Powered crystals and sorcery

[Brootse]

Do powered crystals only work for spirit magic spells? In RQ3 10% of the Power Enhancing crystals were attuned to sorcery.

[jps]

I would say most powered crystals should work for sorcery spells nonetheless, under the Power Enhancing crystals entries it is specifically stated that it only works for variable spells (therefore only for variable spiritual magic).

[Shiningbrow]

OTOH, I'd say that by definition, all sorcery spells are variable...

[jps]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

OTOH, I'd say that by definition, all sorcery spells are variable...

Strictly speaking: spiritual magic can be variable, runic magic can be stackable and sorcery spells can have different intensities (strength, duration, range).

[Austin]

I think from a game balance perspective, Power Enhancing crystals just have to not work for sorcery. Unlike Healing Focusing crystals, Power Enhancing don't have the "only double as many points as its POW" tag--and even if it did, that would still be insanely strong. As a GM, I can't imagine ever letting a sorcerer get their hands on such a crystal. On an average 4.5 POW in the crystal, with only doubling as many points as POW, it would still be an incredible tool. +4 or +5 spell strength to every spell you cast? That's incredible. With the way sorcery spells grow, that's incredibly strong. It's basically getting the crystal's POW as a strength-only inscription for all of your spells. If you allowed it for duration or range...

Oh, maybe that's how the Lunars enhanced the Moonburn.

Looking across the board, it seems that the crystals aren't written with sorcery or Rune magic really in mind. Is this another case of copy-paste? I'm unfamiliar with crystal text from other editions. Generally, at my table I'll probably rule that Power Enhancing, Healing Focusing, and Sensitivity crystals only provide effects for spirit magic. The other crystals feel generic enough that I'd let their effect stand across the board, probably.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I think from a game balance perspective, Power Enhancing crystals just have to not work for sorcery. Unlike Healing Focusing crystals, Power Enhancing don't have the "only double as many points as its POW" tag--and even if it did, that would still be insanely strong. As a GM, I can't imagine ever letting a sorcerer get their hands on such a crystal. On an average 4.5 POW in the crystal, with only doubling as many points as POW, it would still be an incredible tool. +4 or +5 spell strength to every spell you cast? That's incredible. With the way sorcery spells grow, that's incredibly strong. It's basically getting the crystal's POW as a strength-only inscription for all of your spells. If you allowed it for duration or range...

Oh, maybe that's how the Lunars enhanced the Moonburn.

Looking across the board, it seems that the crystals aren't written with sorcery or Rune magic really in mind. Is this another case of copy-paste? I'm unfamiliar with crystal text from other editions. Generally, at my table I'll probably rule that Power Enhancing, Healing Focusing, and Sensitivity crystals only provide effects for spirit magic. The other crystals feel generic enough that I'd let their effect stand across the board, probably.

It's only 1D8, and it specifically says "doubles the strength", meaning you do actually have to put in as many points as you want doubled (maximum, usually, of 8).

Yes, very powerful... but also incredibly rare to any worthwhile degree.

The fact that sorcerers can just inscribe anyway is a pretty powerful ability on its own, seems to suggest Chaosium is willing to allow high-powered sorcerers in the game.

I don't think it should in any way affect duration or range... but that's just my take. After all, those attributes don't change for Spirit Magic spells. (and, 'strength' is pretty much going to be interpreted as 'intensity').

 

ETA: "Balance"?? What's that? 😛

Edited April 29, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Crel said:

I think from a game balance perspective, Power Enhancing crystals just have to not work for sorcery. Unlike Healing Focusing crystals, Power Enhancing don't have the "only double as many points as its POW" tag--and even if it did, that would still be insanely strong. As a GM, I can't imagine ever letting a sorcerer get their hands on such a crystal. On an average 4.5 POW in the crystal, with only doubling as many points as POW, it would still be an incredible tool. +4 or +5 spell strength to every spell you cast? That's incredible. With the way sorcery spells grow, that's incredibly strong. It's basically getting the crystal's POW as a strength-only inscription for all of your spells. If you allowed it for duration or range...

When they did have sorcery versions of Power Enhancing Crystals, PEC had that same restriction, so it was only double up to the crystal's POW.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

I think from a game balance perspective, Power Enhancing crystals just have to not work for sorcery. Unlike Healing Focusing crystals, Power Enhancing don't have the "only double as many points as its POW" tag--and even if it did, that would still be insanely strong.

