Shields... weights etc

[Shiningbrow]

In the RGQ main book, it says that shields are made of hide, wicker or wood...

But, what's the deal with metal shields?

I'm sure there were bronze shields in use. And then, obviously, for the richer and more powerful, what about iron?

What sort of stats would we be looking at?

[Bill the barbarian]

I was about to answer, but shields weren't made of metal, then it dawned on me, Google it which of course led to Wikipedia, so...

 

Shield

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This article is about the defensive device. For other uses, see Shield (disambiguation) and Shields (disambiguation).

 

Powerful Zulu chief Goza and two of his councillors in war-dress, all with Nguni shields, c.1870. The size of the shield on the chief's left arm denotes his status, and the white colour that he is a married man.^[1]

 

Wall painting depicting a Mycenaean Greek "figure eight" shield with a suspension strap at the middle, 15th century BC, National Archaeological Museum, Athens -The faces of figure eight shields were quite convex. The cited "strap" may be the ridge on the front (so denoted by the visible pattern of the ox hide) of the shield.

A shield is a piece of personal armour held in the hand or mounted on the wrist or forearm. Shields are used to intercept specific attacks, whether from close-ranged weaponry or projectiles such as arrows, by means of active blocks, as well as to provide passive protection by closing one or more lines of engagement during combat.

Shields vary greatly in size and shape, ranging from large panels that protect the user's whole body to small models (such as the buckler) that were intended for hand-to-hand-combat use. Shields also vary a great deal in thickness; whereas some shields were made of relatively deep, absorbent, wooden planking to protect soldiers from the impact of spears and crossbow bolts, others were thinner and lighter and designed mainly for deflecting blade strikes. Finally, shields vary greatly in shape, ranging in roundness to angularity, proportional length and width, symmetry and edge pattern; different shapes provide more optimal protection for infantry or cavalry, enhance portability, provide secondary uses such as ship protection or as a weapon and so on.

In prehistory and during the era of the earliest civilisations, shields were made of wood, animal hide, woven reeds or wicker. In classical antiquity, the Barbarian Invasions and the Middle Ages, they were normally constructed of poplar tree, lime or another split-resistant timber, covered in some instances with a material such as leather or rawhide and often reinforced with a metal boss, rim or banding. They were carried by foot soldiers, knights and cavalry.

Depending on time and place, shields could be round, oval, square, rectangular, triangular, bilabial or scalloped. Sometimes they took on the form of kites or flatirons, or had rounded tops on a rectangular base with perhaps an eye-hole, to look through when used with combat. The shield was held by a central grip or by straps that went over or around the user's arm.

Often shields were decorated with a painted pattern or an animal representation to show their army or clan. These designs developed into systematized heraldic devices during the High Middle Ages for purposes of battlefield identification. Even after the introduction of gunpowder and firearms to the battlefield, shields continued to be used by certain groups. In the 18th century, for example, Scottish Highland fighters liked to wield small shields known as targes, and as late as the 19th century, some non-industrialized peoples (such as Zulu warriors) employed them when waging war.

In the 20th and 21st century, shields have been used by military and police units that specialize in anti-terrorist actions, hostage rescue, riot control and siege-breaking. The modern term usually refers to a device that is held in the hand or attached to the arm, as opposed to an armored suit or a bullet-proof vest. Shields are also sometimes mounted on vehicle-mounted weapons to protect the operator.

Contents

• 1Development of shields
  • 1.1Prehistory
  • 1.2Ancient history
  • 1.3Post-classical history
  • 1.4Modern history
• 2Gallery
• 3See also
• 4References
• 5Bibliography
• 6External links

Development of shields[edit]

Prehistory[edit]

The oldest form of shield was a protection device designed to block attacks by hand weapons, such as swords, axes and maces, or ranged weapons like sling-stones and arrows. Shields have varied greatly in construction over time and place. Sometimes shields were made of metal, but wood or animal hideconstruction was much more common; wicker and even turtle shells have been used. Many surviving examples of metal shields are generally felt to be ceremonial rather than practical, for example the Yetholm-type shields of the Bronze Age, or the Iron Age Battersea shield.

Ancient history[edit]

 

Greek soldiers of Greco-Persian Wars. Left: Greek slinger. Right: hoplites. Middle: hoplite's shield has a curtain which serves as a protection from arrows.

