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Shiningbrow

Limits to learning magic - what's to stop you?

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I notice the various 'soul' viewing spells don't pick up on whether someone has practised or learned any sorcery. And, in fact, there appears to only be that one very specific shamanic ability (which, given the number of other abilities out there, I doubt many would bother taking) that can detect the presence of sorcery (Second Sight - Enhanced). So, shamans might know if someone has learned sorcery, and possibly may even care...

So, if there's no obvious and quick way to know of this -  not counting Truth spells, obviously..., what's to stop theists from learning a little? (other, obviously, than cultural stereotypes and prejudices... and probable lack of basic availability... time... money...). I also doubt that most gods care enough about their initiates to be watching carefully their every action - so both the learning and practising, and then the use of, sorcery wouldn't register. Perhaps gods care a little more about their higher ranking worshippers, but wouldn't that break the compromise?? A Rune Lord's allied spirit might tell... but that's still a maybe...

In the main book, Vasana needs to turn to Damastol to find out where they all need to go. It takes all of a few minutes to get the answer. As arrogant as that wizard is, surely Vasana's got to be thinking "you know, that is actually pretty cool. I wish I could do that!"

 

In older RQs, sorcery was strictly forbidden - but again, I didn't notice a mechanism for determining if someone had actually studied it or not.

I'd also ask the same question of whether someone has awakened their fetch or not - but I presume that the above mentioned spells would show that up in a person's aura (or, at least, something along the lines of "you seem to have a strange spirit hanging around you... which, energetically, looks a heck of a lot like you!")

 

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9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

what's to stop theists from learning a little? (other, obviously, than cultural stereotypes and prejudices... and probable lack of basic availability... time... money...). I also doubt that most gods care enough about their initiates to be watching carefully their every action - so both the learning and practising, and then the use of, sorcery wouldn't register.

The gods don't have a choice whether to care or not. They are what they are, they do what they do. If you break the rules and learn sorcery, then you will be attacked by Spirits of Reprisal. Looking closely at the rules, it says that the SoR only go after 1) Initiates who leave the cult, and 2) Rune levels who break major cult rules. So technically an Initiate learning sorcery should be ok, in fact by this strict reading an Initiate can break any cult rule without risking the Spirits of Reprisal, but if you ever intend to achieve Rune level, don't even think about it.

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17 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

In the main book, Vasana needs to turn to Damastol to find out where they all need to go. It takes all of a few minutes to get the answer. As arrogant as that wizard is, surely Vasana's got to be thinking "you know, that is actually pretty cool. I wish I could do that!"

surely Vasana's got to be thinking "Thank Orlanth he's not in our party, he makes my skin crawl with his godless magic".

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13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The gods don't have a choice whether to care or not. They are what they are, they do what they do. If you break the rules and learn sorcery, then you will be attacked by Spirits of Reprisal. Looking closely at the rules, it says that the SoR only go after 1) Initiates who leave the cult, and 2) Rune levels who break major cult rules. So technically an Initiate learning sorcery should be ok, in fact by this strict reading an Initiate can break any cult rule without risking the Spirits of Reprisal, but if you ever intend to achieve Rune level, don't even think about it.

Again, how is anyone going to know? (which was the crux of my question). Let alone, how are the various associated gods of LM going to feel about it?

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

surely Vasana's got to be thinking "Thank Orlanth he's not in our party, he makes my skin crawl with his godless magic".

"...Unlike that wonderful believer Sorala, and her wondrous, god-given magic!"

This response is merely part of the 'prejudice' I mentioned above...

(also need to remember that one of Vasana's primary runes is the Moon... weird choice for an Orlanthi ... "create some tension")

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29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Again, how is anyone going to know? (which was the crux of my question). Let alone, how are the various associated gods of LM going to feel about it?

Your god knows because you know. You are a part of the god, you literally become an avatar of the god for a moment every time you cast a rune spell, and every time you participate in a worship ceremony. Initiation isn't just words that you say in order to get a wafer and a sip of wine on Godsday, and to stop your mum from pestering you. it's a commitment of your soul. Your god will know if that soul that you have committed is tainted.

