house campaigns do.

 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

This thread is about munchkinnery, so the correct answer is: "Any cult which doesn't explicitely prohibit sorcery".

 

7 hours ago, Crel said:

However p.275, "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers."

The munchkin response would then be "but, I'm not a full sorcerer.. As an assistant shaman hasn't got a fetch yet, and so could join, my sorcery student doesn't have a familiar yet. Thus..."

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

Jeff's current list is: "Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal and many others". We have to wait for the cult book to get the rest of the list, even if we know that Malkion (of course) and probably Seven Mothers (and other lunar cults) are in.

Just thinking about this on the way into town...

Of the seven Lightbringers... two are somewhat unknown or not worshipped now (Ginna Jar and Mortal Flesh), leaving 5. Of those 5 Lightbringers (who were major characters), only 1 has a problem with sorcery! And, ironically enough, it's the dude who tells us "No-one can tell you what to do" 😛 

[Crel]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

If the shapechanging sorcery still is available, why not buy a rhino calf and turn that into the triceratops.

Unfortunately, this magic is not present in the new edition. Given the level of copy-paste I presume we'll get something similar when sorcery's actually developed.

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

Jeff's current list is: "Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal and many others". We have to wait for the cult book to get the rest of the list, even if we know that Malkion (of course) and probably Seven Mothers (and other lunar cults) are in.

SO I'VE BEEN READING. And I'd not say I'm certain what the best options are, but at this stage I do have some thoughts. Currently, I'm focusing on what choices seem optimal at adventurer creation and shortly after, since I feel it's unlikely any games have gone long enough to develop high-complexity play--meaning having developed sorcery-using adventurers who've nearly filled out their Rune/Technique choices, learned 10+ spells, and so on, shamans with a large amount of powers, Rune Priests with their CHA full of RP, and have climbed temple hierarchy, etc.

I think an Eurmali Philosopher might be the strongest start-of-play combination for a sorcerer. Plus, there's some elements which just tickle the roleplay side of me, and I'd personally enjoy trying out. In all of the ideas and combinations I've considered, the best Rune choices are probably Moon and then Fire/Sky--yes, you want more POW than INT because in these combo-builds you can sacrifice POW for RP, Inscriptions, and most importantly for casting Magic Point Enchantment. For the Eurmal sorcerer, you want Illusion high and the rest of your Runes don't really matter.

Additionally, for each adventurer I've contemplated, I think the Philosopher sorcery choices remain the same. There's a lot more variability if you're a Lhankor Mhy initiate, naturally, You get one Rune, one Technique, and three spells. Choosing the Water Rune gets you Fire/Sky and Air as its minor Runes, and choosing the Tap technique gets you all of the techniques implicitly. For spells, the best combination is Enhance INT (Fire/Sky, Summon), Magic Point Enchantment (Magic, Command) and Steal Breath (Air, Tap). This combination allows one to both generate and maintain large amounts of MP, and to refill your large MP stores all you need is 5 MP (4 to cast a double-costed Steal Breath, and one to remain conscious). You do need a reasonably high INT still, but can sort-of operate on the 13-INT minimum to learn one Rune and one Technique, then start boosting with Enhance INT from there.

The biggest challenge here is that Steal Breath is an active spell. According to p.247, you can cast other spells while an active spell is up, but you must make an INTx3 roll for the active spell to continue. On my reading, this does mean that you can acquire large amounts of MP with Steal Breath--above what you can store--and then cast a nice fat Enhance INT, and repeat castings of the two spells back and forth until satisfied; occasionally, the Steal Breath will even persist, but you can't count on that.

