How do you efficiently teach the game to one-shot groups?

[klecser]

14 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

canon-focus sounds like a sub cult of the bane of my first kick at gaming—the Rules Lawyer. They wrecked many a d&d game looking up obscure rules while holding up the games.

This is one of the things I like about this game. The rules don't need to get any more complex from the start. It isn't an "expansionist" RPG. Rules lawyers love Pathfinder and DND 3.5 because you just keep heaping on more and more complexity. I'm not saying this game can't get complex, because it obviously can. That is why I started this thread. As I explained in my first post (which some people apparently didn't read very thoroughly), I'm an experienced GM with a solid General knowledge of teaching games and helping people feel fun right from the gate. But there does need to be PARSING of content at the start so that knowledge can be gradually released so players don't feel overwhelmed at the start, ruining the fun (I think I also mentioned in my first post that I'm a professional teacher, so I don't need to be lectured on what learning is and isn't). Bill, I appreciate your insight in what needs to be parsed in RQ, because that is what I posted for in the first place. And I hear you all loud and clear: magic comes later, and that totally makes sense.  Thanks everyone who contributed on topic!

[Shiningbrow]

On 5/18/2019 at 9:18 PM, klecser said:

magic comes later, and that totally makes sense. 

I don't understand that... Magic is at the forefront of what makes RQ the game it is.

Leaving Sorcery til later - that makes sense! (and, if you're based around Dragon Pass with the current RQG book, it's also in-game logical!)

But Spirit Magic and Rune Spells should be right up front.. and they're incredibly easy to deal with.

[g33k]

49 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't understand that... Magic is at the forefront of what makes RQ the game it is.

Leaving Sorcery til later - that makes sense! (and, if you're based around Dragon Pass with the current RQG book, it's also in-game logical!)

But Spirit Magic and Rune Spells should be right up front.. and they're incredibly easy to deal with.

Yeah.

Postpone Sorcery, but DO feature Spirit magic & Rune magic; they aren't hard, and bring lots of color!

[Bill the barbarian]

 

On 5/18/2019 at 7:18 AM, klecser said:

Bill, I appreciate your insight in what needs to be parsed in RQ, because that is what I posted for in the first place.

Thank you  for the compliment, klescer.  Can't say every post I have had made are as good  but the good ones have something in common.  I try to read a post that I wish to reply to twice to make sure I got it, as well as the other posts around it to have a context Then I will craft a reply and then read the original and the reply before posting. I have had to throw away a more than a couple of posts realizing I was off topic or someone else had nailed it or...  With luck my post was worth someone's while. At the very least its good typing practice.

On 5/18/2019 at 7:18 AM, klecser said:

And I hear you all loud and clear: magic comes later, and that totally makes sense.  Thanks everyone who contributed on topic!

 

45 minutes ago, g33k said:

Postpone Sorcery, but DO feature Spirit magic & Rune magic; they aren't hard, and bring lots of color!

Damn now I have to answer in a negative after you heaped all the nice praise on me. 

Hmm klecser, what am I not understanding here? 

I would incorporate magic right away into a RQ RiG game (after all Glorantha is magic) but I would recommend that a new GM simplify it. Use as much of the rules as one can parse, and that the story you are telling for that session requires. At the very least I would say you would have to give every player some way of healing themselves, a healing potion if not healing spells. As stands, RQ magic in its current three schools (more schools to come later)  is complicated compared to most (if not all) BRP games and previous incarnations of RQ. So, yeah if a new GM wishes to simplify, I see no reason not to. If a GM wished to hand wave magic (until he or she grasps it better) and just "feature" spirit and rune magic (perhaps in the person of a NPC) and remove it from the nitty gritty of every day rules, this is drastic but it would not break BRP and should not break RQ RiG. That said, learning and mastering the magic system will pay dividends in gaming Glorantha imo.

Alas, magic (at least as a backdrop) is needed for Glorantha. It must be featured as g33k says, at the very least. The complexity is not needed. Save that for your tax forms or grading your students papers and/or behaviour. Hell, you paid a lot of money for the game. Enjoy it.

Cheers

[klecser]

I hear you, but I also feel like I'm receiving mixed messages. Either in this thread or another one, multiple people said that Rune magic should not be used in intro games because it encourages players to erroneously use what is a very finite resource. Since Rune points only regenerate at festivals/certain times of year.  I'm trying to balance this advice because my players aren't fools. If I encourage them to try it out, but remind them that points don't come back potentially for months, they'll understand that. On the other side of the coin, I see the point that blowing all your Rune points all at once is not how the game is played.

Spirit magic makes total sense to use since it is largely based off Magic points, right? 

