Putting out fires

[Nevun]

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

what about a scenario involving a stead -- or the entirety of Apple Lane -- facing the onslaught of a natural wildfire?

Consider too. That in the environment of Glorantha, 'natural' probably means magical. I mean it may start as a mundane fire but any large power source like a big fire - is going to attract naturally occurring magical entities. Just as disease spirits are attracted to dead bodies (or untreated wounds).

I can imaging a big fire growing - getting larger. Then salamanders forming, to 'frolic' in the blaze. Spreading it. Feeding it. Certainly opposing any undines summoned to try to control it. They have short attention spans so left to their own devices, they'll eventually leave when the fun is over - when all the 'food' is gone. But bring undines into the fun and it could become a battle. Not to mention any special interest groups that may rock up to add their 2l to the event.

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, Nevun said:

I can imaging a big fire growing - getting larger. Then salamanders forming, to 'frolic' in the blaze. Spreading it. Feeding it. Certainly opposing any undines summoned to try to control it. They have short attention spans so left to their own devices, they'll eventually leave when the fun is over - when all the 'food' is gone. But bring undines into the fun and it could become a battle. Not to mention any special interest groups that may rock up to add their 2l to the event.

Nice!

[Richard S.]

I wonder how Oakfed shamans would feel about it. Would they encourage the blaze or help with the efforts to stop/control it? How would worshipers of the other lowfires or gods like Veskarthan feel? Surely there are gonna be some people who have different feelings about a whole bunch of fire spirits in one place than that they need to go away.

Edit: this is honestly one of the most interesting threads we've had here imo. Talking about how people would deal with more real-world issues in Glorantha is really enlightening. And talking about how issues like this could be used in-game is even better.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Richard S.

[Bill the barbarian]

38 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Edit: this is honestly one of the most interesting threads we've had here imo. Talking about how people would deal with more real-world issues in Glorantha is really enlightening. And talking about how issues like this could be used in-game is even better.

I do try my best to create good threads and then watch folk have at 'em!

I learned some of the secrets to thread creation by having watched (read lurked) the best for a couple of years with very few posts to begin. Really, throw a good question in front of this lot, fan the flames ( ;vo ) a little and stand back and watch 'em go. It's quite entertaining, Really!

Cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Edit: this is honestly one of the most interesting threads we've had here imo. Talking about how people would deal with more real-world issues in Glorantha is really enlightening. And talking about how issues like this could be used in-game is even better.

I am loving BRP central, myself 

This Page is honestly some of the best experiences in the cyber realms I have had since  pre-net days of Stadtel BBSs run on the fabled atari 1040st-—Sherman, set the way back machine to the 80s. The Rrrock, and oh damn can't remember the name of the BBS (citadel?) but it was the best ever and the SYSOP was King of the Popes (Hey Bald Dwarf, are you out there? C'com Dimitrius, I know your here). The conversations were long, short, airy, eriudite, hilarious... and now a massage from the swedish prime minister... slap itty slap itty slap... heated and often helpful. Especially if help was asked for! And best of all from around the world (often on the SYSOPs and his slow friend's dime). Hell there was a thread about super-string theory was easily as long as the Pavis and the three billion questions thread found in the Glorantha Forum!

Anyway should a praise thread be needed why doesn't some one do so and begin this anew there... You can quote me on that.

Oh hell I think I will do that anyway...

Done, a new thread has been created and it's meant to praise BRP central, head to the tavern, you can  ask anyone here for directions.

Cheers

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
Done, a new thread has been created and it's meant to praise BRP central, head to the tavern, you can  ask anyone here for directions.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Cities propagate fires well in the upper stories. The larger houses, especially the square ones with the light shaft in the middle, are basically furnaces waiting to be lit.

 

Sounds kind of like the earth rune imitating homes of the Sartarites and kin. And really most of the buildings of Pavis.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I wonder how Oakfed shamans would feel about it. Would they encourage the blaze or help with the efforts to stop/control it? How would worshipers of the other lowfires or gods like Veskarthan feel? Surely there are gonna be some people who have different feelings about a whole bunch of fire spirits in one place than that they need to go away.

Edit: this is honestly one of the most interesting threads we've had here imo. Talking about how people would deal with more real-world issues in Glorantha is really enlightening. And talking about how issues like this could be used in-game is even better.