If you are illuminated, then you can learn to partition your soul into bits that are your god, and bits that are not, a sort of cognitive dissonance, but that's a different subject.

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6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Your god knows because you know. You are a part of the god, you literally become an avatar of the god for a moment every time you cast a rune spell, and every time you participate in a worship ceremony. Initiation isn't just words that you say in order to get a wafer and a sip of wine on Godsday, and to stop your mum from pestering you. it's a commitment of your soul. Your god will know if that soul that you have committed is tainted.

If you are illuminated, then you can learn to partition your soul into bits that are your god, and bits that are not, a sort of cognitive dissonance, but that's a different subject.

I appreciate this summary as a new player.

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10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Your god knows because you know. You are a part of the god, you literally become an avatar of the god for a moment every time you cast a rune spell, and every time you participate in a worship ceremony. Initiation isn't just words that you say in order to get a wafer and a sip of wine on Godsday, and to stop your mum from pestering you. it's a commitment of your soul. Your god will know if that soul that you have committed is tainted.

If you are illuminated, then you can learn to partition your soul into bits that are your god, and bits that are not, a sort of cognitive dissonance, but that's a different subject.

Yeah, indeed. That is a good point.

However, I would definitely disagree with illumination being described as cognitive dissonance: in my view it's more the exact opposite (and the normal state of being is cognitively dissonant the from source). 

Edited by Grievous
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If you learn sorcery in secret, and you're at a worship ceremony re-enacting a myth in which Lhankor Mhy exposes an evil infiltrator from the west who is corrupting the people to worship foreign powers, you might just find that it is you that the priest seizes and throws to the ground for judgement by Orlanth.

This is a myth* that is re-enacted any time someone wants to learn the Truespeak spell. Or maybe Soul Sight, although it's a "common" spell I still think there are myths that you re-enact to learn it.

* I just made this up, by the way

Edited by PhilHibbs
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1 minute ago, Grievous said:

However, I would definitely disagree with illumination being described as cognitive dissonance: in my view it's more the exact opposite (and the normal state of being is cognitively dissonant the from source). 

Illumination both is and is not cognitive dissonance.

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13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Your god knows because you know. You are a part of the god, you literally become an avatar of the god for a moment every time you cast a rune spell, and every time you participate in a worship ceremony. Initiation isn't just words that you say in order to get a wafer and a sip of wine on Godsday, and to stop your mum from pestering you. it's a commitment of your soul. Your god will know if that soul that you have committed is tainted.

 

That works... (although, not sure about the "every time you participate in a worship ceremony", but certainly with casting (and acquiring) Rune spells/points.

I'd also say, that's something that should be strongly pointed out, especially to new players.

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1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:
2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

what's to stop theists from learning a little? (other, obviously, than cultural stereotypes and prejudices... and probable lack of basic availability... time... money...). I also doubt that most gods care enough about their initiates to be watching carefully their every action - so both the learning and practising, and then the use of, sorcery wouldn't register.

The gods don't have a choice whether to care or not. They are what they are, they do what they do. If you break the rules and learn sorcery, then you will be attacked by Spirits of Reprisal. Looking closely at the rules, it says that the SoR only go after 1) Initiates who leave the cult, and 2) Rune levels who break major cult rules. So technically an Initiate learning sorcery should be ok, in fact by this strict reading an Initiate can break any cult rule without risking the Spirits of Reprisal, but if you ever intend to achieve Rune level, don't even think about it.

What about Initiates who have previous of breaking major cult rules and then become Rune Levels? Do they just get a 'Hard Stare' from one of the spirits of reprisal?

Quote

"I'm a-watchin' youse Bub, you bet, I'm a-watchin' real close!"

 

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13 minutes ago, Byll said:

What about Initiates who have previous of breaking major cult rules and then become Rune Levels? Do they just get a 'Hard Stare' from one of the spirits of reprisal?

🤣

I think the implication that Initiates only get visited by SoR when they leave the cult is incorrect, although it does make sense to me that the transgressions have to be more severe than those for Rune levels to get smacked. And yes, if you did a load of stuff as an initiate and got away from it, you better be extra-careful now.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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