can assistant shaman discorporate?

[Manu]

When I read the rule about discorporation, it is always the shaman. But can an assistant discorporate? I think so as he has all the necessary skills (spirit travel,...)

[PhilHibbs]

If they have the Discorporate Rune spell, yes.

[Manu]

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If they have the Discorporate Rune spell, yes.

How can they learn spirit dance, spirit travel if not discorporate?

And as a Shaman, the discorporate spell is not the first choice as they would be able to do it for free after few years...

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, Manu said:

How can they learn spirit dance, spirit travel if not discorporate?

And as a Shaman, the discorporate spell is not the first choice as they would be able to do it for free after few years...

I think the Discorporate spell is an early choice, so they can learn Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel. You can learn the basics as theory just by being told, though.

[Manu]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the Discorporate spell is an early choice, so they can learn Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel. You can learn the basics as theory just by being told, though.

Still not convinced... Spending one rune point for a spell you use only when student??? What the heck? One shaman, you will never use this spell anymore (as it is self). My RQ will certainly vary on this one....

[Byll]

I'm assuming that the Shaman that the assistant supports will somehow suck the assistant's spirit into the spirit world when the Shaman decides to it is time to teach the locations and practices of spirit travel, and that the assistant's body is guarded by spirits loyal to the shaman while the assistant is on the spirit plane. 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Manu said:

When I read the rule about discorporation, it is always the shaman. But can an assistant discorporate? I think so as he has all the necessary skills (spirit travel,...)

They need Discorporate until they get their own fetch. Just like real world shamanism, Gloranthan shamanism is learnt on the job after initiation. You can learn a bit of theory, but really you just need to become a shaman and do it.. The only thing you can do is practice your spirit combat to aid in defeating Bad Man. Then you are off. Shamanism differs from the other  magical practices, you don't gradually get better in your core skills until reach rune level (shaman).

The list of shamanic abilities by no means complete. Some shaman know how to take others with them, others can cast discorporate on others, many can even extend their time, allowing them to pass deeper into the spirit world, with out that they can never go deep.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Manu said:

Still not convinced... Spending one rune point for a spell you use only when student??? What the heck? 

You don't spend Rune Points to learn spells, and you don't lose any Rune Points when a spell becomes redundant. By the time you get to be a shaman you've probably got more Rune Points than there are spells anyway.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the Discorporate spell is an early choice, so they can learn Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel. You can learn the basics as theory just by being told, though.

While it was what I was thinking, that does mean that either the assistant is burning lots of POW to get lots of RPs, or the training is only happening every season... Because it would mean that the shaman could only teach those two skills when the RPs were available to the assistant. (it's a Self only spell)

However, in Vasana's Tale, she talks about when Argrath taught them to Discorporate, which would imply that it's possible without the spell (unless they sacrificed for it), or it's a separate ability that can be learned.

 

One question I do have on this topic - can you learn Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel without being discorporate? And, if using the spell, why don't you need those skills to travel?

[Crel]

This is entirely in My Glorantha, but to make my life simpler I've ruled that the Rune spell Discorporation and the shaman ability to discorporate are two different abilities sharing the same name. I've treated Discorporation as basically similar to astral projection or wandering ethereally in D&D; you can enter the Spirit World at a vortex (I used a naiad's pond before) but are generally restricted to exploring your immediate surroundings in the Middle World for the spell's duration. If you want to move quicker than mundane walking a Spirit Travel roll's required. You can also get this effect by smoking hazia. The ethereal adventurer is somewhat aware of "other side" shenanigans going on around, but their perception is primarily focused on the Middle World.

In contrast, I plan to treat the shaman ability as focused on the Spirit World. It lets you go there right away, starting at the adventurer's home place. (My players haven't awoken a fetch yet.) The adventurer gets to wander the Spirit World, making their one Spirit Travel check and getting their one spirit encounter per the rules before returning to their body. The shaman may forcibly leave the Spirit World and explore the Middle World, but is less aware of what's going on physically. They require the Visibility spell to initiate spirit combat or to speak even with a magical language like Spiritspeech.

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

can you learn Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel without being discorporate?

I assume you can, because not all cults with shamans appear to have Discorporation. For example, the Yelm of the Golden Bow subcult and IIRC Kyger Litor. Though I doubt you could gain experience in those skills without actually using them while discorporate.

Of course, you can always head over to Prax and light up some hazia or moon flowers...

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

While it was what I was thinking, that does mean that either the assistant is burning lots of POW to get lots of RPs, or the training is only happening every season... Because it would mean that the shaman could only teach those two skills when the RPs were available to the assistant. (it's a Self only spell)

Again, maybe a lot if it can be gained theoretically, by listening to the songs and watching the shaman with Second Sight, backed up with practical experience oncer or twice per season. I expect there are other ways to do it, getting stoned or travelling to special places, but it wouldn't surprise me if some shamans insist that Discorporate is first of the spells learned so that the assistant can use it as necessary in the service of the shaman. I woulnd't impose that on a player, but I'm sure that they will find the spell useful during the time that it takes to become a shaman, which may be the majority of the character's played time. Worrying that the spell will eventually "waste" one of the rune spells learned slots is just bizarre to me. It's a bit like worrying about wasting time learning offhand sword skill, because it will be wasted when your main hand skill gets to 200%.