Don't worry about Oakfed.. worry about Eurmal! 😛

[Bill the barbarian]

 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Supposing you would even start fighting against raging forest fires, Gustbran would be the pedestrian firefighter using well-controlled counter-fires to rob the flames of their fuel, and Storm magic can push the flames back onto already burnt territory.

I am definitely of the opinion that one would have to roll a world lore or cult lore (fire knowledgeable cults) or the Insight skill to be able to grasp the paradox (again that modern man has no probs with but a Gloranthan..?) of fighting fire with fire as opposed to the obvious earth or water. Perhaps a forester might get it automatically or with a very easy idea roll INT x5 Or even a Battle roll cou;d be used here as someone pointed out—I really like that idea of using Battle skill to take the fight to the fire, sorry for not remembering and giving proper credit? Ahh there he is, Ian Absentia. Great call!

What do you all think, is this wrong to think fighting fire with fire is not obvious?

 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

 Wildfires in the landscape are a catastrophic terror, and being pretty helpless in the face of that is normal. Praying for rain or going on an Aroka quest would be the normal reaction.

Good call. Hmm, Joerg,  would you in this case assume one need a passion roll to stand firm and not run or go fetal... Honour for instance, or Love (stead) if it's in danger of being burnt or some such appropriate passion. I could see wild fire being like a Dragon and HR such a thing.

 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

As to the volunteering - if you are a guest in the city, you are obliged by hospitality laws to lend a hand in some way. If you are a resident, even more so. If your city is divided into neighborhoods like Pavis, cross-neighborhood solidarity will be less than intra-neighborhood solidarity, but you would help keeping the fire limited if your neighborhood is just one road away from the fire.

 

Love hospitality! Though Pavis never struck me as a city of enlightened self interest. I could see Old side not really caring (to understate it, I believe the language might be a little more colourful) if Rich Hill was alight, but it the wind shifted...

"to the buckets Our bothers (freudian slip?) need us," might be heard.

 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

 The worst firefighting cult would be Yinkin - the last rescuers always carry out rescuees and cats. Yinkini probably count twice.

Meow!

9 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Off the cuff, I'd take a look at the Battle skill (RQG p.176) for an abstract approach to dealing with an urban fire, including the "Battle Results" table.  The "battlefront" would shift from district to district, with new sub-plots in each new neighborhood -- some quick 1D6 tables for obstacles and opportunities regarding people and events would be great.

 

Cool, very cool!

 

9 hours ago, Cultist of Sooty said:

<snip>

a story I like a lot!

</snip>

Wowsie, wowsie woo woo Pebbles
Schlepprock

Jinkies.
Velma

Pretty darn cool dood
me

As to Eurmal, I am going with Bootse's comment

10 hours ago, Brootse said:

And Eurmal worshippers could form a bucket chain to save the fire with Hide Fire. And maybe carry it to the fire station.

and everything thing RHW says on Oakfed sounds pretty good! (you try to argue with the mis...nothing)

Cheers

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
additons

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Ooh ,ooh I just went to the Runequest Forun Index and saw that Putting Out Fires thread is (insert rimshot here!) HOT!

What, so you're on fire today?

[Shiningbrow]

Given the current official rules for sorcery have Steal Breath, I think it'd be safe to imagine that a Steal Flame would be available, doing something similar - 3 cubic metres of fire (per round!) per level of intensity (2mps).

So, I wonder if this cube can be moved...

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Well, it starts me thinking that the warrens of Pavis would allow fires to spread rapidly.

Pavis is not a good starting example. Wood is scarce in Prax, its mostly stone and adobe construction, however Im sure there's some thatch. The big metropolises would have the problem

16 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now one example I can thing of in our ancient world was the Rome Fire Department.

I think we have to jump back further in time to the bronze age. Generally speaking many cities were devastated by fire and they just rebuilt on top. If there was fire fighting it seems it was generally ineffective if it caught hold. Regardless of leather bucket chains (if there were enough buckets) Bronze age fire seem devastating.

16 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So what do ya all think?

There's another consideration - The widespread worship of the Lowfires: Mahome has the rune magic of suppress oakfed:

1 point Ranged, Instant, Stackable

This must be cast on a fire. Each point decreases the fire’s diameter by 1 meter. If the size is reduced to nothing, a candle-sized flame remains. One point of this spell reduces the damage done by a Fireblade or Firespear by 1D6, or decreases the damage done by a fire elemental by 1d6. The fire elemental can resist with its own POW vs. the caster’s.

While not perfect, it would likely be helpful in stopping localised fire spreading.