I'm sure that that is just an omission, yes they absolutely should be limited, and I think 1D8 is too high for such a powerful crystal. It's way more useful than Spell Strengthening, yet that only gets 1D4 POW. I suppose the 1D8 does make it slightly harder to attune, so maybe keep it at 1D8 and insert "up to half its POW rounded up".

I might even add "with the resulting spell capped by the POW of the crystal being used". So a 6 POW crystal it will double Bladesharp 2 to 4, but Bladesharp 4 becomes Bladesharp 6, and it does nothing if you use it with Bladesharp 6. That would make a 1 POW crystal utterly useless though!

I'm sure there are crystals out there that just double one specific variable spell, like Healing Focusing.

Edited April 29, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Brootse]

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm sure that that is just an omission, yes they absolutely should be limited, and I think 1D8 is too high for such a powerful crystal. It's way more useful than Spell Strengthening, yet that only gets 1D4 POW. I suppose the 1D8 does make it slightly harder to attune, so maybe keep it at 1D8 and insert "up to half its POW rounded up".

I might even add "with the resulting spell capped by the POW of the crystal being used". So a 6 POW crystal it will double Bladesharp 2 to 4, but Bladesharp 4 becomes Bladesharp 6, and it does nothing if you use it with Bladesharp 6. That would make a 1 POW crystal utterly useless though!

I'm sure there are crystals out there that just double one specific variable spell, like Healing Focusing.

Yeah, there are Healing Focusing crystals. And the normal power Power Enhancing crystals can't boost healing spells.

[Shiningbrow]

40 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yeah, there are Healing Focusing crystals. And the normal power Power Enhancing crystals can't boost healing spells.

I found that silly in the original RQ, and in the current. Basically, what's so special about a healing spell such that it gets its own crystal? Or the spell so different from all others (other than usefulness in to PCs)?

 

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

When they did have sorcery versions of Power Enhancing Crystals, PEC had that same restriction, so it was only double up to the crystal's POW.

I remember those being introduced somewhere... Doesn't really make sense to me, game world-wise. Crystals are the blood of gods. I don't think gods have their blood separate between spirit and sorcery... (same goes above for the healing focussing crystal... unless they're specifically from a Fertility Rune god ro something like that..)

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I found that silly in the original RQ, and in the current. Basically, what's so special about a healing spell such that it gets its own crystal? Or the spell so different from all others (other than usefulness in to PCs)?

I think the logic is twofold:

1. In-world, the blood of Chalana Arroy or Arroin can only be used for healing.
2. Game balance, healing should be available but not too easy and not too quick in combat.

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the logic is twofold:

1. In-world, the blood of Chalana Arroy or Arroin can only be used for healing.
2. Game balance, healing should be available but not too easy and not too quick in combat.

Using the logic implied by 1, it should mean that various other gods' blood would have similarly relevant properties. Humakt's blood provides effects on damage spells, Orlanth's blood with Mobility or Co-ordination, Yelmalio's for Firearrow, Fireblade, Light and Lightwall.... etc etc.

As for the Power Enchancing mentioned above - In the world of Glorantha, I'd imagine an 8pt would be fetching a good 5000L (or more)... far above regular pricing for other similarly powered crystals.

[PhilHibbs]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

Using the logic implied by 1, it should mean that various other gods' blood would have similarly relevant properties. Humakt's blood provides effects on damage spells, Orlanth's blood with Mobility or Co-ordination, Yelmalio's for Firearrow, Fireblade, Light and Lightwall.... etc etc.

There are few gods who are as limited as Chalana Arroy. All she can do is heal, that's it. The definition of "healing" is fairly broad, extending to mending relationships, even curing death. I'm quite comfortable with the idea that there is even more diversity of crystals out there, even that there are dead crystals that can only power specific types of spell, but I'm happy to ignore that level of detail most of the time for the purposes of game simplicity.

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Using the logic implied by 1, it should mean that various other gods' blood would have similarly relevant properties. Humakt's blood provides effects on damage spells, Orlanth's blood with Mobility or Co-ordination, Yelmalio's for Firearrow, Fireblade, Light and Lightwall.... etc etc.

As for the Power Enchancing mentioned above - In the world of Glorantha, I'd imagine an 8pt would be fetching a good 5000L (or more)... far above regular pricing for other similarly powered crystals.

Back in Elder Secrets the different type of crystals were all associated with various gods. (And gave many specific names)

Power Enhancing Crystals were noted as being associated with Storm gods (along with Sensitivity Crystals.)