[EpicureanDM]

2 hours ago, klecser said:

I hear you, but I also feel like I'm receiving mixed messages. Either in this thread or another one, multiple people said that Rune magic should not be used in intro games because it encourages players to erroneously use what is a very finite resource. Since Rune points only regenerate at festivals/certain times of year.  I'm trying to balance this advice because my players aren't fools. If I encourage them to try it out, but remind them that points don't come back potentially for months, they'll understand that. On the other side of the coin, I see the point that blowing all your Rune points all at once is not how the game is played.

My new-to-RQ players struggled with different parts of RQG, but Rune and spirit magic wasn't one of those parts. Just as you explained, they listened to my warnings that Rune magic was a powerful, limited resource. They treated it that way. I might have mentioned it upthread, but what they stumbled over was remembering that they had a slew of common Rune magic spells available that weren't on their character sheets.

[g33k]

17 hours ago, klecser said:

I hear you, but I also feel like I'm receiving mixed messages. Either in this thread or another one, multiple people said that Rune magic should not be used in intro games because it encourages players to erroneously use what is a very finite resource. Since Rune points only regenerate at festivals/certain times of year.  I'm trying to balance this advice because my players aren't fools. If I encourage them to try it out, but remind them that points don't come back potentially for months, they'll understand that. On the other side of the coin, I see the point that blowing all your Rune points all at once is not how the game is played.

Spirit magic makes total sense to use since it is largely based off Magic points, right? 

I think most fantasy RPG's have the idea of limited-resource magic and common / frequent-use magic.

Like... potions and scrolls, in D&D.  You know your PC can get more, but not this adventure... what they have in  this dungeon is what they have... when they're out, they're out.  OTOH, some classes have Cantrips that they can spam at-will (ranged-combat Warlocks with Eldritch Blast, I'm looking at you).

Not limited to magic, either; maybe in CP2020 your weapons-dealer could only get you 3 LAW rockets, and when you've fired them they're gone; sure, you con probably get some more, eventually... but not this mission.

Etc.

I don't think this is a hard concept for most gamers.

I don't quite understand the advice you were given.

 

[g33k]

On 5/20/2019 at 4:29 AM, klecser said:

Spirit magic makes total sense to use since it is largely based off Magic points, right? 

Yes, and MP's regenerate fully each day... at 1/24 per hour, and/or whatever fraction best approximates that.

 

[Jeff]

On 5/20/2019 at 1:29 PM, klecser said:

I hear you, but I also feel like I'm receiving mixed messages. Either in this thread or another one, multiple people said that Rune magic should not be used in intro games because it encourages players to erroneously use what is a very finite resource. Since Rune points only regenerate at festivals/certain times of year.  I'm trying to balance this advice because my players aren't fools. If I encourage them to try it out, but remind them that points don't come back potentially for months, they'll understand that. On the other side of the coin, I see the point that blowing all your Rune points all at once is not how the game is played.

Spirit magic makes total sense to use since it is largely based off Magic points, right? 

I sure as heck would have Rune magic and spirit magic in an intro game.

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I sure as heck would have Rune magic and spirit magic in an intro game.

Agreed. I mean, I can see running a simple combat sans magic for very new players, but unless the setting is like actual magickless medieval Europe, it's not really runequest without magic...

Edited May 21, 2019 by styopa

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

I sure as heck would have Rune magic and spirit magic in an intro game.

I had it in my Broken Tower game - and definitely benefited from its inclusion! That was a frustrating bit in old RQ2/RQ3 where even after you were initiated, it was difficult to get useful and evocative Rune magic.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I had it in my Broken Tower game - and definitely benefited from its inclusion! That was a frustrating bit in old RQ2/RQ3 where even after you were initiated, it was difficult to get useful and evocative Rune magic.

on a more than one use basis anyway, never did run or play rune levels or powerful sorcerers I didn't create myself (non char-genned) back in the day.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That was a frustrating bit in old RQ2/RQ3 where even after you were initiated, it was difficult to get useful and evocative Rune magic.

Ditto.

TBH, I was a bit worried about this iteration of RQ that possibly the "sacrifice" might be completely lost, and brought down to a "Every 24 hours" type of thing. I'm glad that players will still need to be economical in their use of Rune Points, and not be spamming the big spells... but also glad that the POW sacrificed isn't entirely gone forever (ie, recovery of RPs)

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

TBH, I was a bit worried about this iteration of RQ that possibly the "sacrifice" might be completely lost, and brought down to a "Every 24 hours" type of thing. I'm glad that players will still need to be economical in their use of Rune Points, and not be spamming the big spells... but also glad that the POW sacrificed isn't entirely gone forever (ie, recovery of RPs)

My players have been very economical and thoughtful in their use of Rune magic so far.  But since some of them are of cults not necessarily in Clearwine, they have to think about where/how they can attend at least seasonal worship services to regain those. That they are able to apply their RP's to both their selected special Rune spells and all the common ones is nice - if you need Lightning, and you know it, it's available; you need to stop some ghosts, you can do so; you need to heal a wound quick, you can do so.

