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Tywyll

Do spells have a visual component (when they don't obviously have one)?

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Do spells, especially Rune Spells, have a visual component when cast? RQ:Adventure in Glorantha had a very specific set of rules around what happened when spells of various intensities were performed and if/how you could (or couldn't) hide them. Divine spells literally had you momentarily taking on aspects of your god. Is that a thing any more?

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3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Do spells, especially Rune Spells, have a visual component when cast? RQ:Adventure in Glorantha had a very specific set of rules around what happened when spells of various intensities were performed and if/how you could (or couldn't) hide them. Divine spells literally had you momentarily taking on aspects of your god. Is that a thing any more?

I think so. It's always been the case that sorcery is "spooky and alien" to Heortlings and Praxians because it doesn't have visible and audible side-effects.

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8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think so. It's always been the case that sorcery is "spooky and alien" to Heortlings and Praxians because it doesn't have visible and audible side-effects.

Are there any rules for this anywhere? Does that mean sorcery is invisible (except its effects)?

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1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Are there any rules for this anywhere? Does that mean sorcery is invisible (except its effects)?

The only published reference that I can think of that is clear in this regard, in that it specifically says that sorcery is creepy because of its lack of side-effects, is Strangers in Prax. Other than that I'm relying on conversations with the Great Old Ones themselves, memories of old digest posts, etc.

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29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The only published reference that I can think of that is clear in this regard, in that it specifically says that sorcery is creepy because of its lack of side-effects, is Strangers in Prax. Other than that I'm relying on conversations with the Great Old Ones themselves, memories of old digest posts, etc.

Of course, we Modern Major-Generals all understand that none of that stuff should be taken as guidance anymore; if it isn't in the GtG, or the GS, or the RQG RAW... then no, it isn't something we should presume is correct.

Greg himself -- everything pre-MoonDesign -- has been Gregged.

 

Somwhere, there's a Grand Shaman ROFLMAO'ing.

 

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As per always - My Glorantha probably varies...

My 2 clacks - unless it's obvious (like Fireblade), then no.

Otherwise, everyone would see a Protection or Shield spell in place, and thus know they need to boost any offensives, or Dispel them.  "Oh look, your sword is glowing... I'll have to do something about that!" Can you imagine dating someone who's always glowing? 😛

If there was an afterglow of residual magic, logically it would also suggest that the stronger the magic, the greater the glow. Thus making it a lot easier to determine how much dispel power you'd need... So, not only would that mean your spell casting is very obvious, but would also affect your ability to hide and sneak (especially in the dark)... and if that were the case, I would have thought that Chaosium or some other rules person would have thought about that a long time ago and brought it up in the rules...

Also - Pierce Veil specifically notes that it can see spells with duration - the other two similar spells don't. The Shamanic ability Enhanced Second Sight allows one to know the exact spells cast on someone... these are the only two spells that mention such an ability. The first certainly seems to imply spells don't glow.

(although, that might not be the question being asked... Is there a flash of light or crackle or pop or something? What about when someone casts a Befuddle? Or Demoralise? Or Charisma or Clever Tongue? As soon as you see someone casting magic, you should be instantly suspicious. We do need to speak the spell... but then, what about spirits or those bound into animals?("woof woof arf"... Bling!)? (one of the Shaman's taboos is to only cast spells using Spiritspeech)

Opposing my opinion is p248 "Spell Effects"... "The sensory effects of a spell (what it looks, sounds, smells, and even feels like) depend on the type of magic used and the power of the spell." However, I haven't noticed any other reference to this, so it's possibly just a once mentioned and never to be discussed again type of thing.

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Otherwise, everyone would see a Protection or Shield spell in place, and thus know they need to boost any offensives, or Dispel them.  "Oh look, your sword is glowing... I'll have to do something about that!" Can you imagine dating someone who's always glowing?

The casting of a spell has effects, not all spells have effects permanently. Glamour and Charisma probably don't, illusions don't have obvious "THIS IS AN ILLUSION" wavy lines or sparkles, but I think Bladesharp does have effects when the sword is swinging, like cinematic WHOOM noises. Bladesharp 10 in my game would sound exactly like a lightsaber.

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"Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the Mundane World; it is not an invisible act! The caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the magical powers at their disposal. The caster might appear to grow larger (even if their SIZ is unaffected), burn with an inner glow, crackle lightning from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity." pg 315

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3 hours ago, CBDunkerson said:

"Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the Mundane World; it is not an invisible act! The caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the magical powers at their disposal. The caster might appear to grow larger (even if their SIZ is unaffected), burn with an inner glow, crackle lightning from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity." pg 315

Adding to this, under Spell Effects (p.248) in the Magic chapter: "The sensory effects of a spell (what it looks, sounds, smells, and even feels like) depend on the type of magic used and the power of the spell."

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11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The only published reference that I can think of that is clear in this regard, in that it specifically says that sorcery is creepy because of its lack of side-effects, is Strangers in Prax.

In the Arlaten description?