The accompanying text does suggest that crystals can be even further limited. Mentioning Yelmalio's Toe Blood which was explained as enhancing the Light spell. (And two other crystals with the same name and powers outside the standard rules for crystals.)

I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable idea to limit some crystals to specific spells/types of spells, and one that can enhance the world when playing. Certainly Elder Secrets urged GMs to use more fanciful names rather than the functional names given by God Learners. So if you want a special Humakti power enhancing crystal that only affects Bladesharp, that seems a fitting thing.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

When they did have sorcery versions of Power Enhancing Crystals, PEC had that same restriction, so it was only double up to the crystal's POW.

Do POW enhancing crystals work with Rune spells using MP, like Heal Wound or Sword Trance? If they do, then I see no reason why not with sorcery.

But I don't think that they raise the intensity - rather, they reduce the amount of MP the sorcerer has to pour into the spell. As most sorcery spells require quite a lot of MP to be worth the while, such a crystal could simply reduce the MP cost, or make up for (edit: the extra cost for) a derived technique or rune. The additional boost to the spell's energy might make casting the spell harder as the sorcerer has to exert a lot more control than usual.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Joerg

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But I don't think that they raise the intensity - rather, they reduce the amount of MP the sorcerer has to pour into the spell. As most sorcery spells require quite a lot of MP to be worth the while, such a crystal could simply reduce the MP cost, or make up for a derived technique or rune. The additional boost to the spell's energy might make casting the spell harder as the sorcerer has to exert a lot more control than usual.

Oh, yes I like that! I think such a crystal should be limited - tied to a rune, maybe, and only usable with spells that require that rune (or wildcard Magic Rune spells).

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Oh, yes I like that! I think such a crystal should be limited - tied to a rune, maybe, and only usable with spells that require that rune (or wildcard Magic Rune spells).

That wasn't quite what I thought I said, but let's go with this. Each crystal will have two runes - those of its deity.

[Tindalos]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Do POW enhancing crystals work with Rune spells using MP, like Heal Wound or Sword Trance? If they do, then I see no reason why not with sorcery.

Well, it depends on if you'd count those as variable.

It could be reasonable to assume so, since they have varying levels of effect, and the crystal never calls out spirit magic spells only, so it should be possible. A 2 magic point Sword Trance becoming a 4-point one.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Back in Elder Secrets the different type of crystals were all associated with various gods. (And gave many specific names)

 

Oh yeah, I remember that now! (Been a looooongggg time since I looked at that book!)

 

12 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable idea to limit some crystals to specific spells/types of spells, and one that can enhance the world when playing. Certainly Elder Secrets urged GMs to use more fanciful names rather than the functional names given by God Learners. So if you want a special Humakti power enhancing crystal that only affects Bladesharp, that seems a fitting thing.

Yes, the different names does make it much more realistic. I recall the same thing with the naming of spells - instead of everyone having Bladesharp, there should be Humakt's Blessing, Orlanth's Strong Arm, etc etc...

[Brootse]

18 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Back in Elder Secrets the different type of crystals were all associated with various gods. (And gave many specific names)

Power Enhancing Crystals were noted as being associated with Storm gods (along with Sensitivity Crystals.)

The accompanying text does suggest that crystals can be even further limited. Mentioning Yelmalio's Toe Blood which was explained as enhancing the Light spell. (And two other crystals with the same name and powers outside the standard rules for crystals.)

I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable idea to limit some crystals to specific spells/types of spells, and one that can enhance the world when playing. Certainly Elder Secrets urged GMs to use more fanciful names rather than the functional names given by God Learners. So if you want a special Humakti power enhancing crystal that only affects Bladesharp, that seems a fitting thing.

It's a pity that they didn't reprint those cool names. Now the new players are only left with the Godlearner terms instead of Esrolian Rubies, Arroin's Tears etc.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Brootse

[Brootse]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

On 4/29/2019 at 11:48 AM, jps said:

Strictly speaking: spiritual magic can be variable, runic magic can be stackable and sorcery spells can have different intensities (strength, duration, range).

After reading this thread I think that this is what the writers meant. Only spirit magic spells are referred to as 'variable strength', so in RAW the Power Enhancing crystals only work for spirit magic spells. But as always, YGMV.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Brootse

[soltakss]

We played that they worked by boosting similar effects, so a Power Enhancer 4 would change a Bladesharp 4 to Bladesharp 8 and also a Damage Boosting 4 to Damage Boosting 8.