After that, we're looking at what's available courtesy of cult options to abuse massive amounts of MP. The Eurmal Cult's choices are fairly good in this regard; if you expect your POW to remain high-ish after character creation (say, 13-15+?) then Disruption is excellent. Other buffing spells are good, particularly Strength, Protection, and Countermagic (all of which you can get through associated cults). You don't really want your full five points because that will limit your Free INT, and you need to ensure you have enough Free INT to at least start an Enhance INT ramp. For common Rune spells, Eurmal only offers Divination, Extension, and Multispell. The big one here's Multispell. In my eyes, the best use of enormous amounts of MP for a starting adventuring sorcerer probably isn't attempting some big sorcery spell, but rather to sac POW to build up a few points of Extension and Multispell both, then to cast mass buffs quickly and simultaneously, or to shotgun down foes with Disruption. This strategy is horribly expensive MP-wise--but you should have plenty to spare. The real challenge is that if you're sacrificing POW for MP Enchant as well as additional RP, it's quite difficult for a thrown Disruption or mass Befuddle to reliably affect the foe. If you have the POW to pull it off, remember that Multispell'd spirit magic activates on DEX SR + MP in the highest cost spell, not the total MP. So in magical Christmasland where you have Multispell 5, you can Befuddle six guys on DEX SR + 2! Cast Steal Breath after every fight, and be ready for the next round whether you're buffing, debuffing, or blasting.

Don't forget you can augment with your high Moon Rune in order to get a bonus to your rolls overcoming enemy POW, or for your casting percentages.

Another important flaw in the Eurmal build is that you don't get access to Heal Wound, unlike most cults. The Seven Mothers has a lot of similar utility in these aspects, and better common Rune magic, but as a starting character you have worse spirit magic access (at double cost), I prefer Eurmal in this build over Seven Mothers largely because I think the special Rune magic has greater potential, in addition to the possible cultural issues of following a Lunar cult.

The magic which really strikes my eye is Hallucinate. Given the Flight discussion earlier, I figure you can get that effect by casting Hallucinate 1 and save some RP in the process; there's no explicit rules for the strength of illusions, only what SIZ they make up, their MOV rate, and how much damage they deal, so this will require some amount of GM's discretion or interpretation. Additionally, if your GM allows, an Extension'd Invisibility or Reflection is quite strong. But, I'd say that RAW you only get one subcult special Rune spell at adventurer creation.

For extra munchkin points, claim the twelve points of Illusion Rune magic you get from Hallucinate are going to one point of Illusory Substance (1 SIZ, about 5kg) and eleven points of Illusory Motion to get an air elemental illusion carrying you around at MOV 11 since STR isn't specified in the spells and 5kg limit seems plenty reasonable for a person-sized volume of air.

The advantage of Issaries seems more long-term to me. You have greater access to a variety of magics, but not as many strong combinations for a starting adventurer. Arguably it has access to all of the above spirit magic spells through a combination of associated cults, but the Rune spells feel more specific and less "tight" to me. you can sacrifice for Flight, for instance, and for Analyze Magic, but those both rely on Rune ratings which might not have been notable at character creation. As an adventures-going, hack n' slash type of player, the Eurmal Rune magic choices are a lot more appealing.

Also I must confess that a Moon'd, Illusion'd sorcery-wielding Trickster just tickles the hell outta me.

I only really found one other possibly-viable method of abusing masses of MP. If it's a sorcery-permitting cult, Argan Argar has the spell Safe, which you can boost with MP, and which only costs 1RP to guard a passage or box. Set it up, blow a bunch of MP, breathe deeply, then go to sleep safe in the knowledge that no one can leave that cave for eight weeks without serious trouble.

Obviously things like Sword Trance and Oath are out there, but I avoided multi-adventurer combinations for the time being since Humakt seemed clearly like a no-fun-allowed god who won't let his initiates tinker with sorcery. In combination, you could hand your MP storage to a Humakt worshipper and let them go to town with an insanely high Trance (or any of the other Trance cults).

Oh, also worth noting that the Philospher occupation implies the Seven Mothers allows sorcery (surprise surprise) as it's listed as one of the cults. So we can add that to the book-confirmed Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy.

18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

The munchkin response would then be "but, I'm not a full sorcerer.. As an assistant shaman hasn't got a fetch yet, and so could join, my sorcery student doesn't have a familiar yet. Thus..."

Unfortunately it looks like there'll be a change from RQ3's familiars, since they use that to describe spirits bound into animals. But I like your petty distinction-making . Of course, surely a no-fun-allowed god like Orlanth will be awful grouchy if one of his initiates suddenly started having fun... What're his Spirits of Reprisal again?

