Sorcery: The Magic Rune

[Austin]

So I've been re-reading over p.382-390 of the Sorcery chapter and I'm trying to figure out how the rules indicate the Magic Rune works. Previously, I thought that it was similar to how the Magic Rune is treated in the descriptions of Rune magic, where the sorcerer could substitute any other Rune when that symbol appeared in the spell description. However, I think that assumption was in error because I'm not finding an actual statement of that in the rules text. Am I missing something?

The spells this is relevant for are: Castback, Drain Soul, Magic Point Enchantment, Neutralize Magic, Pierce Veil, and Protective Circle.

Page 382 has a sidebar describing the Magic Rune as a Condition Rune, rather than an Element, Power, or Form. This led (leads?) me to believe it was not a Rune which sorcerers could normally master. Although the Malkioni are noted as having mastered the Magic Rune on page 389; I wasn't sure how to understand this, and just sort of hand-waved it away as irrelevant for the time being because the Malkioni and Aeolianism entries seem incomplete for use by players without a good deal of GM improvisation. Now I'm not so sure.

Can sorcerers master the Magic Rune in the same sense that they master the Beast or Darkness Runes? Does it have associated Runes? Is mastery of this Rune necessary for casting the above spells? etc. is what's wandering through my head.

[metcalph]

19 minutes ago, Crel said:

So I've been re-reading over p.382-390 of the Sorcery chapter and I'm trying to figure out how the rules indicate the Magic Rune works. Previously, I thought that it was similar to how the Magic Rune is treated in the descriptions of Rune magic, where the sorcerer could substitute any other Rune when that symbol appeared in the spell description. However, I think that assumption was in error because I'm not finding an actual statement of that in the rules text. Am I missing something?

p391 under Spell Name: Runes and Techniques used.

19 minutes ago, Crel said:

Can sorcerers master the Magic Rune in the same sense that they master the Beast or Darkness Runes? Does it have associated Runes? Is mastery of this Rune necessary for casting the above spells? etc. is what's wandering through my head.

IMO the Magic Rune breaks down into the Six Techniques of Sorcery (Command etc.).

[Kloster]

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

IMO the Magic Rune breaks down into the Six Techniques of Sorcery (Command etc.).

Nice way of reading it. I like it.

[Austin]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p391 under Spell Name: Runes and Techniques used.

IMO the Magic Rune breaks down into the Six Techniques of Sorcery (Command etc.).

Ack, I feel dumb. Thanks.

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:46 PM, metcalph said:

p391 under Spell Name: Runes and Techniques used.

IMO the Magic Rune breaks down into the Six Techniques of Sorcery (Command etc.).

While I do get the second idea (and thus, I'd say that having mastered the Magic Rune, you'd get access to all 6 techniques as mastered... but that's a bit of a cheat! ), the use of the Magic Rune as a Rune that can be replaced by any other is just silly!

Attract Magic should actually require the Magic Rune, and having mastered any other Rune doesn't make sense for this spell! Now, if you had Attract Magic with the Air Rune, I'd think that the spell would only attract Air Rune spells.... Castback the same.

Magic Point Enchantment??? I don't understand how any other Rune would be appropriate for this!

Etc Etc.....

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

While I do get the second idea (and thus, I'd say that having mastered the Magic Rune, you'd get access to all 6 techniques as mastered... but that's a bit of a cheat! ), the use of the Magic Rune as a Rune that can be replaced by any other is just silly!

It is just a place-holder that looks nicer than "any rune".

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Attract Magic should actually require the Magic Rune, and having mastered any other Rune doesn't make sense for this spell! Now, if you had Attract Magic with the Air Rune, I'd think that the spell would only attract Air Rune spells.... Castback the same.

So you actually want to make it harder to cast magic-affecting spells by not allowing any rune to stand in for everything?

RAW tells us it is enough to have mastered any rune to use these spells. Your proposal makes a sorcerer use up one of his slots for the Magic Rune.

 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Magic Point Enchantment??? I don't understand how any other Rune would be appropriate for this!

Fertility would be the most appropriate - after all MP are a measure for mana, emanations of Life. But again, magic touches all runes, and vice versa, so having mastered any old rune provides sufficient insight into the make-up of Creation to cast this spell.