Water elementals while obvious aren't so big and also will flatten stuff.

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Pavis is not a good starting example. Wood is scarce in Prax, its mostly stone and adobe construction, however Im sure there's some thatch. The big metropolises would have the problem

I think we have to jump back further in time to the bronze age. Generally speaking many cities were devastated by fire and they just rebuilt on top. If there was fire fighting it seems it was generally ineffective if it caught hold. Regardless of leather bucket chains (if there were enough buckets) Bronze age fire seem devastating.

There's another consideration - The widespread worship of the Lowfires: Mahome has the rune magic of suppress oakfed:

1 point Ranged, Instant, Stackable

This must be cast on a fire. Each point decreases the fire’s diameter by 1 meter. If the size is reduced to nothing, a candle-sized flame remains. One point of this spell reduces the damage done by a Fireblade or Firespear by 1D6, or decreases the damage done by a fire elemental by 1d6. The fire elemental can resist with its own POW vs. the caster’s.

While not perfect, it would likely be helpful in stopping localised fire spreading.

Water elementals while obvious aren't so big and also will flatten stuff.

 

 

Widespread Lay Member worship... not many would go up the ranks to have many points of this spell.

[Bill the barbarian]

45 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

What, so you're on fire today?

I would say we are. Yay! (and there was much rejoicing)

42 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Given the current official rules for sorcery have Steal Breath, I think it'd be safe to imagine that a Steal Flame would be available, doing something similar - 3 cubic metres of fire (per round!) per level of intensity (2mps).

 

Sweet...

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I think we have to jump back further in time to the bronze age. Generally speaking many cities were devastated by fire and they just rebuilt on top. If there was fire fighting it seems it was generally ineffective if it caught hold. Regardless of leather bucket chains (if there were enough buckets) Bronze age fire seem devastating.

Quote

alas, that's the problem. I found a couple of notes on the Egyptians but I did not get the sense of when. They seemed to have pumps and water engines, but not getting dates I could not say if this was .bronze or iron age, (I am betting Iron age.). Of course they have the Nile but the only fire I can think of is well within the common era, Alexandria. More devastating then many other conflagrations for the loss of the library.

The point I was making using Rome is that in the real world it would be another age before organized fire elimination. Now I know the analogy of bronze age Glorantha and Iron age Earth breaks down vey easily but bear with me, The point I was making is one could assume something like Rome would be a pre-requisite for organized fire fighting.. Notchet, Glamour, an eastern metropolis or a western metropolis might qualify, perhaps?

24 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Widespread Lay Member worship... not many would go up the ranks to have many points of this spell.

True, but another tool in any case. Mahome and her (?) gifts are of major importance so there will be some devotees of low rank taking this blessing.

[David Scott]

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

not many would go up the ranks to have many points of this spell.

As a associate goddess of Ernalda, suppress oakfed will be much more common than expected (full cult writeup coming in GaGoG).

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As a associate goddess of Ernalda, suppress oakfed will be much more common than expected (full cult writeup coming in GaGoG).

Remind me, Lay worshippers in RQ G can sacrifice for Rune Spells, yes?

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Remind me, Lay worshippers in RQ G can sacrifice for Rune Spells, yes?

No

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Remind me, Lay worshippers in RQ G can sacrifice for Rune Spells, yes?

No.

At least, not usually.

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I am definitely of the opinion that one would have to roll a world lore or cult lore (fire knowledgeable cults) or the Insight skill to be able to grasp the paradox (again that modern man has no probs with but a Gloranthan..?) of fighting fire with fire as opposed to the obvious earth or water.

The three Lowfires, each one hiding in one of the other, has this implicitely.

Fire-farming is an ancient hunting technology by which hominins have shaped their environment since they first managed to nurture fire. The trick with this is to limit the spread of the fire, and that is done with several small brands, so the concept is possibly as old as human language.

 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Good call. Hmm, Joerg,  would you in this case assume one need a passion roll to stand firm and not run or go fetal... Honour for instance, or Love (stead) if it's in danger of being burnt or some such appropriate passion. I could see wild fire being like a Dragon and HR such a thing.

Loyalty (clan, tribe) or love family certainly fit the bill. Fear Oakfed still might end up in your skill list.

 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Love hospitality! Though Pavis never struck me as a city of enlightened self interest. I could see Old side not really caring (to understate it, I believe the language might be a little more colourful) if Rich Hill was alight, but it the wind shifted...