[PhilHibbs]

40 minutes ago, Crel said:

Unfortunately, this magic is not present in the new edition. Given the level of copy-paste I presume we'll get something similar when sorcery's actually developed.

I don't see any evidence of RQ3 sorcery being copy-pasted, or any indication that that is likely to happen.

40 minutes ago, Crel said:

Also I must confess that a Moon'd, Illusion'd sorcery-wielding Trickster just tickles the hell outta me.

I'd love to play a crazy old firebug librarian trickster.

40 minutes ago, Crel said:

Unfortunately it looks like there'll be a change from RQ3's familiars, since they use that to describe spirits bound into animals.

Yep, pretty sure that RQ3 familiars are not coming back.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Oh, also worth noting that the Philospher occupation implies the Seven Mothers allows sorcery (surprise surprise) as it's listed as one of the cults. So we can add that to the book-confirmed Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy.

Well seen. I was only guessing, but this is written in the rules. I addition, considering the RQIII Troll pack/Troll gods, we can assume that most, if not all troll gods are at least tolerant versus sorcery. Arkat was teaching sorcery and Kyger Litor, Argan Argar and Zorak Zoran were clearly accepting. Others are probably neutral. Let's see if this has changed when the cult book or the new trollpack are out.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Quote

Also I must confess that a Moon'd, Illusion'd sorcery-wielding Trickster just tickles the hell outta me.

I'd love to play a crazy old firebug librarian trickster.

I suppose that would sort the mess in the library once and for all.

Crazy old firebug librarian trickster says,

"Heroquest my big fat hairy..."

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't see any evidence of RQ3 sorcery being copy-pasted, or any indication that that is likely to happen.

One area which looks decidedly not C&P.

 

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd love to play a crazy old firebug librarian trickster.

Isn't that called a sociopath?

 

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yep, pretty sure that RQ3 familiars are not coming back.

So, as per my (facetious) comment above - what's the distinction between "apprentice" and "journeyman" in sorcery? Will there be one? Or doesn't it matter? (or, is the actual distinction between basic student and apprentice who, I presume, will be apprentice-bonded? We shall see...)

Is Orlanth's issue with sorcery, or sorcerers? (in the same way that there are spirit magicians and shamans... which is hugely different. And lay members and initiates) By the looks of things, the issue is the type of magic itself, rather than the person casting it.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, as per my (facetious) comment above - what's the distinction between "apprentice" and "journeyman" in sorcery? Will there be one? Or doesn't it matter? (or, is the actual distinction between basic student and apprentice who, I presume, will be apprentice-bonded? We shall see...)

Is Orlanth's issue with sorcery, or sorcerers? (in the same way that there are spirit magicians and shamans... which is hugely different. And lay members and initiates) By the looks of things, the issue is the type of magic itself, rather than the person casting it.

My initial thinking (and this should not be an indication of what the rules actually will be)

There are two possible criteria: knowledge of a rune and/or technique OR knowledge of a sorcery spell.

Based on Jeff's comments about the Open Seas spell, it looks as though knowledge of sorcery spells is anathema.  

In practice, I don't think this distinction will matter too much as sorcery is really only effective if you cast Big Spells.  Otherwise you are better off learning the equivalent rune and spirit magic spells.

As to why Orlanth might have an issue with the knowledge of sorcery (which would extend even to Lhankoring Sorcery even though they are the best of friends).  Knowledge of Sorcery requires some degree of henosis, the unity of one's mind with the Invisible God (based on Real World Neoplatonism FWIW).  This insight is incomptable with the direct worship of other great gods (Gods that are rune owners).  This means that worshippers of Daka Fal, Orlanth, Humakt, Ernalda and Yelm cannot learn sorcery.  This doesn't explain why other gods might prohibit the use of sorcery (ie Waha or Yelmalio)

 

 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is Orlanth's issue with sorcery, or sorcerers? (in the same way that there are spirit magicians and shamans... which is hugely different. And lay members and initiates) By the looks of things, the issue is the type of magic itself, rather than the person casting it.

