How do the Alkothi view Shargash?

[Sir_Godspeed]

The impression we get of Shargash from most of the available myths seem to be from a non-Alkothi viewpoint. Some seem to be from a more generic Pelorian/Dara Happan viewpoint (I'm leaning towards an "orthodox" noble Raibanthi or Yuthuppan perspective, but it might as well be a highly genericized Pelorian one, if such a thing exists), or a somewhat more distant Theyalan one (albeit under another name).

He generally comes off as either a boisterous bully (Golden Age myths), or a raging, unstoppable, all-destroying bersker (Storm/Darkness Age myths). In either case, he is almost rage incarnate, and relies heavily on being restrained by the "innate justice"/authority of Yelm.

We know from the Sourcebook that Shargash is explicitly associated with Tolat by the few scholars in Glorantha that understand such matters, and we know that Tolat is a much more nuanced deity, however, whether he appears in Pamaltela or coastal Genertela. Some people have suggested that Tolat's more amorous aspects have been separated to Shargash's son, the city/regional patron deity Alkor.

I was just thinking about the difference between Greek views on Ares and the Roman views on Mars, and how that relation is quite interesting. There's a lot to go into there, of course, and I won't overanalyze stuff (neither were the sole war gods for their cultures of course, and they also have a separate origin - Mars started off as a Shepherd god, while Quirinius was the original Roman war deity, rendered quite obscure later on), but in short, they made me think of what seems to be a lack of an Alkothi perspective of their own founder deity, to whom their entire city is a temple.

In short, the Greeks did not like Ares. They generally portrayed him as a boisterous, bullish brute, who was best appeased in peace time, and reluctantly released in war. Even Sparta, stereotypically the most militaristic of the Greek City states, would much, much rather worship Artemis and Apollo, Athena and many other deities before Ares. Ares was in many ways the personification of the forces of destruction, unrelenting, cruel, and horrible. Not someone you elevate to a major part of a state's cultic practices, but more like a WMD you break out when necessary.

The Romans, on the contrary, seems to have delighted in Mars, dedicated plenty of things to him (temples, areas, months, days, etc.), and saw him as an ancestor (possibly in a metaphorical sense, I forget if Aeneas is supposed to have descended from him or not. I'm sure you will tell me). Mars started off as a shepherd god, a guardian of livestock from thieves, bandits and wild animals, and gradually become a general protector of boundaries (hence the name being etymologically related to "march", or border-land). As the Roman state expanded, bit by bit through war after ostensibly defensively-based war, Mars became a general war god. He was overall a good dude to have around.

Now, I want to add here that I am not suggesting that the Alkothi view Shargash as the Romans did Mars. What I am rather saying is that I strongly suspect that they have a more nuanced and expanded view of not only Shargash's actions, functions, and qualities, but also his motivations. I have seen some fan-writings trying to expand on this (which I like), but I'm interested in hearing more here what people think.

For one, I wonder how the Alkothi view the relation between Shargash and Yelm. Do they secretly hold him as high as Yelm, or do they play up the "filial piety" aspect of things, by emphasizing that the reason why Shargash destroyed the world after Yelm died was due to grief/rage, or possibly to prepare/purify the world for his father's return?

Do they add other facets to Shargash beyond simply fighting itself? Is he a maker of citadels (he did make at least one giant magical wall), a judger of duels, a protector of his family, or a keeper of social order? Does he still dance and bang his drum as a spectacle beyond preparing for battle? Is he an agent of vengeance against the dishonorouble/injust/rebellious?

In short - how does the ordinary people, as well as native nobles, that sleep, eat, defecate and love, marry and procreate inside of Alkoth's wall view their city's founding god?

Or do they, as Sparta, simply not hold him to a special reverence above other, more immediately relevant deities like Oria, Alkoth or what have you, and the extreme emphasis on Shargash for the city is to some degree a foreign fixation?

[Leingod]

26 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

(possibly in a metaphorical sense, I forget if Aeneas is supposed to have descended from him or not. I'm sure you will tell me).

Aeneas is the son of Prince Anchises (cousin to King Priam) and Aphrodite.