The visual effects might be different, but I think that the Arlaten description owed a lot more to the RQ3 rules than to Glorantha. It was the perhaps somewhat desperate attempt to make those two components fit, with predictably weird consequences.

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7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The casting of a spell has effects, not all spells have effects permanently. Glamour and Charisma probably don't, illusions don't have obvious "THIS IS AN ILLUSION" wavy lines or sparkles, but I think Bladesharp does have effects when the sword is swinging, like cinematic WHOOM noises. Bladesharp 10 in my game would sound exactly like a lightsaber.

Does your Bladesharpened sword also glow like a lightsaber?

If PCs are in a darkened area (or just fighting at night), wouldn't that mean that they become much easier targets with more spells activated (presuming visual effects). If there's a hum or whoom, then you've just made yourself a better target for trolls using Darksense. (and also the target of Dispel)

 

Again, I'm not saying there isn't/shouldn't be... I'm just throwing out the consequences of adopting it.

 

If the "casting of a spell has effects" is true, then what do we think is going to happen when the Ernalda Priestess desperately needs to convince the council not to go to war, and casts her Charisma spell in the middle of the meeting? Or the Eurmal casts Clever Tongue and everyone starts agreeing with him? (yes, I get that they're hopefully smart enough to cast those outside, then come back in...

Which would then lead to - if the Eurmali starts making sense, shouldn't everyone get a roll to think "hang on, that's not right.... dispel magic!"

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23 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the "casting of a spell has effects" is true, then what do we think is going to happen when the Ernalda Priestess desperately needs to convince the council not to go to war, and casts her Charisma spell in the middle of the meeting? Or the Eurmal casts Clever Tongue and everyone starts agreeing with him? (yes, I get that they're hopefully smart enough to cast those outside, then come back in...

 

My thoughts as well...

Make the effects minor and subtle, even with a Bladesharp 4 once thought to be powerful. perhaps the whistle of a enhanced sword is a little more evocative of the wind. When the sun hits it just right again after a brilliant move perhaps, it glints a woad blue (remember this might work with steel but this is red bronze hmm). The air moves enough to be noticeable on a special perhaps as the blade whistles into flesh, Hints and cues subtly dropped in descriptions. But care is required that you have not added another magic effect and unthought of consequences as well. 

What to do with a bladesharp 10? (The boy within says: zzzzoommm, vrrroooosh, zzzzzzooottt!) 

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the "casting of a spell has effects" is true, then what do we think is going to happen when the Ernalda Priestess desperately needs to convince the council not to go to war, and casts her Charisma spell in the middle of the meeting? Or the Eurmal casts Clever Tongue and everyone starts agreeing with him? (yes, I get that they're hopefully smart enough to cast those outside, then come back in...

Which would then lead to - if the Eurmali starts making sense, shouldn't everyone get a roll to think "hang on, that's not right.... dispel magic!"

I allow a Dex check or a Chr check to sneak cast spells, with the multiplier based on how obvious the spell should be. The whole point of some spells is that they’re tricky. Illusion magic should be easy to hide. Some spells should be impossible to hide. Sneak cast a SEVER SPIRIT? Humakt says “Hell no!”

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the "casting of a spell has effects" is true, then what do we think is going to happen when the Ernalda Priestess desperately needs to convince the council not to go to war, and casts her Charisma spell in the middle of the meeting? Or the Eurmal casts Clever Tongue and everyone starts agreeing with him? (yes, I get that they're hopefully smart enough to cast those outside, then come back in...

Which would then lead to - if the Eurmali starts making sense, shouldn't everyone get a roll to think "hang on, that's not right.... dispel magic!"

Easy enough - they take upon the aspect of their god. The priestess seems greater, more important, like the very Earth Mother is present in the room and centered upon her priestess. The Goddess speaks - who dares defy Her?

Eurmal is present. and despite any rational misgivings you ought to have, you are convinced by his incarnation. That is the way of Eurmal. 

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4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Does your Bladesharpened sword also glow like a lightsaber?

Not quite.

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If PCs are in a darkened area (or just fighting at night), wouldn't that mean that they become much easier targets with more spells activated (presuming visual effects). If there's a hum or whoom, then you've just made yourself a better target for trolls using Darksense. (and also the target of Dispel)

If you're fighting in the dark against trolls, I think a little buzz from your sword is the least of your worries...

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the "casting of a spell has effects" is true, then what do we think is going to happen when the Ernalda Priestess desperately needs to convince the council not to go to war, and casts her Charisma spell in the middle of the meeting?

What would happen is that it becomes obvious to everyone that she is infused with the power of the Gods, that Ernalda literally speaks through her, everyone is very impressed by it, and in game mechanical terms her CHA is doubled. Why do you think anything else would happen?

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or the Eurmal casts Clever Tongue and everyone starts agreeing with him? (yes, I get that they're hopefully smart enough to cast those outside, then come back in...

Which would then lead to - if the Eurmali starts making sense, shouldn't everyone get a roll to think "hang on, that's not right.... dispel magic!"