As Orlanth and Lhankor Mhy are treating each other as an associated cult and Lhankor Mhy is using and teaching openly sorcery, I don't think Orlanth has a problem with sorcery, nor with sorcerors. He simply does not teach, nor use it.

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, Crel said:

<snip stuff>

"...learned 10+ spells,... " - if the GM takes sorcery spells to be skills (and personally, I do), then your starting sorcery can have that...

 

Summary - Philosopher gets  one Rune and one Technique - plus 3 spells of varying skill.

Lhankor Mhy gets Command Technique and Truth Rune

Malkioni get 3 Runes and 2 Techniques at start (no specifics).

Aeolians get 2 Runes and one Technique.

Lunars are unspecified.

 

So, I'm at a loss as to why you'd go the LM way at character creation. Malkioni would be way better (as it currently stands), unless you're really desperate for the Trickster stuff.And, I'm sure there will be versions of Malkionism that will allow initiations into theistic cults (as the Aeolians do). But, we shall see...

Why POW over INT? Power is much easier to get than INT... unless you're desperately hoping the GM will allow for unlimited upgrades of Enhance INT. And, don't forget... INT-12 worth of Techniques and Runes.... so, realistically, minimum INT of 14 or 15 starting. So, you're possibly better off going Fire/Sky first, then Moon (those 2 points in INT are invaluable, while the 2 points to POW are only a couple of seasons away... unless you're smart! A smart sorcerer can get that POWer in 3 days!)

 

" Given the Flight discussion earlier, I figure you can get that effect by casting Hallucinate "

I can't see a single GM allowing that, considering the "The hallucination is perceived only by the spell’s caster ...is completely undetectable to anyone else". (my emphasis)

 

RE: cult options.... RAW, you could join Eurmal, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy (and also Chalana Arroy... but pacificism... meh), as they're all part of the Lightbringer gang.

 

BTW, Humakt was illuminated, so having sorcery may not be an issue...

[Shiningbrow]

21 minutes ago, metcalph said:

In practice, I don't think this distinction will matter too much as sorcery is really only effective if you cast Big Spells.  Otherwise you are better off learning the equivalent rune and spirit magic spells.

What's a "Big spell"?

And, obviously, there are sorcery spells that do things that Sprit and Rune magic currently can't do.

(just saying!)

 

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As to why Orlanth might have an issue with the knowledge of sorcery (which would extend even to Lhankoring Sorcery even though they are the best of friends).  Knowledge of Sorcery requires some degree of henosis, the unity of one's mind with the Invisible God (based on Real World Neoplatonism FWIW).  This insight is incomptable with the direct worship of other great gods (Gods that are rune owners).  This means that worshippers of Daka Fal, Orlanth, Humakt, Ernalda and Yelm cannot learn sorcery.  This doesn't explain why other gods might prohibit the use of sorcery (ie Waha or Yelmalio)

 

So, you're actually suggesting that Lhankor Mhy sages are unifying their minds with the Invisible God (that, I presume, they believe doesn't exist) ???

You're actually supporting an argument I was making above that there are actually different types of sorcery, but have essentially the same effects. One is theistic, the other not. Clearly, I think, Mostali sorcery is not exactly the same.

My view would be more that Orlanth and others feel that (as per current sorcery rules), sorcerers are "messing" with their runes. And, if you can mess with the big boys' and girls' runes, then you're messing with all of them. LM, CA, Issaries, etc don't feel so protective or worried.

[Shiningbrow]

23 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As Orlanth and Lhankor Mhy are treating each other as an associated cult and Lhankor Mhy is using and teaching openly sorcery, I don't think Orlanth has a problem with sorcery, nor with sorcerors. He simply does not teach, nor use it.

That would be my take.. but previous versions of RQ were quite specific that various cults required initiates to forget all sorcery spells. Now, I would presume that once you've learnt a Technique or mastered a Rune you wouldn't be allowed into Orlanth.. unless you took an Oath not to use any sorcery again (with the consequence being a visit by your non-friendly spirit of reprisal)

[Kloster]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

That would be my take.. but previous versions of RQ were quite specific that various cults required initiates to forget all sorcery spells. Now, I would presume that once you've learnt a Technique or mastered a Rune you wouldn't be allowed into Orlanth.. unless you took an Oath not to use any sorcery again (with the consequence being a visit by your non-friendly spirit of reprisal)

Yes, RQIII had most cults requiring initiates to forget all the sorcery spells they knew (but I once had a player whose character previously wrote all his spells to spell matrixes and was thus compliant). This restriction does not exist anymore. I think the Orlanth (and other cults) reaction to sorcery is more a social one. Once you get the oath, of course, using sorcery is more serious and for me warrants a Spirit of Reprisal (TM).

