Putting out fires

[Bill the barbarian]

So, we have had a look at one of the pillars of infrastructure, the prison system, How about the fire department. Just listened to one of my fave CBC programs, Ideas. What's it about you ask... (oh behave Bill). Er, Ideas? If available to you on CBC or PRI give it a listen.

Anyway, last night they were talking about how fires devastated cities throughout history, Well, it starts me thinking that the warrens of Pavis would allow fires to spread rapidly. The many different peoples with different cooking habits and uses of fuels the multiple languages to organize, could cause a little chaos and lead to outbreaks of fire. The one good thing is the river flowing though and I would imagine a fire starting in Ingilli territory (the family in charge of river traffic that controls Riverside)  would be short lived, In Sartar I assume the cites and towns are not as bad as Pavis for multiple peoples with multiple ways of cooking, although their has been a lot of Lunars (with their weird ways) coming through. They don't look quite as bad as Pavis for crowding either. Mind you, they are usually built on hills, so even with a river the water would have to be brought uphill.

Now one example I can thing of in our ancient world was the Rome Fire Department. It was so powerful that the triumvirate that ruled the last republic had the head of the fire department as one of them. You know it has power. It also seems to me to have not been very effective (yes, Nero, I am looking at you, now put down that fiddle and pick up a bucket dammit!)

Of course, this is Glorantha. Areas with a strong water affiliation (along the Engizi) would have access to cult water elementals. Those with Heler god talkers (I assume) might be in better shape (they can call rain, no?).

So what do ya all think?

[kirinyaga]

As often in Glorantha, I think magic. Indeed, water elementals, rain, troll magic. Even fire magic (some can control it). I guess those temples/groups are traditionnaly in charge of fire extinction. And if they're not, peoples will naturally get to them asking for help when a fire starts.

[Bill the barbarian]

52 minutes ago, kirinyaga said:

As often in Glorantha, I think magic. Indeed, water elementals, rain, troll magic. Even fire magic (some can control it). I guess those temples/groups are traditionnaly in charge of fire extinction. And if they're not, peoples will naturally get to them asking for help when a fire starts.

Fire is an interesting thought. And makes perfect sense to a modern man.

Now yer average govmint boorocrat who gets approached  by this crazed looking (Oakfed shaman, or?) who is spouting some nonsense about how a salamander (fire elemental) is the solution to his fire problem could lead to interesting role playing. 

[Richard S.]

Probably only the very large, advanced cities like Boldhome, Nochet, Pavis, and most Lunar cities would have a permanent, organized fire department. In areas where sorcery is practiced, like the empire, I bet that there's probably a few minor ones kept on call with water or rain spells. Cities like Pavis or Nochet which are by large bodies of water probably employ water email, and in Boldhome they may use rain or storm magic.

[RHW]

48 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now yer average govmint boorocrat who gets approached  by this crazed looking (Oakfed shaman, or?) who is spouting some nonsense about how a salamander (fire elemental) is the solution to his fire problem could lead to interesting role playing. 

I think the Oakfed shaman approach to "Fire Control" is more like "Pay me a bunch of money and I will make sure a random wildfire doesn't destroy your town. Very dangerous, those random wildfires. Spring up out of nowhere. So dry here lately. I'd hate to see your town burn down for no good reason. Like, for example, if you got an Oakfed shaman upset. That would be terrible. 1000L should do the trick."

[g33k]

It's also worth noting that not all cities are identically built... Boldhome runs VERY heavy to Dwarf-made stonework, so is less prone to fire.  Burnables in Prax come at a premium, so I'd expect adobe & other brick to be more common than wood, etc...  Not that either city would be "fireproof," but I'd expect fire to be LESS of a problem than one might think at first...

And also, as stated...  Magic.  Water magic, Storm magic, Fire magic, Darkness magic...

Spirit magic, Rune magic, Sorcery.

Lots of non-Earthly means of firefighting!

[Bill the barbarian]

16 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Probably only the very large, advanced cities like Boldhome, Nochet, Pavis, and most Lunar cities would have a permanent, organized fire department. In areas where sorcery is practiced, like the empire, I bet that there's probably a few minor ones kept on call with water or rain spells. Cities like Pavis or Nochet which are by large bodies of water probably employ water email, and in Boldhome they may use rain or storm magic.

