Logician - seriously OP???

[Tywyll]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:02 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Yeah it's pretty toasty. But if you want to see a really silly spell, look up Moonburn.

What am I missing? It didn't seem that powerful when I read it?

[PhilHibbs]

16 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

What am I missing? It didn't seem that powerful when I read it?

If you can crank it up to Strength 20, that's 5D6 to everyone in a 160m radius.

Edited April 25, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Tywyll]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you can crank it up to Strength 20, that's 5D6 to everyone in a 160m radius.

Er...yup, that's powerful!

Is that to a single location or general hp? Doing AoE effects in systems with hit locations never really works well...

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you can crank it up to Strength 20, that's 5D6 to everyone in a 160m radius.

Yes, and WITHOUT a POW vs. POW roll, as the damage is physical (like for Fireblade).

[Shiningbrow]

8 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Er...yup, that's powerful!

Is that to a single location or general hp? Doing AoE effects in systems with hit locations never really works well...

A random hit location.

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Yes, and WITHOUT a POW vs. POW roll, as the damage is physical (like for Fireblade).

Armour protects as usual. (For Twyyll)

[David Scott]

In practice however Moonfire isn't that bad, it's actually hard to use and the targets can run away or hide. 

Warning, the intricacies of casting Lunar sorcery lie ahead...

One of my players has a Lunar Sorcerer of the Shadow Path (a school he invented). His adventurer has an INT of 18 and 24mps (he can only use 23 or goes unconscious). He had 3 spells in memory so a Free INT of 15.

He uses Moon and his summon technique. The costs are 4mps and he can manipulate up to strength 15 for another 14mps, so 18 in total. That gives him 3D6 damage over a 20m radius. This is where the problems set in - he is inside the radius as the base range is 10m.

So adding range of 30m, intensity 3 reduces the Strength to 12, still 3D6 damage and 20m radius, 4+11+3 = 18mps. His DEX SR was 3 so casting time is 1 round + SR3 + 18 SRs = 2 Rounds at goes off at SR9 next round.

So that's the basics for a Half Moon Phase with everything "normal".

Casting it in combat is pointless due to the time to cast, area effect and friendly fire issues. Casting it on a cave full of broo was very useful.

It's a temporal spell not Instant so the target has to be in the area for 5 minutes to receive the damage. The cave of Broos couldn't escape -  so it was fish in a barrel - the moonfire got in through gap in the boulders. Otherwise the targets will scatter.

Overall this works great on trapped or static targets, like elf forests and fortifications (but not those in sealed rooms or underground).

Now the Moon phases

Full Moon Day: only costs 9pts, goes off quicker (limited by available Free INT)

Crescent Moon Days:  Limited to 24mps - his max. 6 + 15 + 2 = 23 mps, Intensity 11, range 20m = 23mps only 2D6 and 10m radius (Limited by mps)

Dying/Black Moon Days: Limited to 24mps - his max. 8 + 12 + 2, Intensity 7, range 20m = 22mps only 1D6 and 10m radius

He has a chart on his character sheet...

Sorcerers with Enhance INT will be much more powerful on Full Moon days, but my player doesn't have that (yet). Given the character above he can't quite get to 4D6 damage as the range needed to be outside the area of effect needs too much range. If he had a base INT of 16 or one less spell it would work.

[PhilHibbs]

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

In practice however Moonfire isn't that bad, it's actually hard to use and the targets can run away or hide. ll it would work.

Sure, as a player character, it's difficult to get it up to that kind of level. It takes some investment in POW to build up a scroll, basically. But if you're a magical army, with resources to dedicate to cultivating a few specialists, this is a game-changer. I'm not generally a fan of this line of logic, but it does raise the question "why is every battle not won by Moonfire?".

Sure, Moonfire has been used in Glorantha, and I can see the desire to show some game mechanics behind it. But one single ordinary sorcery spell, really, that's it? It's so simple that it's disappointing.

[metcalph]

So if the spell is temporal and the damage received if potential victims don't run away, a Lunar sorceror could economize on the range of the Moonfire by selecting the target location within ten metres and then run screaming for the spell's borders?

Be real funny if someone had cast glue on him.

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

why is every battle not won by Moonfire

I think very simply that you have to target an area, so it's not a battlefield spell.

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, Moonfire has been used in Glorantha, and I can see the desire to show some game mechanics behind it.

Moonfire isn't Moonburn.

 

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Be real funny if someone had cast glue on him.

Thanks for the solution - just glue everyone down first 🙂

Edited April 26, 2019 by David Scott

[Tywyll]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

A random hit location.