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

What's a "Big spell"?

A spell taking one or more melee rounds to cast.

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, obviously, there are sorcery spells that do things that Sprit and Rune magic currently can't do.

That's true for all forms of magic.

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, you're actually suggesting that Lhankor Mhy sages are unifying their minds with the Invisible God (that, I presume, they believe doesn't exist) ???

Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos the Lawgover (or Mostal depending on which source you read) and Orenoar (the Goddess of Truth).  His version of Henosis will put the worshipper into either of his parents.  The God Learner will say, the worshipper's really hooking up to an inferior version of the Invisible God.  

 

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

You're actually supporting an argument I was making above that there are actually different types of sorcery, but have essentially the same effects. One is theistic, the other not. Clearly, I think, Mostali sorcery is not exactly the same.

I do not believe in different types of sorcery.  There is only one sorcery which stems from the Invisible God.  However the name and nature of the Invisible God varies according to his worshippers (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Fonritans, Lhankorings and Mostali).  One believes the Invisible God is utterly removed from the world while another believes he is totally manifest.  Depending on what the worshippers believe, some forms of sorcery are available or forbidden.  Pretty much every worshipper believes his own version of the Invisible God is the Absolute Best Invisible God there is and that everyboy else's are just plain wrong.

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I do not believe in different types of sorcery.  There is only one sorcery which stems from the Invisible God.  However the name and nature of the Invisible God varies according to his worshippers (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Fonritans, Lhankorings and Mostali).  One believes the Invisible God is utterly removed from the world while another believes he is totally manifest.  Depending on what the worshippers believe, some forms of sorcery are available or forbidden.  Pretty much every worshipper believes his own version of the Invisible God is the Absolute Best Invisible God there is and that everyboy else's are just plain wrong.

So, no atheistic sorcery? (or are they just fooling themselves?)

[Kloster]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I do not believe in different types of sorcery.  There is only one sorcery which stems from the Invisible God.  However the name and nature of the Invisible God varies according to his worshippers (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Fonritans, Lhankorings and Mostali).  One believes the Invisible God is utterly removed from the world while another believes he is totally manifest.  Depending on what the worshippers believe, some forms of sorcery are available or forbidden.  Pretty much every worshipper believes his own version of the Invisible God is the Absolute Best Invisible God there is and that everyboy else's are just plain wrong.

What I believe (or understand) is that there is only one sorcery, which is coming form the sorceror himself, and that most cults believe coming from the Invisible God. The restriction are as much social as religious (in addition of simply not known or forgotten spells and techniques).

Edited April 26, 2019 by Kloster

[metcalph]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

So, no atheistic sorcery? (or are they just fooling themselves?)

Depends on what you mean by atheism.

1)  If you mean does not worship, then worship of the Invisible God is not necessary to perform sorcery.  Some Malkioni may do it but they are considered to be stupid by others.

2) If you mean a denial of the existence of Gods, then I don't think this is Glorantha.  The Gods are real, not figments of imagination.  Whether they should be worshipped is another matter.

 

[PhilHibbs]

21 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, you're actually suggesting that Lhankor Mhy sages are unifying their minds with the Invisible God (that, I presume, they believe doesn't exist) ???

Doesn't exist? Why would they believe that? It's pretty obvious and by definition provable that pretty much all the gods do exist. Their magic works, that's usually proof enough for most folks.

12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd love to play a crazy old firebug librarian trickster.

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Isn't that called a sociopath?

Yes, all tricksters are sociopaths. Some say all munchkins are, too!

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

What I believe (or understand) is that there is only one sorcery, which is coming form the sorceror himself, and that most cults believe coming from the Invisible God. The restriction are as much social as religious (in addition of simply not known or forgotten spells and techniques).

