Breaking a geas

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So a RQ2 Rune Lord of Lhankor Mhy (a cult position that in all likelihood doesn't exist in RQG) becomes a source of sorcery in RQG? Looks like a flawed argument.

All runemasters of Lhankor Mhy know and teach sorcery.  They wouldn't be runemasters if they didn't.

 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Discredit him as a source of sorcery, or at least combat-oriented sorcery

Except that I already did that the first time I mentioned him and the knowledgeable mention of him didn't actually discredit him.  So why mention him again given that it didn't add anything.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Nice to toss into a debate, but that definition of sorcery and the one in RQG don't go well together. In that case, the Alchemy skill and all of its products are sorcery.

Alchemy derives from the Stasis Rune (RQG p14).  Any :Lhankoring studying Alchemy would have learned the Stasis Rune technique..  Any Alchemical spells they would know would be based on the Stasis Rune.  Hence a Lhankoring would have no problem is believing that Alchemy is sorcery.

[metcalph]

And the references for Sword Sage (Gloranthan rather than RQG)

Hevduran was a scholar who became so outraged
about the foes disturbing him that he finally took up
weapons himself. He even wrote the first book about
fighting techniques. Most Lhankor Mhy worshippers
consider this subcult to be perverse and some sort of
Orlanthi bastardization of their pure ideals, but when
enemies come those same folks appreciate these individuals
as defenders of the innermost shrines against invasive
forces.

Book of Heortling Mythology p179

Sylthi (small city [in Esrolia - PHM]): This city is home to the
ancient Hevduran Dege temple of Lhankor
Mhy, whose scholars are known for their
dangerously aggressive pursuit of knowledge.

Guide to Glorantha p258

 

[Shiningbrow]

59 minutes ago, metcalph said:

All runemasters of Lhankor Mhy know and teach sorcery.  They wouldn't be runemasters if they didn't

You have an awesomely great canonical source for this extreme claim?

It does, after all, contradict basically everything ever written for RQ about LM.

 

[Noita]

There used to be two Sword Sages in Pavis. My Sword Sage pc Deep Derrik was exiled recently. Bastards. He was taught at the Hevduran school in Nochet, where he learned various scorcery spells, combat magic and skills , like how to debate whilst stabbing argumentative Sartarites in the foot.

Sword Sages were mentioned in Cults of Prax.

[PhilHibbs]

46 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

You have an awesomely great canonical source for this extreme claim?

It does, after all, contradict basically everything ever written for RQ about LM.

 

I think it's a reasonable deduction. All LM initiates learn sorcery. Rune Masters teach cult magic to initiates. Therefore all LM Rune Masters teach sorcery. Sure, there may be a few exceptions where a scholar has devoted their studies mostly to non-magical skills but I think that would be rare.

[davecake]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

This discussion about sorcery in the cult of Lhankor Mhy might be better placed in a separate thread

It should be, but I think there is not enough left to sustain one. 

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Except that one is a Rune Lord (which is also called a Sword Sage and another is a Rune Lord-Priest.  Ergo Two Sword Sages.

Except a Rune Lord and a Sword Sage are explicitly not usually the same thing - the discussion of Rune Lord status in Cults of Prax is mostly about clarifying that most of the time, Rune Lords are not fighters. You could take the text to imply that there are Sword Sages specifically in Pavis, but literally almost no where else - but in any case assuming that Rune Lord status in RQ2 implies anything about more modern texts, and then implying a melee fighter is therefore always a user of combat sorcery, is a chain of dubious implication that gets us nowhere. 

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Lhankor Mhy is explicitly a god of knowledge which is sorcery.

Lhankor Mhy is explicitly a god of knowledge which is *sometimes* sorcery. 

As I said earlier, I think Sword Sages are a small minority almost anywhere, and Sword Sage only means knows physical combat ability. Most Sword Sages are just sages who know how to fight in order to defend the temple and themselves - it doesn't imply anything more than that. 

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So a RQ2 Rune Lord of Lhankor Mhy (a cult position that in all likelihood doesn't exist in RQG) becomes a source of sorcery in RQG?

Where do you find that in RQG there is no LM Rune Lords? I've just checked cult description (RQG p 76) and there is nothing on it?

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

All runemasters of Lhankor Mhy know and teach sorcery.  They wouldn't be runemasters if they didn't.

According to cult description (RQG p 76), you can perfectly create a LM initiate without knowing any sorcery. And he can go to priest  (so rune level) with the standard allotment of spirit and rune magic. I personnaly wouldn't loose the opportunity to have my character know sorcery, but it is not mandatory.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

All LM initiates learn sorcery.

Where do you find this?

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Rune Masters teach cult magic to initiates.

Yes, this is part of the job.

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Therefore all LM Rune Masters teach sorcery.

See above post.

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, there may be a few exceptions where a scholar has devoted their studies mostly to non-magical skills but I think that would be rare.