Considering Rome had the very first "real"* fire department and I use the term very loosely,  I am not sure there is such a thing commonly found in Glorantha. Perhaps in the east?

 * this is run by the gent I mentioned from the Triumvirate in fact which would make it about 1st century BCE

9 minutes ago, RHW said:

I think the Oakfed shaman approach to "Fire Control" is more like "Pay me a bunch of money and I will make sure a random wildfire doesn't destroy your town. Very dangerous, those random wildfires. Spring up out of nowhere. So dry here lately. I'd hate to see your town burn down for no good reason. Like, for example, if you got an Oakfed shaman upset. That would be terrible. 1000L should do the trick."

Most interesting, this is similar to the gent I mentioned early who would rush his crew to a fire and then stand his men down while he negotiated with the anxious owner the price of the service.

[RHW]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Most Interesting, this is similar to the gent I mentioned early who would rush his crew to a fire and then stand his men down while he negotiated with the anxious owner the price of the service.

I think an Oakfed shaman would never actually put out a fire for any price. They're more interested in propitiatory worship/extortion. Worship Oakfed and pay off his shamans and your town won't burn in wildfires. Don't and all bets are off. NOTE: If your town catches fire for some other reason, the Oakfed shamans will bring the marshmallows.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, RHW said:

I think an Oakfed shaman would never actually put out a fire for any price.

In my defence I did say similar:) extortion by any other name would smell as sweet (or at least smoky) But a very fair point in any case.

 

8 hours ago, RHW said:

the Oakfed shamans will bring the marshmallows.

but would they share?

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

Cities propagate fires well in the upper stories. The larger houses, especially the square ones with the light shaft in the middle, are basically furnaces waiting to be lit.

Cooking fires may be a lot less common than you might expect. There is a great likelihood that much of the cooking will be done in the streets or open courtyards, with fast food providing the most warm meals.

In Orlanthi cities, I don't think there is a difference between the militia and the fire fighters, except the choice of the champions.

[Ian Absentia]

Beware the "Yes, but magic..." solution to life's great obstacles.  Magic is another form of technology that allows improved control over the environment, but never total solutions.  Just as magic-augmented warfare still relies on frontline grunts, civil works will still rely on laborers, engineers, and technicians.  That said, I'd definitely want some Fire rune allies on my bucket squads for control and Water/Air rune allies for suppression.

I don't believe I've ever encountered an urban fire scenario in any fantasy game I've ever played (or a flood, for that matter), and it sounds like a great opportunity for both heroism and dastardly deeds.  We're all familiar with the competitive firefighting crews of early 19th century New York, right?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/early-19-century-firefighters-fought-fires-each-other-180960391/

Quote

“The volunteer firefighters of the early period are sort of the most virtuous members of the early republic,” says Winkle. “They're establishing themselves as manly heroes. . . with mottoes in Latin, hearkening back to the republics of old.”

As for structures made of stone being impervious to fire, think again.  There's plenty of superstructure that's flammable (roofs, rafters, interior walls and paneling, doors/shutters, flooring, etc.), not to mention all the stuff of everyday living inside. Whether or not a city is prone to fire has a lot to do with what you do inside of it, not just what it's made of.

!i!

Edited May 2, 2019 by Ian Absentia
More stuff!

[Bill the barbarian]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In Orlanthi cities, I don't think there is a difference between the militia and the fire fighters, except the choice of the champions.

and I would expand that to include a very disorganized auxiliary force of citizens (neighbours worried the fire will spread to them, altruists, press ganged individuals, passer-by hired by a shop owner)

 

7 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

I don't believe I've ever encountered an urban fire scenario in any fantasy game I've ever played (or a flood, for that matter), and it sounds like a great opportunity for both heroism and dastardly deeds.  We're all familiar with the competitive firefighting crews of early 19th century New York, right?

Nor have I, but when listening to the Ideas show on the radio of fires raging for four year, fires wiping out 2/3 of a city and fires requiring 40 years to rebuild or even causing collapses of states... heroic and epic in spades! Glad you got where I was going with this. And no, though off topic (or genre or something) do tell about the new york firefighters

Edited May 2, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[RHW]

Don't discount the fire fighting ability of Earth cults. A large Earth Elemental would be a great tool for creating fire breaks, dumping earth on burning structures, etc.