The power of the spell comes from the sorcerer as pretty much everybody acknowledges.  The knowledge required to understand the spell comes from the Invisible God (which is far closer to the Original Intelligence than to an Omnipotent God). 

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Depends on what you mean by atheism.

1)  If you mean does not worship, then worship of the Invisible God is not necessary to perform sorcery.  Some Malkioni may do it but they are considered to be stupid by others.

2) If you mean a denial of the existence of Gods, then I don't think this is Glorantha.  The Gods are real, not figments of imagination.  Whether they should be worshipped is another matter.

 

2) but with a caveat. The Gods are entities (powerful, of course), but still just spirits - manifestations of the Runes - which are primordial forces in the world - not overly different to Malkionism (of at least 1 sect.. I don't recall the name). However, there is no Invisible God behind it all... that part was just made up .

So, sure, the gods are real in teh same way that magic and spirits are real... but their existence isn't as intrinsic to the world as assumed.

I don't see any reason why a person in Glorantha couldn't take this perspective - especially a sorcerer who's been using their magic for years, and finally coming to that conclusion (hubris/arrogance).

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, all tricksters are sociopaths. Some say all munchkins are, too!

🤣🤣

 

[metcalph]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

2) but with a caveat. The Gods are entities (powerful, of course), but still just spirits - manifestations of the Runes - which are primordial forces in the world - not overly different to Malkionism (of at least 1 sect.. I don't recall the name). However, there is no Invisible God behind it all... that part was just made up .

There is a definite difference in the sources between Gods and Spirits.  As for the Invisible God being made up, I don't believe any sect believes that.  The Brithini are hardcore atheists yet their sorcerers work through the Invisible God.  Where they differ from other sects I think is they avoid trying to define it and concentrate on the Runes instead.

 

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

So, sure, the gods are real in teh same way that magic and spirits are real... but their existence isn't as intrinsic to the world as assumed.

If you have the Glorantha Sourcebook, look at the Xeotam Dialogues p74 for a description of how the Malkioni view the Cosmos.  The Gods are intrinsic to the Cosmos in the way that the Sun and Planets are intrinsic to the Solar System.   However in admitting that, it does not follow that the Gods should be worshipped.

 

[Joerg]

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, you're actually suggesting that Lhankor Mhy sages are unifying their minds with the Invisible God (that, I presume, they believe doesn't exist) ???

Speaking for myself, connecting with the sorcery plane might be much less of a profound spiritual experience and way more logging into the operation system of the world in a technocratic way. A Lhankoring sorcerer connects to the catalogue of the eternal knowledge repository which records (and labels) all truths and falsehoods rather than to the One Mind.

The One Mind of the Malkioni encompasses more than just factual knowledge. Their ancestors aren't called the Logicians for nothing.

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

You're actually supporting an argument I was making above that there are actually different types of sorcery, but have essentially the same effects. One is theistic, the other not. Clearly, I think, Mostali sorcery is not exactly the same.

I don't think that the wielding of the magic differs between Malkioni and theist sorcerers. What differs is their perception or approach. The Malkioni approaches this as himself, or perhaps as the human lineage that connects him to the primal ancestors that were born to the One Mind, whereas a Lhankoring or a Chalanan puts himself into the perspective of their respective deities and then uses this algorithmic magic.

Mostali sorcery might differ somewhat - Malkioni extract magic from the world to release energy. Mostali collect energy and endow their dear matter with that.

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

My view would be more that Orlanth and others feel that (as per current sorcery rules), sorcerers are "messing" with their runes.

That, and they are re-writing the rules, drawing on ambient energies (described as "sympathetic magic") that isn't part of themselves but part of his or his friends' realms. Even without actual Tapping this is intrusive.

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, if you can mess with the big boys' and girls' runes, then you're messing with all of them. LM, CA, Issaries, etc don't feel so protective or worried.

All of these deities use Power runes rather than Element runes. Powers probably are much less of a domain and more of a process, which might make edging in on their terrain much less intrusive. Power runes are by definition interfering with other domains.