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, in Vasana's Tale, she talks about when Argrath taught them to Discorporate, which would imply that it's possible without the spell (unless they sacrificed for it), or it's a separate ability that can be learned.

From what I understand, that's one of Argrath's special magical tricks, but one that he can teach.

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

One question I do have on this topic - can you learn Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel without being discorporate? And, if using the spell, why don't you need those skills to travel?

I can't provide an official answer, but since Assistant Shaman doesn't say that you must take the spell, I assume that one or both of the following is true:

1. It is not a requirement.
2. There are other means of becoming discorporate - I see now that this is definitely true, since it can happen by fumbling in Spirit Combat (p370).

Also, Spirit Travel has a base of 10%, so everyone has some basic instinctive knowledge of it. I'm not sure what that says about learning it, but game mechanically there's no prohibition on learning any skill.

[jajagappa]

On 5/6/2019 at 12:45 PM, Manu said:

But can an assistant discorporate? I think so as he has all the necessary skills (spirit travel,...)

Yes, they can discorporate and learn how to perform Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel.

No, they don't require the Discorporate rune magic to do so, but that's likely the most efficient and predictable way to do it.

There are other means.  See the Hazia and Moon Flower articles in RQG Bestiary p.199: "Hazia is a euphoric substance derived from the crushed stamens of a plant native to the Stinking Forest. It is highly addictive and produces the same effect as a Discorporation spell but lasting for 1D6 hours." and "Lunar alchemists refine Moon Flower into a potion that eliminates the physical harm and enhances aspects of the delirium and creates an effect like that of hazia (but without the addictive qualities)."

Those are but two. The dark elves are undoubtedly tending special fungi and brewing fungi-based potions that have similar effects.

In my Orlmarth campaign, the shaman Joseph Greenbeak brought a group of heroes with him into the Spirit World by having them find and ingest White Dust mushrooms, "picked before the dust is gone to open the way to the Spirit Plane". The downside of White Dust mushroom is that while you Discorporate, the effect doesn't allow you to find your way back to your body.  For that Joseph had them find the thorns of the Green Spot Tanglebush "to follow the Trail of Pain back to the body" (aka, make a quick exit from the Spirit Plane when you're in trouble).

 

[jajagappa]

15 hours ago, Crel said:

Of course, you can always head over to Prax and light up some hazia or moon flowers...

Don't have to go to Prax for those! Hazia comes from the Stinking Forest, so has to be a good trade going north to the Lunar Empire and south to Sartar and Esrolia. 

The text doesn't say where Moon Flowers are from, so whatever is convenient for your game.

[Shiningbrow]

I have a question - can a Discorporate person go to the higher spirits and get Shamanic Abilities?

And, could a Discorporate person have their Fetch awakened? (what about on a HQ?)

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I have a question - can a Discorporate person go to the higher spirits and get Shamanic Abilities?

And, could a Discorporate person have their Fetch awakened? (what about on a HQ?)

It would not surprise me if there were other ways of awakening the Fetch other than the formulaic Bad Man fight. I think Shamanic Abilities probably require a Fetch, although again there are probably Heroquest powers that strongly resemble them. I doubt that any of this would be any easier or safer than the Bad Man method, otherwise more people would use it.

Maybe Argrath knows.

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It would not surprise me if there were other ways of awakening the Fetch other than the formulaic Bad Man fight. I think Shamanic Abilities probably require a Fetch, although again there are probably Heroquest powers that strongly resemble them. I doubt that any of this would be any easier or safer than the Bad Man method, otherwise more people would use it.

Maybe Argrath knows.

You've just made me think of something... is a Fetch always a Fetch?

By that I mean, could someone have something 'awakened' that is mechanically exactly the same as a Fetch, but would not be considered a 'shamanic' fetch as far as the cult/god/tribe is concerned???

Thus, allowing not only membership into the cult (or higher membership), but also without the restrictions (100% responsibility to the tribe)

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

...allowing not only membership into the cult (or higher membership), but also without the restrictions (100% responsibility to the tribe)

Those restrictions are largely cultural anyway. Vishi Dunn doesn't seem to worry about it in the examples, he just awakens his fetch and gets on with adventuring.

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 I have a question - can a Discorporate person go to the higher spirits and get Shamanic Abilities?

Probably. But the dangers are: 1) that their body is highly vulnerable without a fetch; 2) their connection to the Spirit World is likely more tenuous, and they may just be treated as some petty spirit to overwhelm by these higher spirits (including the Bad Man, who may well be attracted by these venturesome "spirits").

 

[gochie]

Always thought that with Discorporation you still stayed in this world... You're not gaining access to the spirit plane.

One way to explain the training might be the Shaman using his own spirits to practice with the student in this world. Practice Spirit Combat in a controlled environment, and without needing to go into the spirit world.