Agreed here.

[PhilHibbs]

18 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Where do you find this?

Oh, you're right, it's spirit OR sorcery. Mhy bad.

[Kloster]

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Oh, you're right, it's spirit OR sorcery. Mhy bad.

No problemo.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

 Oh, you're right, it's spirit OR sorcery. Mhy bad.

Oh Phil let the professionals handle the bad puns...

[metcalph]

21 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You have an awesomely great canonical source for this extreme claim?

They are called the HeroQuest: Glorantha and RuneQuest: Glorantha rulebooks.

 

[metcalph]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

Except a Rune Lord and a Sword Sage are explicitly not usually the same thing - the discussion of Rune Lord status in Cults of Prax is mostly about clarifying that most of the time, Rune Lords are not fighters. You could take the text to imply that there are Sword Sages specifically in Pavis, but literally almost no where else - but in any case assuming that Rune Lord status in RQ2 implies anything about more modern texts, and then implying a melee fighter is therefore always a user of combat sorcery, is a chain of dubious implication that gets us nowhere. 

Do you have a problem with there being two Sword Sages in New Pavis?  I'm far from interested in describing a detail exegesis of what Sword Sage meant at some distant time in the past just that a) we have a fairly good idea what sword sage means now b)  the powers that be at chaosium have explicitly adopted a policy of backwards compatibility with RQ2 sources.  For them there's no fussing about original meaning of the text - Sword Sages have evolved to current definition and all sword sages in the past should be considered real sword sages as opposed to not-really sworcery-using lhankor mhy sages or whatever you think they are supposed to be.

Yes there's a disparity with Eparikondos but it's not an insurmountable or even unfeasible one.  Besides nobdoy ever accused the writers of RQ2 material of producing material that was well-thought out in every way.

 

20 hours ago, davecake said:

Lhankor Mhy is explicitly a god of knowledge which is *sometimes* sorcery. 

Nope.  Knowledge is sorcery. Worshippers gain divine magics from him as a Friend of Orlanth, a Son of Yelm or one of the Seven Mothers but that's a crutch to the True Learning of Lhaknor's wisdom and a measure of how backward a particular worshipper is.

 

20 hours ago, davecake said:

As I said earlier, I think Sword Sages are a small minority almost anywhere,

I am unaware of anybody ever stating that the Sword Sages were a majority or even a large minority.  You keep trotting out a variation of this line but refuse to go along with any actual numbers apart from a nod to GM approval which you can then look askance at,.  Two Sword Sages in New Pavis?  Plausible or not?  A Sword Sage temple in Esrolia?  Plausible or not?  I've already said I don't think there are any in Jonstown or Boldhome.  Plausible or not?  

 

20 hours ago, davecake said:

and Sword Sage only means knows physical combat ability.

I've already quoted from the Book of Heortling Mythology which has the tradition founded by a Hero in the Storm Age.  In the Age of the Vingkotlings, this supposed hero of Lhankor Mhy only teaches physical combat ability and no magic?  Nah, not buying it.

 

 

[metcalph]

19 hours ago, Kloster said:

According to cult description (RQG p 76), you can perfectly create a LM initiate without knowing any sorcery. And he can go to priest  (so rune level) with the standard allotment of spirit and rune magic. 

Upon initiation into the cult, the initiate is taught to
master the Truth Rune and the technique of Command.
Additional Runes and techniques can later be learned if an
appropriate book can be found or if a teacher can be located
and persuaded. Only cult initiates are ever taught sorcery.

RQG p389

Clearly learning the rune techniques are part of the Syllabus and since the acquisition of rune techniques requires Henosis 

To master a new Rune or technique, the sorcerer must
achieve intellectual union with the source of their magic (be
it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, or
whatever the sorcerer’s philosophy holds to be the case).

RQG p384

I think the argument that Lhankorings are not sorcerors to be rather weak.

[Kloster]

RQG p76: Lhankor Mhy cultists may start with up to five points of cult spirit magic or up to three cult sorcery spells. (emphasis not mine, but RAW).

RQG p76: Cultists trained in sorcery start as having mastered the principles of the Truth Rune and the technique of Command (see page 381).

RQG p73: If your cult teaches sorcery, you may start with up to three sorcery spells from the cult’s list. If this option is taken, you do not start with any cult spirit magic.

So, Lhankor Mhy initiates MAY (emphasis mine, this time) be sorcerors, by choosing having sorcery and not spirit magic at creation time. Of course, those choosing sorcery may learn spirit spells, and those choosing spirit spells may learn LM sorcery later. I see no prohibition, but LM cultists are clearly (at least for me) not automatically sorcerors: the 'Cultists trained' means that there are some that are not, and the 'or' means that you can have only one of the two at character creation time.