Size and weight varied greatly. Lightly armored warriors relying on speed and surprise would generally carry light shields (pelte) that were either small or thin. Heavy troops might be equipped with robust shields that could cover most of the body. Many had a strap called a guige that allowed them to be slung over the user's back when not in use or on horseback. During the 14th–13th century BC, the Sards or Shardana, working as mercenaries for the Egyptian pharaoh Ramses II, utilized either large or small round shields against the Hittites. The Mycenaean Greeks used two types of shields: the "figure-of-eight" shield and a rectangular "tower" shield. These shields were made primarily from a wicker frame and then reinforced with leather. Covering the body from head to foot, the figure-of-eight and tower shield offered most of the warrior's body a good deal of protection in head-to-head combat. The Ancient Greek hoplites used a round, bowl-shaped wooden shield that was reinforced with bronze and called an aspis. Another name for this type of shield is a hoplon. The hoplon shield inspired the name for hoplite soldiers. The hoplon was also the longest-lasting and most famous and influential of all of the ancient Greek shields. The Spartans used the aspis to create the Greek phalanx formation.^[2] Their shields offered protection not only for themselves but for their comrades to their left.^[3] Examples of Germanic wooden shields circa 350 BC – 500 AD survive from weapons sacrifices in Danish bogs.

The heavily armored Roman legionaries carried large shields (scuta) that could provide far more protection, but made swift movement a little more difficult. The scutum originally had an oval shape, but gradually the curved tops and sides were cut to produce the familiar rectangular shape most commonly seen in the early Imperial legions. Famously, the Romans used their shields to create a tortoise-like formation called a testudo in which entire groups of soldiers would be enclosed in an armoured box to provide protection against missiles. Many ancient shield designs featured incuts of one sort or another. This was done to accommodate the shaft of a spear, thus facilitating tactics requiring the soldiers to stand close together forming a wall of shields.

Post-classical history[edit]

 

Two wooden round shields survived at Thorsberg moor (3rd century A.D.)

Typical in the early European Middle Ages were round shields with light, non-splitting wood like linden, fir, alder or poplar, usually reinforced with leather cover on one or both sides and occasionally metal rims, encircling a metal shield boss. These light shields suited a fighting style where each incoming blow is intercepted with the boss in order to deflect it. The Normans introduced the kite shield around the 10th century, which was rounded at the top and tapered at the bottom. This gave some protection to the user's legs, without adding too much to the total weight of the shield. The kite shield predominantly features enarmes, leather straps used to grip the shield tight to the arm. Used by foot and mounted troops alike, it gradually came to replace the round shield as the common choice until the end of the 12th century, when more efficient limb armour allowed the shields to grow shorter, and be entirely replaced by the 14th century.

As body armour improved, knight's shields became smaller, leading to the familiar heater shield style. Both kite and heater style shields were made of several layers of laminated wood^{[citation needed]}, with a gentle curve in cross section. The heater style inspired the shape of the symbolic heraldic shield that is still used today. Eventually, specialised shapes were developed such as the bouche, which had a lance rest cut into the upper corner of the lance side, to help guide it in combat or tournament. Free standing shields called pavises, which were propped up on stands, were used by medieval crossbowmen who needed protection while reloading.

In time, some armoured foot knights gave up shields entirely in favour of mobility and two-handed weapons. Other knights and common soldiers adopted the buckler, giving rise to the term "swashbuckler".^[4] The buckler is a small round shield, typically between 8 and 16 inches (20–40 cm) in diameter. The buckler was one of very few types of shield that were usually made of metal. Small and light, the buckler was easily carried by being hung from a belt; it gave little protection from missiles and was reserved for hand-to-hand combat where it served both for protection and offence. The buckler's use began in the Middle Ages and continued well into the 16th century.

In Italy, the targa, parma and rotella were used by common people, fencers and even knights. The development of plate armour made shields less and less common as it eliminated the need for a shield. Lightly armoured troops continued to use shields after men-at-arms and knights ceased to use them. Shields continued in use even after gunpowder powered weapons made them essentially obsolete on the battlefield. In the 18th century, the Scottish clansused a small, round targe that was partially effective against the firearms of the time, although it was arguably more often used against British infantry bayonets and cavalry swords in close-in fighting.

During the 19th century, non-industrial cultures with little access to guns were still using war shields. Zulu warriors carried large lightweight shields called Ishlangu made from a single ox hide supported by a wooden spine.^[5] This was used in combination with a short spear (assegai) and/or club.

 

Much more at Wikipedia...

[Bill the barbarian]

Note the third last paragraph where they give a little info on the idea of a metal shield in the time of European knights.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[PhilHibbs]

Beware when putting a metal rim on your shield, because you will lose teeth when you go berserk and start chewing it.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Note the third last paragraph where they give a little info on the idea of a metal shield in the time of European knights.

Good link.

I was thinking at least of adding the metal to the central boss and the rim, though... Or even just a thin plating over wood.