As for Spirit Dance, I'm not so sure. Maybe Discorporate would need to be used and once again, the assistant practices in our world with the Shaman's spirits (or the Shaman himself).

 

Unless of course I completely misunderstand the whole Spirit World thing and I've been wrong for years.

[Psullie]

I feel that giving Assistant Shamans free access to the Spirit World completely diminishes the Shaman. They are Rune Lord status and their abilities are the for a rarified few. Some individuals may be Assistant Shamans their whole life whose access to the Spirit World is by sacrifice/invitation (aka spending Rune Points).

In my games the Spirit World is an alien realm not defined by geometry or time. Within exist fantastic powers whose ambivalence towards mortals is the main reason why our brief trespass is tolerated. Discorporate individuals send their essence/soul/conscience into the Spirit World, departing temporarily from their corporeal bodies. Without a guardian or fetch your are vulnerable to attack.

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I feel that giving Assistant Shamans free access to the Spirit World completely diminishes the Shaman.

Providing paths to Discorporate, so that you can travel with the shaman and learn is not the same as "free access".  The shaman will have many cautionary tales about stupid pupils who thought they were ready too soon, and are now gone from this world.

19 minutes ago, Psullie said:

In my games the Spirit World is an alien realm not defined by geometry or time. Within exist fantastic powers whose ambivalence towards mortals is the main reason why our brief trespass is tolerated. Discorporate individuals send their essence/soul/conscience into the Spirit World, departing temporarily from their corporeal bodies. Without a guardian or fetch your are vulnerable to attack.

Yes, mine games use similar interpretation, though parts of the Spirit World "appear" to overlay parts of the mundane world (e.g. if you enter in Orlmarth lands, you can see Kero Fin, for she exists in the Spirit World as well, but there are no "cities", "steads" etc).

And those without a shaman for a guide, or a fetch, are very, very vulnerable.

[Glorion]

On 5/10/2019 at 2:36 PM, jajagappa said:

Providing paths to Discorporate, so that you can travel with the shaman and learn is not the same as "free access".  The shaman will have many cautionary tales about stupid pupils who thought they were ready too soon, and are now gone from this world.

 

Yes, that's how the shaman teaches Spirit Travel and so forth. I think the Assistant Shaman bond is strong enough so that, even without hazia, a shaman can discorporate an assistant for teaching purposes and bring him onto the spirit plane. But for him/her to do that except under supervision of the master does require hazia or some such, and definitely is not advised.

But that is not how the assistant shaman can Discorporate for the test, the assistant shaman has to do that on his/her own. How? If the shaman is worthy, which the master can tell (can be abstracted by that POW+CHA roll) then after 1D6+1 days of fasting, prayer and meditation, the assistant will have learned how to Discorporate, and is on the first step of the path to becoming a full shaman.

[David Scott]

News from the God's books is that if the cult has shaman, assistant shaman get access to the Discorporation rune spell.

[JustAnotherVingan]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 7:44 PM, Manu said:

Still not convinced... Spending one rune point for a spell you use only when student??? What the heck? One shaman, you will never use this spell anymore (as it is self). My RQ will certainly vary on this one....

Some shamens might cast Discorporate on their assistant, others require them to learn it for themselves. Assistants probably don't go into the spirit world on their own as a matter of course. They are trainees.

Its still a useful spell for a shamen as it allows them to take companions into the spirit world

[MJ Sadique]

On 7/14/2020 at 7:20 PM, Glorion said:

Yes, that's how the shaman teaches Spirit Travel and so forth. I think the Assistant Shaman bond is strong enough so that, even without hazia, a shaman can discorporate an assistant for teaching purposes and bring him onto the spirit plane. But for him/her to do that except under supervision of the master does require hazia or some such, and definitely is not advised.

  Nope, the way to access spirit world is to face the Horned Man : the First Shaman is the One who Will Judge you ! You cannot teach or learn how to "walk". One must acquire/found his fetch through the ritual of awaking to be able to discorporate and travel to the spirit world. The Shaman teach you the rites, how to fight spirits, flew from them (dance) and the "Geography" of the spirit world. But a Shaman cannot discorporate someone else and the runespell is SELF use ONLY !!!

10 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Some shamens might cast Discorporate on their assistant, others require them to learn it for themselves. Assistants probably don't go into the spirit world on their own as a matter of course. They are trainees.

Its still a useful spell for a shamen as it allows them to take companions into the spirit world

In terms of play, it should be fun but the (tons of) rules don't allow this.

Discorporate is only describe for middle world travel (15' or 5km / RP) and Spirit world travel take an awful lot of times : 1D6 hours to go hunting a spirit. With 4RP for 1h mean it mean 4 to 24RP for a trip to the spirit world. I think the spell is NOT made for spirit travel but Mundane plane travel, 15 is enough to track and for fight some bad spirits like a disease, wraith or why not call for the help of a Guardian/Landscape spirit...

Discorporate is usefull for other things like scouting : Nick Brooke "shamanic reconnaissance " is a very good way to use it.