In addition to Extinguish, my version of Argan Argan also has some magic for suppressing fire.

SWALLOW FIRE (Rune Magic, Ranged, Stackable, Instant, 1 pt)  Allows the caster to inhale and swallow up to 1 cubic meter of fire or 1 size rating of Fire Elemental without taking any damage. 1 pt is enough to snuff out a Fireblade or a single point of Firespear or swallow a Small Fire Elemental.  Fire Elementals resist with a POW vs. POW roll. Each additional point allows twice the amount of nonmagical fire to be swallowed (2 cbm, 4 cbm 8 cbm etc), swallows a size category higher of Elemental or adds +25% to the resistance roll. 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

Ooh ,ooh I just went to the Runequest Forun Index and saw that Putting Out Fires thread is (insert rimshot here!) HOT!

[Ian Absentia]

4 minutes ago, RHW said:

In addition to Extinguish, my version of Argan Argan also has some magic for suppressing fire.

SWALLOW FIRE (Rune Magic, Ranged, Stackable, Instant, 1 pt)  Allows the caster to inhale and swallow up to 1 cubic meter of fire or 1 size rating of Fire Elemental without taking any damage... 

That's nice, but I'll lean into some communally-POWered Divine Intervention for something on this scale...

!i!

[RHW]

1 minute ago, Ian Absentia said:

That's nice, but I'll lean into some communally-POWered Divine Intervention for something on this scale...

!i!

Heler. For that kind of thing the only answer is Heler.

[Bill the barbarian]

 

4 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

That's nice, but I'll lean into some communally-POWered Divine Intervention for something on this scale...

 

A quick tip of the hat and a moment of silence if your into that kind of thing for the poor folk of Paradise.

(was going to insert a sad emoji but the tears on my face will have to suffice)

[Ian Absentia]

I was being cute, sure, but in addition to exciting scenarios regarding urban fires, but what about a scenario involving a stead -- or the entirety of Apple Lane -- facing the onslaught of a natural wildfire?  This is where the magical nature of Glorantha would really shine.  A communal sacrifice of POW for a Divine Intervention might be the only way of directing the fire around your home, though probably not stopping it.  And how about a wildfire in the chaparral in Prax?  Controlling the stampedes alone would be insane.

!i!

[Brootse]

42 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Beware the "Yes, but magic..." solution to life's great obstacles.  Magic is another form of technology that allows improved control over the environment, but never total solutions.  Just as magic-augmented warfare still relies on frontline grunts, civil works will still rely on laborers, engineers, and technicians.  That said, I'd definitely want some Fire rune allies on my bucket squads for control and Water/Air rune allies for suppression.

I don't believe I've ever encountered an urban fire scenario in any fantasy game I've ever played (or a flood, for that matter), and it sounds like a great opportunity for both heroism and dastardly deeds.  We're all familiar with the competitive firefighting crews of early 19th century New York, right?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/early-19-century-firefighters-fought-fires-each-other-180960391/

As for structures made of stone being impervious to fire, think again.  There's plenty of superstructure that's flammable (roofs, rafters, interior walls and paneling, doors/shutters, flooring, etc.), not to mention all the stuff of everyday living inside. Whether or not a city is prone to fire has a lot to do with what you do inside of it, not just what it's made of.

!i!

A city fire as a scenario sounds damn interesting!

[Brootse]

34 minutes ago, RHW said:

Don't discount the fire fighting ability of Earth cults. A large Earth Elemental would be a great tool for creating fire breaks, dumping earth on burning structures, etc.

In addition to Extinguish, my version of Argan Argan also has some magic for suppressing fire.

SWALLOW FIRE (Rune Magic, Ranged, Stackable, Instant, 1 pt)  Allows the caster to inhale and swallow up to 1 cubic meter of fire or 1 size rating of Fire Elemental without taking any damage. 1 pt is enough to snuff out a Fireblade or a single point of Firespear or swallow a Small Fire Elemental.  Fire Elementals resist with a POW vs. POW roll. Each additional point allows twice the amount of nonmagical fire to be swallowed (2 cbm, 4 cbm 8 cbm etc), swallows a size category higher of Elemental or adds +25% to the resistance roll. 