 

 

[jps]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Attract Magic should actually require the Magic Rune, and having mastered any other Rune doesn't make sense for this spell! Now, if you had Attract Magic with the Air Rune, I'd think that the spell would only attract Air Rune spells.... Castback the same.

I didn't originally read it this way but it makes sense, I like it.

 

On 4/26/2019 at 12:24 PM, Crel said:

Can sorcerers master the Magic Rune in the same sense that they master the Beast or Darkness Runes? Does it have associated Runes? Is mastery of this Rune necessary for casting the above spells? etc. is what's wandering through my head.

Malkioni are especially powerful sorcerers we'll have to wait for a supplement to be sure in the meantime, I'd say that what Malkioni sorcerers can achieve doesn't mean that any other sorcerers can do the same.

[Austin]

51 minutes ago, jps said:

On 4/26/2019 at 5:24 AM, Crel said:

Can sorcerers master the Magic Rune in the same sense that they master the Beast or Darkness Runes? Does it have associated Runes? Is mastery of this Rune necessary for casting the above spells? etc. is what's wandering through my head.

Malkioni are especially powerful sorcerers we'll have to wait for a supplement to be sure in the meantime, I'd say that what Malkioni sorcerers can achieve doesn't mean that any other sorcerers can do the same

Keep in mind these thoughts were going while I'd boinked the fragment @metcalph quoted on p.391 out of my memory. Though, I do look forward to that mystic, magic day we get the sorcery supplement. Wonder if "sorcery rules" will become the next "heroquest rules" type wishlist item, after the Gamemaster's Guide happens.

[jps]

I certainly hope so  

[Shiningbrow]

15 minutes ago, Crel said:

Keep in mind these thoughts were going while I'd boinked the fragment @metcalph quoted on p.391 out of my memory. Though, I do look forward to that mystic, magic day we get the sorcery supplement. Wonder if "sorcery rules" will become the next "heroquest rules" type wishlist item, after the Gamemaster's Guide happens.

I believe it's been confirmed that Sorcery will get a good look in in the GoG with regards the various cults that strongly use them, and the GMG when it happens. Chaosium are aware that at the moment it's lacking meat, and that a lot of people want to see more.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It is just a place-holder that looks nicer than "any rune".

:Summon Species" has "+ [Rune or Runes]". "Neutralize Rune" has "+[Rune]" .  So, two counter examples to the argument. But, yes, it would look nicer.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

So you actually want to make it harder to cast magic-affecting spells by not allowing any rune to stand in for everything?

RAW tells us it is enough to have mastered any rune to use these spells. Your proposal makes a sorcerer use up one of his slots for the Magic Rune.

Yes, I would want to make it harder by not allowing any rune to stand in for everything. The Magic Rune stands in for all magic.

If we look at Rune Magic, you need to cast using the Rune of the deity associated with the spell. Most times, not an issue, because most initiates will have a high rating for their deity. But, if you take an Associated cult's Rune Spell, then you need to cast using a Rune of that cult.

I don't consider it a "use up"... it's an important Rune in its own right, and has important applications. If you want access to those applications, master the Rune! These are the Magic relevant spells, and the Magic Rune is very appropriate.

I think it's been designed this way. Most things in RQ require making sacrifices (a "you can't have it all" approach). Make those choices!

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Fertility would be the most appropriate - after all MP are a measure for mana, emanations of Life. But again, magic touches all runes, and vice versa, so having mastered any old rune provides sufficient insight into the make-up of Creation to cast this spell.

I'd actually suggest, if you could effectively twin Fertility into the matrix, it could regenerate MPs on its own! (How? I have no idea... If that were given, I'd think Fertility would be one of the first sorcerers would get their hands on!)

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

:Summon Species" has "+ [Rune or Runes]". "Neutralize Rune" has "+[Rune]" .  So, two counter examples to the argument. But, yes, it would look nicer.

Those spells require specific (or inferred) runic knowledge of the species or rune to be summoned or netutralised.  For example, Neutralise Air requires a Storm Rune knowledge, one which cannot be replaced by any other rune.  This is a different case from a sorcery spell with a magic rune as a requirement.