Full metal shields could be wielded by those with high STR (and probably DEX), especially with the magics available.

Thus, the question(s) still remain.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Good link.

I was thinking at least of adding the metal to the central boss and the rim, though... Or even just a thin plating over wood.

Full metal shields could be wielded by those with high STR (and probably DEX), especially with the magics available.

Thus, the question(s) still remain.

As thin sheet of metal on a shield had little effect on its strength (that on a hoplite shield was less than a millimeter thick) but may have aided causing a glancing blow to slide away - also affected by the shape of the shield. Virtually all shields of any sophistication were of composite construction, so a wicker or wooden shield might have a leather facing (and lining), and a wooden one a thin bronze facing. A boss and rim were effective, especially when using a shield offensively (which is why some ancient shields sported bronze animal and bird heads), whilst the boss helped protect the hand.

In RQ terms, the additional protection and strength is quite small, and already probably figured in with the shield's hit points. You can, of course, have your own additions, where a bronze boss adds a few hit points. However, adding this sort of detail is a slippery slope, as you might just as well consider shield shape: a conical or concave shield has advantageous over a flat shield. Perhaps not a good way to go...

Fully metal shields probably existed in our Bronze Age, and though many were probably prestige display items, others show apparent signs of combat damage. In RQ terms, they wouldn't be much more effective than wood, as bronze is a fairly brittle metal - especially over the required diameter - (though less so than iron). If you start magically strengthening a shield (using sorcery) then its hit points and capabilities depend on the power and duration of the spell.

[Shiningbrow]

27 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

As thin sheet of metal on a shield had little effect on its strength (that on a hoplite shield was less than a millimeter thick) but may have aided causing a glancing blow to slide away - also affected by the shape of the shield. Virtually all shields of any sophistication were of composite construction, so a wicker or wooden shield might have a leather facing (and lining), and a wooden one a thin bronze facing. A boss and rim were effective, especially when using a shield offensively (which is why some ancient shields sported bronze animal and bird heads), whilst the boss helped protect the hand.

In RQ terms, the additional protection and strength is quite small, and already probably figured in with the shield's hit points. You can, of course, have your own additions, where a bronze boss adds a few hit points. However, adding this sort of detail is a slippery slope, as you might just as well consider shield shape: a conical or concave shield has advantageous over a flat shield. Perhaps not a good way to go...

Fully metal shields probably existed in our Bronze Age, and though many were probably prestige display items, others show apparent signs of combat damage. In RQ terms, they wouldn't be much more effective than wood, as bronze is a fairly brittle metal - especially over the required diameter - (though less so than iron). If you start magically strengthening a shield (using sorcery) then its hit points and capabilities depend on the power and duration of the spell.

Thanks for the depth of answer!!

So - would facing with bronze add 1 or 2 points? And Iron?

I do appreciate the possible slippery slope, and this is RQ not Harnmaster etc, so we don't really want to get into too much detail.. but I do mention iron in particular as it's often given to Rune Lords (particularly of warrior cults). And so, would make sense to have stats for it.

We're also missing information regarding quality of workmanship (something I did appreciate in MRQ (iirc), and slightly kept with RQ6).

Others have mentioned that the Parry spirit magic spell should also add to a shield's HP, the same way that the various combat spells add damage as well as skill %...

[Eric Christian Berg]

I do wonder why the material of the shield doesn't effect its HP. There doesn't seem to be any reason to spend the money for a wood shield when the much cheaper wicker one has exactly the same stats. 

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, Eric Christian Berg said:

I do wonder why the material of the shield doesn't effect its HP. There doesn't seem to be any reason to spend the money for a wood shield when the much cheaper wicker one has exactly the same stats. 

In games I’ve played in it was because the assumption was wood as the base material.

Personally, I would adjust AP/HP of a shield based on its core construction. However, to use hide as an example, a hide shield would still stop more than leather armor; not so much because of thickness of the hide/leather, but more the fact that you still (generally) have active deflection with a shield.

SDLeary

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So - would facing with bronze add 1 or 2 points? And Iron?

It very much depends upon the thickness of the metal. Bear in mind that in many ways a shield with a major wooden component is likely to be far superior to a metal shield: lighter in most cases (an exception would probably be oak) and more resilient as the woods were chosen with less tendency to split - willow would actually expand, and potentially catch the blade. This is why the best shields mix wood, leather and a metal facing.

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

However, to use hide as an example, a hide shield would still stop more than leather armor; not so much because of thickness of the hide/leather

Leather isn't as good as hide, but it lasts longer and doesn't smell so bad... However, leather and hide was often used in layers.