 

And Eurmal worshippers could form a bucket chain to save the fire with Hide Fire. And maybe carry it to the fire station.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Brootse

[Bill the barbarian]

10 hours ago, Brootse said:

A city fire as a scenario sounds damn interesting!

Yes it does and you can bet I will be inflicting it upon PCs at some point in time.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, RHW said:

Heler. For that kind of thing the only answer is Heler.

Supposing you would even start fighting against raging forest fires, Gustbran would be the pedestrian firefighter using well-controlled counter-fires to rob the flames of their fuel, and Storm magic can push the flames back onto already burnt territory.

Wildfires in the landscape are a catastrophic terror, and being pretty helpless in the face of that is normal. Praying for rain or going on an Aroka quest would be the normal reaction.

Fires in a city are somewhat different, as the fire does have to jump. You'd need plenty of people who know Extinguish on the roofs, dealing with glowing ashes drifted away from the main fire. Sand will be the main mundane weapon against the flames.

For a bucket chain, you need either a pond or a fast flowing and wide enough rivulet to make a difference against a fire.

As to the volunteering - if you are a guest in the city, you are obliged by hospitality laws to lend a hand in some way. If you are a resident, even more so. If your city is divided into neighborhoods like Pavis, cross-neighborhood solidarity will be less than intra-neighborhood solidarity, but you would help keeping the fire limited if your neighborhood is just one road away from the fire.

The worst firefighting cult would be Yinkin - the last rescuers always carry out rescuees and cats. Yinkini probably count twice.

[Ian Absentia]

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

A city fire as a scenario sounds damn interesting!

Off the cuff, I'd take a look at the Battle skill (RQG p.176) for an abstract approach to dealing with an urban fire, including the "Battle Results" table.  The "battlefront" would shift from district to district, with new sub-plots in each new neighborhood -- some quick 1D6 tables for obstacles and opportunities regarding people and events would be great.

!i!

Edited May 2, 2019 by Ian Absentia
Clarity

[RHW]

Rain or Snow seem to be the clearest rules based solutions. Assuming multiple Orlanth/Valind/Heler initiates and rune levels could pool their spells, 100 pts of Rune Magic gets you 10K radius of rain or snow, depending on conditions. Might need some Cloudcall to increase cover. Imagine every Heler initiate and Storm Voice in your tribe sacrificing for Rain then praying for a storm to deliver them from the fire, while everyone else tries to protect the Heler shrine and make sure the prayers aren't interrupted. Figure every Helerite is good for 3-4 pts of Rain and a Storm Voice could cast 15 pts or so. Orlanth Thunderous initiates could handle the Cloudcall.

[Cultist of Sooty]

This is something I wrote up a while ago for some character background in a non-Glorantha game, but it seems to me like it would fit in well in Glorantha with maybe a couple of changes to small details:

Once there was a fire who burned in a grate. When he was damped down to a little spark and he slept, he dreamed hungry dreams of the wood and thatch he saw through the bars of his grate. He dreamed of the wildfires that were his ancestors. "Just set me loose for a moment," he sighed in his sleep. "And I will feed my hunger. I will be an inferno."

 

One day the grate was left open and the little spark was free! He leaped from the hearth to the table, from the table to the chair, from the chair to the curtain. He reached out with fingers of flame to climb to the roof.

 

But a woman spoke and made him pause there.

 

"You should let your hunger be satisfied," she told him. "With what you have already burned."

"Why should I? My hunger is powerful and I would fill it."

"If you do not temper it, it will control you."

"Why should I care?"

"Because people will fear you. They will tear down everything around you that could feed you. They will bring water and sand to quench and smother you. Your flame will be extinguished. You will be cold and dead. You know this to be true."

 

The fire flickered with doubt.

 

"If this is as you say, why should I not blaze hot and hungry in the short time I have left?"

"You have a choice. If you temper your flame and walk with me, you will be more than a blaze that burns once and goes out. You will be many fires. You will be fire that brings warmth, fire that brings light, fire that gives comfort. You will be fire that cleanses, fire that consumes, fire that kills. When it is needed, little spark, I promise you will run free and hot and wild across the open plain. You will roar and your smoke and flames will reach up to the sky. Just choose."

 

The fire chose. When the woman walked away from the house, flames danced in her eyes.