[Pentallion]

Well, if you've only got one shot, don't tell them you've only got one shot and then shoot the first player who is not listening.  After that, the other players will be listening very intently how to play the game, I assure you

[klecser]

Thanks for all the advice.

Some more questions:

1) Do you feel giving players the text of the history of the Colymar Tribe from the Screen Pack is overkill?

2) Would pages 12-16 be a better "basic" introduction to the Tribe lands? (Population, Climate, Temples, Politics)

 

I have decided to run Cattle Raid for this first adventure.

[g33k]

44 minutes ago, klecser said:

Thanks for all the advice.

Some more questions:

1) Do you feel giving players the text of the history of the Colymar Tribe from the Screen Pack is overkill?

2) Would pages 12-16 be a better "basic" introduction to the Tribe lands? (Population, Climate, Temples, Politics)

 

I have decided to run Cattle Raid for this first adventure.

You know your group best, so what follows may be totally off-base...

In general, I (personally) would not ask MOST players to read a multi-page document.

I realize you don't need the lessons below (being a teacher yourself); but in large part I am answering YOUR query with suggestions & ideas for OTHER new GM's who may be more daunted.

As stated, I wouldn't try to get buy-in for a multiple page document.  I'd likely have multiple 1-page documents (each prominently titled)...

1. A page on game mechanics (possibly an extra page for mechanics of magic)
2. A page on Sartar & on the Colymar Tribe.  It can be copypasta from the rulebooks (or skipped if the players are happy to read from the books!)
3. A page reviewing the main enemies -- Colymar Tribes' Sartarite rivals & foes; the Lunars; the Telmori, etc
4. A page of Cults, the "everybody knows this" about all the PCs' cults and any significant NPCs' cults.
5. A page per  Cult for each PC's cult, for that player to keep with their PC
6. A page each for any (if any) RQG background outside the Colymar if someone's playing one:  Praxian, Esrolian, Old Tarsh, etc etc etc.  It can be copypasta from the core rulebook (or skipped if the player is happy to read from the book!)  (This is like #2 above, but for a singular, un-shared background).
7. Maps/pix - Glorantha (the whole universe) Genertela, DragonPass & surrounds, Sartar, Colymar lands, the immediate Tribal lands/holdings (i.e. their "home turf" that they know well), Clearwine; images of Sartarites (and images from other cultures, if being played).

Making it several 1-pager's creates more "bite-sized" infodumping (the risk of TL;DR'ing new players out is a real risk, or always has been IME).

I'd have 2-3 copies each of #2/#3/#4, and 1 of each image in 7, to share 'round the table, refer back to as needed.  I'd have #'s 1 & 5 (& 6, if any) per player, that they keep with their PC.

[Bill the barbarian]

40 minutes ago, g33k said:

1) Do you feel giving players the text of the history of the Colymar Tribe from the Screen Pack is overkill?

 

I would say the political stuff that g33k gives encompassed this question. I can't think of anything to add politically, still a little sedated from a trip to the doctor yesterday so I might chime in later should anything come to mind.. More to add off topic, but you have had enough off topic so have a look back through these threads. There is gold here.

2 hours ago, klecser said:

2) Would pages 12-16 be a better "basic" introduction to the Tribe lands? (Population, Climate, Temples, Politics)

Laminate them and put the in the centre of the table. Some one asks what the weather is or what not send then on a search for the info to involve them in your Glorantha (ancient heroquest which makes it a little more their Glorantha). 

 

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

You know your group best, so what follows may be totally off-base...

 

Can't get any truer than that!

klescer, if I contributed in any way to your confusion in magic, I apologize.

I try to give good advice to new GMs. I used to be one and the rudimentary nets and bbs threads we followed were very primitive compared to today. Thankfully, I came from a 60's/70's childhood love of war-games so parsing this amazing amount of data for rpgs was kind of easy. But I sure would have loved to be able to ask a question or two in near real time. Or seen your videos for that matter.

Cheers

[klecser]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

klescer, if I contributed in any way to your confusion in magic, I apologize.

You did not. And that has been clarified, so it's all good anyway!

@g33k and @Bill the barbarian, you are pillars of the BRP community.  Thank you!

Edited May 24, 2019 by klecser