Ugh...see that makes no sense. How can you blast 160M radius area and targets only get damage in the arm or whatever? 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Armour protects as usual. (For Twyyll)

Another reason why every battle isn't won by moonfire. Decent armor and protective spells and you laugh it off.

[Tywyll]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, and WITHOUT a POW vs. POW roll, as the damage is physical (like for Fireblade).

Can it be parried or dodged?

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Can it be parried or dodged?

It's a scintillating magical laser, minimum of 5m radius, run, you've got 5 minutes to escape.

17 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Ugh...see that makes no sense. How can you blast 160M radius area and targets only get damage in the arm or whatever?

It's a weird piece of scintillating lunar magic, not a beam. 

[PhilHibbs]

21 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Another reason why every battle isn't won by moonfire. Decent armor and protective spells and you laugh it off.

That's some pretty good armour that can laugh off 5D6 damage. Sure, you might have 10 points of armour, and Protection 6, giving you a 50-50 chance of laughing it off, but  how many of your army have that?

[Shiningbrow]

I'm now quite confused by the Moonfire spell... (and, wondering where this Moonburn that @David Scott is talking about...)

Firstly, Moonfire has 4 Runes - and thus, you should probably know all 4 before you go casting, or it's going to get very expensive (unless, of course, I've missed something that says otherwise!)

Secondly, it's temporal, meaning it lasts a few minutes. Yet, RAW, there's no indication to how many hits a person should take... especially across that area. Is it only once? Or, is it every round? If it's the latter, then this spell would be nasty on the battlefield, especially against Yelmalians, who just love formation fighting. Sure, they're going to start running away, but it's going to hurt while they do. And, in all probability, they'll be incapacitated before they can get out.

The standard hit location seems odd... especially compared to the 1D10+10 for mounted combat rolls... this would also make sense for a rain of moonfire...

[Kloster]

48 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Can it be parried or dodged?

No, and I don't think you need to remain for 5 full minutes within radius to be affected. The way I read it, If you are in the radius, even for a moment, within that 5 minutes, you take the damage. I see it like falling damage (but location is random): automatic and taken once if you are concerned.

 

51 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Another reason why every battle isn't won by moonfire. Decent armor and protective spells and you laugh it off.

Few characters (Player or not) have an armor that can protect enough to laugh vs 4D6, not speaking of 5D6, even if counting spells. Mine certainly does not: You need 14 Armor Points (or 17 for 5D6) to shrug off the attack. During a battle, less than 1% of the troops will have 17 AP.

[gochie]

5 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Er...yup, that's powerful!

Is that to a single location or general hp? Doing AoE effects in systems with hit locations never really works well...

I visualize a bit like a starfall from Warcraft... Little projectiles raining down from the sky and piercing through people. 

[David Scott]

23 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

where this Moonburn that @David Scott is talking about...)

Have a look in the Glorantha Sourcebook page 164:

Quote

In 1/44 (1291), the Emperor ordered a Moonburn begun, modeled on the earlier Char-un event. The different forms of Lunar magic required five years to complete the spell, and allowed the defenders to prepare some countermagics as well, which dampened the final effect in comparison to the original Skyburn. Many portions of the land were untouched.

It was modelled on the Skyburn (same page)

Quote

 

In 1/30 (1277), the ritual was begun [...]

In 1/32 (1279), the ritual ended and unleashed the event now called Skyburn.

Skyburn began at dawn, “pale fire dripping from bough tips,” and increased in intensity until at noon “Hellfire pouring from the sky, burning stone and soul.” By dusk the entire land was naught but glowing embers, which still smoked the next day as the Khan led his tribe to explore their new lands.

 

There are more details elsewhere in Gloranthan literature.

23 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Firstly, Moonfire has 4 Runes - and thus, you should probably know all 4 before you go casting, or it's going to get very expensive (unless, of course, I've missed something that says otherwise!)

Interestingly on page 386:

Quote

Each spell consists of one or more Runes, manipulated by a technique. The sorcerer must have achieved mastery or insight into each Rune and technique contained in the spell to use the spell at the normal cost.

then on the same page:

Quote

If the caster has not mastered one of the Runes or techniques required in the spell, but is using an associated Rune or technique as a substitute (see above), the cost for that Rune or technique is doubled.

I think my group has misinterpreted the rules here. The number of runes in the spell is the cost as noted in each spell. So in the case of my player, his adventurer has only 2 of the four so it's a six point spell not a four.