Personally, I've always viewed Shargash as essentially the Solar equivalent of the Air pantheon's Urox/Storm Bull. The Dara Happans and Orlanthi respectively see Shargash and Urox as bullying brutes who've done a lot of terrible things for seemingly no good reason, but are also kind of a necessary evil because they've defeated enemies that no one else was able to.

The Praxians don't change Storm Bull's essential nature when they venerate him as their chief god, though they certainly emphasize certain traits over others, and they also justify Storm Bull via his necessity, rather than trying to portray him as this misunderstood just protector. I always figured the Alkothi see Shargash in a similar way. Neither a Praxian nor an Alkothi would ever claim that their god is a nice or good god, but they both see their god as a necessary one who offers something worth following them for.

[RHW]

I think it helps to understand Shargash as the personification of fire in a slash and burn agricultural land. First comes Shargash the red, who burns away unwanted plants, purifying and fertilizing the land. The comes Shargash the Black. The land is blackened and covered in ash. It appears dead, but the secret of Shargash is that now is the time for planting. Drill holes in the Earth and plant your seed. Finally Shargash the Green springs to life, feeding his people.

Shargash the Red is also handy in war, and certainly that's an honored and important role for him. But it's an extension of his primary role as the fire that purifies the land and claims it for the Alkothi. Shargash the Red burns away the weeds and scrub! Shargash the Red prepares the way for life and renewal!

Shargash the Red is terrifying to outsiders, and that's as it should be. For they are the weeds and the Alkothi are the true crops that yield for the good of the Universe.

All hail Shargash!

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 minutes ago, RHW said:

I think it helps to understand Shargash as the personification of fire in a slash and burn agricultural land. First comes Shargash the red, who burns away unwanted plants, purifying and fertilizing the land. The comes Shargash the Black. The land is blackened and covered in ash. It appears dead, but the secret of Shargash is that now is the time for planting. Drill holes in the Earth and plant your seed. Finally Shargash the Green springs to life, feeding his people.

Shargash the Red is also handy in war, and certainly that's an honored and important role for him. But it's an extension of his primary role as the fire that purifies the land and claims it for the Alkothi. Shargash the Red burns away the weeds and scrub! Shargash the Red prepares the way for life and renewal!

Shargash the Red is terrifying to outsiders, and that's as it should be. For they are the weeds and the Alkothi are the true crops that yield for the good of the Universe.

All hail Shargash!

I absolutely love this perspective (it integrates the Fire element nicely, and adds complexity and, as you said, exotic and endemic differences). However, Alkoth is surrounded by marshlands, if I recall correctly - and the slash-and-burn agriculture aspect seems also covered by deities like Veskarthan (who may not be Lodril exactly, but at least is identified with a version of him).

[RHW]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I absolutely love this perspective (it integrates the Fire element nicely, and adds complexity and, as you said, exotic and endemic differences). However, Alkoth is surrounded by marshlands...

Yes, that's problematic. But it also explains the expansionist nature of Alkoth. Ever since the treacherous Darjinni conspired with the Oslir to flood the Alkothi's original farmlands, they've had to conquer lands in Vanch and Darjin to secure enough fields to support their population. Someday the foul Marshland Curse will be lifted, but until then Shargash the Red's war abilities let them devour the territory around them, securing land where Shargash's true power, his agricultural magic, can hold sway.

All hail Shargash!

[Leingod]

I guess that explains why in Six Ages Shargash seems to have a thing for "fertile" goddesses, having married and tossed aside a Rice Wife and a River Wife before trying to then get with Nyalda (Hyaloring Ernalda) to be his Green Wife:

Quote

Next came Shargash the Demon Sun, who said "You will be the Green Wife, and nurture my warriors." Nyalda looked at the Demon Sun's green palace and saw its locked doors, behind which he maintained shrines to his previous wives. "Did you say the same to Rice when you wooed her? To River, when you cast Rice aside?" Smelling betrayal all around, Nyalda saw that Shargash had also broken with and attacked his second wife. So by setting a trembling in motion along her banks, she summoned the River Wife, who rose up to wash the demon suitor away.

When you perform the Ritual in-game you can also deal with this station of the myth by summoning the Rice Wife instead, who threatens him with hunger.

[Joerg]

We did get a description of Shargash from the Alkothi view in Enclosure. While not official, it seems to have resulted from an Alkothi campaign by the "Seattle Farmer Collective".