Leather was often used as a backing not primarily for strength but to help keep the shield together and provide a water resistant backing.

[SDLeary]

5 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

It very much depends upon the thickness of the metal. Bear in mind that in many ways a shield with a major wooden component is likely to be far superior to a metal shield: lighter in most cases (an exception would probably be oak) and more resilient as the woods were chosen with less tendency to split - willow would actually expand, and potentially catch the blade. This is why the best shields mix wood, leather and a metal facing.

Leather isn't as good as hide, but it lasts longer and doesn't smell so bad... However, leather and hide was often used in layers.

Leather was often used as a backing not primarily for strength but to help keep the shield together and provide a water resistant backing.

Yes, true... poor choice of words. By leather in this instance I was referring to something like Cuirboilli: hardened, shaped, formed leather/hide.

SDLeary

[M Helsdon]

3 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Yes, true... poor choice of words. By leather in this instance I was referring to something like Cuirboilli: hardened, shaped, formed leather/hide.

Both leather and boiled leather were used in shield construction and as components; a cuir bouilli shield has been found in an Irish peat bog - which highlights a problem knowing exactly how ancient shields were made, as usually hide, leather and cuir bouilli would rot away. Fortunately there are a few rare examples of survivals in the archaeological record, and professionals like Peter Connolly who have fabricated replicas.

Hide was often used as the facing material; leather as facing and backing. Some shields were made of layers of hide and leather.

I'm wary of making absolute statements because in Glorantha the hide/leather of many different animals might be used (where ox was commonly used here), and hide from a rhino is going to have very different properties to that of an ox....

There are an awful number of variables in considering the capabilities of a shield, and I'd be wary of attempting to quantify these, because there will always be exceptions. It really depends on whether you are seeking an ultra-realism simulation or an adequate emulation!

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Beware when putting a metal rim on your shield, because you will lose teeth when you go berserk and start chewing it.

So that's why Martin Laurie`s fiction character Onslaught had iron teeth...

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Both leather and boiled leather were used in shield construction and as components; a cuir bouilli shield has been found in an Irish peat bog - which highlights a problem knowing exactly how ancient shields were made, as usually hide, leather and cuir bouilli would rot away. Fortunately there are a few rare examples of survivals in the archaeological record, and professionals like Peter Connolly who have fabricated replicas.

Hide was often used as the facing material; leather as facing and backing. Some shields were made of layers of hide and leather.

I'm wary of making absolute statements because in Glorantha the hide/leather of many different animals might be used (where ox was commonly used here), and hide from a rhino is going to have very different properties to that of an ox....

There are an awful number of variables in considering the capabilities of a shield, and I'd be wary of attempting to quantify these, because there will always be exceptions. It really depends on whether you are seeking an ultra-realism simulation or an adequate emulation!

Yes. I was orignally stating that IF I was to assume a shield (of a given size) of a material other than wood, that I would adjust its HP/AP to reflect that the shield would probably not be as effective as the wood one. I used "leather" (actually meaning cuirboilli) as an example, and was stating that I would not reduce an equivalent shield down to the level of equivalent armor because I felt that a shield in active use would also have some additional deflection value based on the act of parrying. 

Obviously, if we are talking about a static shield held in front of an archer, such as a pavise or ancient equivalent, things would be a little different.

SDLeary

Edited April 30, 2019 by SDLeary

[Crel]

You could maybe just do a quick and dirty house rule of buying "reinforcement" for a shield. Something like +1HP +1ENC for half the original cost of the shield, stackable. So pricy but not insanely so (since probably custom work), but quickly prohibitive due to the increasing weight of the damned thing. Then let the player describe what ways they want their reinforced shield to look like--metal coating, edges, seven-layered oxhide, etc.

So a doubly-reinforced Large Shield would be...

Oh. I see what @Eric Christian Berg was talking about prices-wise. A large Hide Shield is 25C for the same stats as wicker or wood. Harrumph. Maybe that's supposed to be L? But it's C for all the Hide shields...

So to amend the above, I'd suggest reinforcing wooden only--they're the only ones with enough starting structure to add atop or some such explanation. Then a doubly-reinforced large shield would cost 80L, and have 18 HP and 5 ENC. Probably require higher strength to wield, too... maybe +1STR requirement per point of reinforcement?

[Kloster]

11 minutes ago, Crel said:

So to amend the above, I'd suggest reinforcing wooden only--they're the only ones with enough starting structure to add atop or some such explanation.

I've seen current Indian police wicker shields, and they are very sturdy. The only (modern) trouble I see with them is the non protection vs fluids (e.g.tear gas). But they are up to the jobs to resist fights.