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

So, Lhankor Mhy initiates MAY (emphasis mine, this time) be sorcerors, by choosing having sorcery and not spirit magic at creation time. Of course, those choosing sorcery may learn spirit spells, and those choosing spirit spells may learn LM sorcery later. I see no prohibition, but LM cultists are clearly (at least for me) not automatically sorcerors: the 'Cultists trained' means that there are some that are not, and the 'or' means that you can have only one of the two at character creation time.

A Lhankoring that goes through life without knowing sorcery is akin to a College graduate going through life Fat, Drunk and Stupid.  Their God's magic is sorcery, their God's father was Mostal, they are exposed to sorcery as part of their initiation.  That a starting Lhankoring finds life easier if he starts off with spirit magic is hardly a refutation of Lhankor Mhy being a Sorcery God.

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

They are called the HeroQuest: Glorantha and RuneQuest: Glorantha rulebooks.

 

That's a negative, Houston!

Firstly, we're in the Runequest forum, not Glorantha - so references to Heroquest are fairly invalid. 

Secondly, Runequest: Glorantha (currently, about the only relevant source material for the current edition) in NO way suggests (or even mildly implies) that sorcery is *required* For Runemastery, let alone teach it!

[metcalph]

 

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

Firstly, we're in the Runequest forum, not Glorantha - so references to Heroquest are fairly invalid. 

Nope.  HQG references are valid for the discussion of the bigger picture of Lhankor Mhy.  An in-depth discussion would be out of place but merely referencing it is perfectly fine as it is an official chaosium publication.

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

Secondly, Runequest: Glorantha (currently, about the only relevant source material for the current edition) in NO way suggests (or even mildly implies) that sorcery is *required* For Runemastery, let alone teach it!

The material in the Sorcery section says differently which I have amply quoted from. You can only claim tere is no suggestion by pretending that that the whole section is optional when it comes to worshipping Lhankor Mhy., which is rather bizarre  

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Nope.  HQG references are valid for the discussion of the bigger picture of Lhankor Mhy.  An in-depth discussion would be out of place but merely referencing it is perfectly fine as it is an official chaosium publication.

Referencing for the world of Glorantha - fine. Using it as a source for Runequest rules - only useful as a reference, not as canon (obviously).

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The material in the Sorcery section says differently which I have amply quoted from. You can only claim tere is no suggestion by pretending that that the whole section is optional when it comes to worshipping Lhankor Mhy., which is rather bizarre  

Not even remotely bizarre, as it's not mentioned in the cult write-up. In fact, the cult write-up for LM opposes this (@kcloser has just posted the page numbers in the other thread). And nowhere is there a suggestion that -

 

On 7/4/2019 at 6:18 PM, metcalph said:

All runemasters of Lhankor Mhy know and teach sorcery.  They wouldn't be runemasters if they didn't.

This is the quote from you above... there is nothing in the texts (either in the cult write-up nor in the sorcery section) that hints at this...

[metcalph]

 

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Not even remotely bizarre, as it's not mentioned in the cult write-up. In fact, the cult write-up for LM opposes this (@kcloser has just posted the page numbers in the other thread). And nowhere is there a suggestion that -

Now you are just being dishonest and inflammatorily so.  I am not going to engage with you further seeing that you are on another trip to meltdown city.

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

 

Now you are just being dishonest and inflammatorily so.  I am not going to engage with you further seeing that you are on another trip to meltdown city.

 

 

It's not in the Cults write-up, and it's optional in the Cults section of the charges creation process.

One additional word in the sorcery section would help to clarify. It would take a good sentence or two in the cult write-up that would *drastically* change the meaning.

Please address the lack in the Cults write-up, not the tangent (and interpretation) of the sorcery section.

You made the categorical statement "All runemasters of Lhankor Mhy know and teach sorcery.  They wouldn't be runemasters if they didn't".

Big claims require big proofs. 

(Don't respond to the person... Respond to the argument)

[soltakss]

On 6/24/2019 at 1:25 PM, Imryn said:

I am not sure why you would chose this example. Of all the concepts from our world that have been translated across to Glorantha "celibacy" is absolutely the worst realised. In our world the whole concept is wrapped up in the christian churches hatred of women and desire to prevent women from having any form of control over men, and especially church officials. Distrust, and the desire to absolutely control women didn't start with the christian's; controlling reproduction by controlling women has been a key element in a great many religions throughout history.

It was meant to be an extreme example.

First, Unicorns have a binary relationship with Virgins, only Virgins (or revirginised Yelornans) can ride them

Secondly, what happens when you involuntarily break a geas? You are celibate and are forced, or trciked into sex? You may not eat eggs but are forced to eat an egg? You may not eat the flesh of a bird but someone gives you dried meat and says it is beef. 

In a Gloranthan context, real world religions have no real bearing, except as examples to compare and contrast. Some Glorantha cults have celibacy geases, nothing to do with the Christian Church.

I did not mean to cause offence and am aware of the sensitive nature, which is why I used a Spoiler. Apologies if this caused anyone offence.