Personally, I see Shargash as the impossible combination of Alkor the Green, Lord of the Southern City and steadfast then tumbling southern Planetary Sun, and Shadzor, a three-eyed underworld demon who merged with the falling sun keeping Umath in a wrestler's hold. I am not exactly clear how Shadzor got attracted to the probably quite flayed body of Alkor, but somehow they joined, and began ripping strangled Umath into more pieces than could recombine. Those pieces that did re-combine may have resulted in the sons of Umath, or may have joined them half a continent away.

This "son of Yelm" business sounds quite screwy to me. I find it a lot more likely that there were nine or more emanations of Aether, each sitting atop a ziggurat or natural elevation above their cities, and another one at the Celestial Court with a demigod representative/avatar in Raibanth.

And one Harono (and possibly a few brothers/sons of his) in or around Esrolia, possibly including one Jagrekriand.

 

Tolat being more sophisticated... not so sure about that.

What do we have:

Tolat as the war god of the no longer innocent Artmali.

Tolat as the war god of the Zaranistangi on their journey east and north, finally to Melib and continental Teshnos (and then into Ralios and Slontos).

Tolat as the husband god of his daughter-wives on Trowjang, the ancestors of whom probably fell out of the sky when that piece of sky went down.
Vorthan as the Jonating war god of the crimson blade and cruel demeanor.

Tolat as one of the twins in Malkioni theogony, with a temple at Hrelar Amali. Making me wonder about possible Vadeli connections for both Tolat and Annilla.

 

Back to Shargash. The bit quoted by  @Leingod makes me think of how his divorces might have cost the god of the city - the fertile Green God and the Rice goddess, the flayed Red God and the struggle (and eventual wedding) with the river (or its long-legged incarnation), and the charring when he ended that, pulled up the Shadzorings from Hell to destroy everything.

[RHW]

15 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I guess that explains why in Six Ages Shargash seems to have a thing for "fertile" goddesses, having married and tossed aside a Rice Wife and a River Wife before trying to then get with Nyalda (Hyaloring Ernalda) to be his Green Wife:

When you perform the Ritual in-game you can also deal with this station of the myth by summoning the Rice Wife instead, who threatens him with hunger.

If we accept my theory that Shargash started as a slash-and-burn agriculture god, his first wife, the Rice Wife, would have been the goddess of dry rice. The rise of the River Wife is what forced Alkoth to adopt wet rice farming close to home, while still preferring dry rice farming in conquered lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upland_rice

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

We did get a description of Shargash from the Alkothi view in Enclosure. While not official, it seems to have resulted from an Alkothi campaign by the "Seattle Farmer Collective".

If I recall correctly, a small group of us (including a few from the Seattle Farmer's Collective) were working on a LARP concept set in/around Alkoth at the time of Jannisor's war, ca. 1995. LARP never fully fleshed out, but some of the background informed the development of Enclosure.

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

What I am rather saying is that I strongly suspect that they have a more nuanced and expanded view of not only Shargash's actions, functions, and qualities, but also his motivations.

I'm not sure "nuanced" is the right word.  More like they get him "in the flesh", as it were, particularly when he is in the Underworld in his city (Alkoth of course being part of the Underworld, too).  When you live with your demonic god, you know him all too well.

[JonL]

Shargash ate "all" that lived, for those he ate would join Bjiff in the Underworld to await the hour of justice and the new day to come.

Those who fell before the standard of Kurzuktum are gone, and their names forgotten. 

Shargash was thus the great savior of all that died by his hand.

Edited April 25, 2019 by JonL

[soltakss]

On 4/24/2019 at 3:23 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

For one, I wonder how the Alkothi view the relation between Shargash and Yelm. Do they secretly hold him as high as Yelm, or do they play up the "filial piety" aspect of things, by emphasizing that the reason why Shargash destroyed the world after Yelm died was due to grief/rage, or possibly to prepare/purify the world for his father's return?

Oh, there is no secret at all. Alkothi hold Shargash as high as Yelm, or even higher.

For them Shargash is the Warrior, Avenger, King of the Underworld, City God and Ruler God.

Rather than Yelm Maggotliege, they worship the Black King, or Shargash in the Underworld. Rather than Yelm the Emperor, they worship Shargash the Conqueror.