23 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Secondly, it's temporal, meaning it lasts a few minutes.

Temporal sorcery spell are 10 minutes.

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, gochie said:

I visualize a bit like a starfall from Warcraft... Little projectiles raining down from the sky and piercing through people.

That's actually a different magic belonging to another school of lunar magic - the Crater makers -  Meteor storm.

[Austin]

The first sentence reads "For the duration of the spell, crimson fire falls from the sky in a 5-meter radius, doing damage to a random hit location, ..." My initial reading of this was you finish the spell, and then for the duration it deals its damage each round within that radius. It's important to note that the spell is Active, so while a shot to the leg from your own Moonfire might not kill you, it could make you lose concentration on the spell if you fail that INTx3 roll.

From a balance perspective I like the notion of "take damage one time while you're in the area" but I don't see "realistically" how that works, nor do I feel that's the most accurate reading of the text. Further, that "for the duration" clause makes me think that the spell's effect happens once you finish casting, not at the end of yet-further duration. I feel this is implicitly supported by the fact that the Temporal tag and levels of duration only increase, rather than decrease, the time needed.

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Quote

Secondly, it's temporal, meaning it lasts a few minutes.

Temporal sorcery spell are 10 minutes.

Base is 5min. 10min base is RQ3, though I'm not sure the distinction heavily alters the question of how often Moonfire's damage hits.

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, Crel said:

Base is 5min.

My mistake.

[Kloster]

19 minutes ago, Crel said:

From a balance perspective I like the notion of "take damage one time while you're in the area" but I don't see "realistically" how that works, nor do I feel that's the most accurate reading of the text.

Conflagration spell damage is specifically described as 'per Melee Round', and not MoonFire damage. This is why I guessed that MoonFire is doing damage only once. This has the unfortunate effect of having somebody already affected that can stay, but avoid the 4D6/MR for 25 MR monster.

[jps]

It's a big spell, demanding the mastery of many Runes: Moon and Fire (so it's not for beginning characters who can pick only one none Technique Rune); it demands Combine and Summon.

I'm not yet well versed into the new sorcery rules but page 384 stipulates  "Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or Technique that the sorcerer has not mastered".

Let's suppose I have mastered the Moon and Earth Rune, plus I have the command Technique. What happens?

1. I'm lacking both a Rune and two Techniques so I cannot cast the spell
2. The Earth is minor to the Fire Rune and the Command Technique is minor to all Techniques thus I can cast the spell. So I have three minors (both Runes and Techniques) for a cost of x2 (first minor), x4 (second minor), x8 third minor. Therefore the strength of my spell with only 15 Free INT would considerably be diminished.

 

[Kloster]

39 minutes ago, jps said:

It's a big spell, demanding the mastery of many Runes: Moon and Fire (so it's not for beginning characters who can pick only one none Technique Rune); it demands Combine and Summon.

I'm not yet well versed into the new sorcery rules but page 384 stipulates  "Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or Technique that the sorcerer has not mastered".

Let's suppose I have mastered the Moon and Earth Rune, plus I have the command Technique. What happens?

1. I'm lacking both a Rune and two Techniques so I cannot cast the spell
2. The Earth is minor to the Fire Rune and the Command Technique is minor to all Techniques thus I can cast the spell. So I have three minors (both Runes and Techniques) for a cost of x2 (first minor), x4 (second minor), x8 third minor. Therefore the strength of my spell with only 15 Free INT would considerably be diminished.

 

As I have understood, cost would be x8, for a 32MP cost for an intensity of 1.

It is also possible to understand a cost of 7 (1 for the mastered Rune/Technique and 2 for each of the 3 unmastered).

Edited April 26, 2019 by Kloster

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, jps said:

ILet's suppose I have mastered the Moon and Earth Rune, plus I have the command Technique. What happens?

 

Earth can infer Fire, doubling the MP cost.

Command can infer any other technique, and I haven't seen any indication that you cannot infer two techniques at the same time from it. This will quadruple the already doubled MP cost.

Taking David's numbers as a guideline, you'd need roundabout 180 MP casting this spell.

But: If you had a group of broo trapped in that cave, Steal Breath would be a lot more helpful. And down half an hour of maintaining that spell,  you can shrug off the MP cost for the Moonfire and refill everybody's crystals and matrices with what is left in excess of your maximum MP.

And taking the energy out of Storm is very much in keeping with Lunar doctrine.

 

I wonder whether there is a correlating "Absorb Moonglow" weakening the effect of the Lunar Cycle and even more that of the Glowline or Glowspot.