"to the buckets Our bothers (freudian slip?) need us," might be heard.

"That *&%$ Goram still owes me three sheep. If he gets burned out now, I won't see them again this year..."

Motivation beyond "don't let it spread to our quarter" can be found.

 

Hospitality in mixed populations is not a clear-cut proposition, but it certainly can be invoked in such times of immediate need. The extent of the obligation you are supposed to feel may vary.

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Meow!

Yup.

 

[ChalkLine]

In Australia bushfires are common. 
They are faster than a horse, hotter than the sun and often cause tornadoes and firestorms.
The only method of survival is many individuals working the fire front and ready to flee at any time or simple avoidance. When the fire-monster comes usually you flee.

[Ian Absentia]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Pavis is not a good starting example. Wood is scarce in Prax, its mostly stone and adobe construction, however Im sure there's some thatch.

It really depends on the specifics, but New Pavis might be a fine example.

1. As mentioned earlier (and as you suggest re: thatch), there's flammable material inside fire-resistant construction.  A fire will often leave an empty, charred shell of stone and brick that's ready to collapse.
2. Is the brick fired or sun-dried?  Adobe and wattle contain significant amounts of straw or similar binding material.  Firing brick will burn out the impurities and make them generally more fire-resistant, but it takes more time and effort, and therefore money.  As is ever the case, wealthier people have access to better building materials, leaving less affluent communities more vulnerable to mishap.
3. Civic planning, permitting, and maintenance have a huge impact on safety.  The ramshackle of Badside, and probably Old Town and the Farmer's Quarter to lesser degrees, is ready to burn at the drop of a match (pun very much intended).
4. As long as we're talking about neighborhoods, privilege, and access to resources, more affluent neighborhoods will be defended against calamity more readily and vigorously than poorer neighborhoods.  While Old Town burns, a line of civic volunteers and magical resources is drawn at Riverside and Rich Hill.

I hope this doesn't seem too pedantic, but I think the real world phenomena are fantastic things to game, and there's so much more to carry over into fantasy than combat simulation.

!i!

[ChalkLine]

Funnily enough, I've been looking into thatching as a roofing material lately.

Thatch is quite hard to get burning, it's describe as being like 'a closed book'. Of course once it gets going is a different matter but it won't burn like a haystack. Thatch is quite light compared to other available roofing materials of the era so it can have lighter joists and battens. Pavis roofing is liable to be reeds which is unlikely to burn. Not because there is no straw available but simply because there's a lot of reeds nearby.

[Ian Absentia]

Okay, pulverised reeds in adobe and thatched reed roofing instead of straw.  Good and likely points in New Pavis.  And theyll still go up like matches in a sufficiently hot conflagration, natural or spiritual.  Perhaps less so in Storm or Sea Seasons, moreso during Fire Season when they're thoroughly dry.

Dang, now I need to add fire hazards to my environmental gases supplement.

!i!

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Dang, now I need to add fire hazards to my environmental gases supplement.

Ah yes, about your gases - carbon monoxide only crops up in connection to combustion and is not a natural subterranean hazard (unless you have regular fires in badly aerated caves).

Unleashed water is another hazard, whether underground (you might find a pocket of air to sit out the drowning hazard for a while, but you need to be lucky for that, and the air won't last forever) or above ground.

And the other three elements can come in as terrifying and lethal fronts.

[Noita]

All those riverside houses will have water spirits living in their reed thatched roofs, ancient fire dousing sprites and the ghosts of long dead fire hating fish... 

Cooking done in bakeries and not at home. Constant watchfulness for sparks and those doing the watching keeping captive darkness spirits in sacks.

Stone houses blessed with Mostali mason charms and the latest Lunar tricks...

What wood there is, is unburnable Aldryami holy wood.

Pavis had it covered, he knew what he was doing.

[ChalkLine]

17 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

All those riverside houses will have water spirits living in their reed thatched roofs, ancient fire dousing sprites and the ghosts of long dead fire hating fish... 

Cooking done in bakeries and not at home. Constant watchfulness for sparks and those doing the watching keeping captive darkness spirits in sacks.

Stone houses blessed with Mostali mason charms and the latest Lunar tricks...

What wood there is, is unburnable Aldryami holy wood.

Pavis had it covered, he knew what he was doing.

Yeah, I'd say your average hearth-spirit that is in every home will be on the lookout for fires at all times, day and night. (I think this actually features in Russian mythology)