More likely, yes, because EVERYTHING that an Eurmali does is cheating, buy definition. Then again, he's allowed to. I think my answer is "Yes they can do this, but no they generally don't". It can be very dangerous to foil a trickster. Sometimes they are doing awful things for very necessary reasons.

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16 hours ago, g33k said:

Greg himself... has been Gregged.

Feel like I need that on a shirt or something...

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Easy enough - they take upon the aspect of their god. The priestess seems greater, more important, like the very Earth Mother is present in the room and centered upon her priestess. The Goddess speaks - who dares defy Her?

The answer to your question is - anyone who knows that such magic exists in the world, and using said magic to 'prove' a point doesn't actually make the argument stronger (which should actually be... everyone!)

(now, Divination, OTOH, would be a different matter... I'm also using a bit of an extreme example. I'd like to think that most Ernaldan initiates aren't using said invocations so much. But then, what else would you use them for?)

 

24 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you're fighting in the dark against trolls, I think a little buzz from your sword is the least of your worries...

 

To an extent... It would mean you're now an open target to all the trollkin standing behind using missile fire... (but, I did also assume the light as well as the buzz... Buzz Lightblade 😛 )

 

24 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What would happen is that it becomes obvious to everyone that she is infused with the power of the Gods, that Ernalda literally speaks through her, everyone is very impressed by it, and in game mechanical terms her CHA is doubled. Why do you think anything else would happen?

I think... that in a world where magic is so prevalent, and the gods are so often talking with you, that in that situation if you're hell bent on one course of action, and you're getting Ernalda "literally speaking through  her", then you'd be thinking,

 

"yeah, I know that trick... doesn't mean you're right though!"

 

25 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

More likely, yes, because EVERYTHING that an Eurmali does is cheating, buy definition. Then again, he's allowed to. I think my answer is "Yes they can do this, but no they generally don't". It can be very dangerous to foil a trickster. Sometimes they are doing awful things for very necessary reasons.

That does presume that said Eurmali isn't psychotically insane... "Yes they can do this... and given any possible opportunity, yes they will!"

Agreed, it can be dangerous to foil a trickster... can also be dangerous to go along with him/her (just ask Orlanth).

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8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

"yeah, I know that trick... doesn't mean you're right though!"

What trick? There's no "trick" going on. The magic is real, the connection to Ernalda is real. Western sorcerors might scoff, Lunars might ignore it, but Orlanthi would not. Their connection to the gods would be weakened by denying the gods' ability to manifest. And that Ernalda priestess is definitely less likely to choose you for the next Bless Champion spell.

8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

That does presume that said Eurmali isn't psychotically insane... "Yes they can do this... and given any possible opportunity, yes they will!"

Of course he's psychotically insane. That's a given. But if you foil your trickser at every turn, you let chaos in.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What trick? There's no "trick" going on. The magic is real, the connection to Ernalda is real. Western sorcerors might scoff, Lunars might ignore it, but Orlanthi would not. Their connection to the gods would be weakened by denying the gods' ability to manifest. And that Ernalda priestess is definitely less likely to choose you for the next Bless Champion spell.

I didn't mean 'trick' in that meaning/context. I meant in that people would be aware that there is magic which allows for that power (in game terms, Ernaldans have access to a Rune Spell called Charisma, and it's used to get people to agree with the caster). They would also be quite aware that, although casting Rune spells does "bring down the deity", it doesn't mean that it's actually the deity's will or opinion that is being expressed.

It's not too far off from "If you don't do what I say, I'll get my big brother to beat you up". Doesn't make your argument any more logical (or even rational)... it's just got a power behind it.

And, yes, I'm quite sure that Ernaldan priestess will hold that grudge 😛

(I've just been reading about the council deciding whether to go to attack the Lunar Occupation of Hill of Orlanth's Victorious ... and imagining a possible scenario play out).

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Of course he's psychotically insane. That's a given. But if you foil your trickser at every turn, you let chaos in.

I'm going to say... I'm sure there will be many who will disagree with that! And, we already have evidence that following Trickster actually does let Chaos in! The Trick (haha) is figuring out which will and which won't....

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Just now, Shiningbrow said:

I didn't mean 'trick' in that meaning/context. I meant in that people would be aware that there is magic which allows for that power (in game terms, Ernaldans have access to a Rune Spell called Charisma, and it's used to get people to agree with the caster). They would also be quite aware that, although casting Rune spells does "bring down the deity", it doesn't mean that it's actually the deity's will or opinion that is being expressed.

That's not necessarily the case. The deity works through their worshipers who wield the power of the deity. When a priestess wielding the power of Ernalda acts, Ernalda acts. And yet at the same time, the gods act against themselves. Orlanth fights on both sides of the battlefield. Just because the priestess speaks for Ernalda, that doesn't mean she is her ONLY voice.

But the point is that a priestess who incarnates the Charisma of Ernalda is going to be taken very seriously by her audience. This is no Trick - Gloranthans accept that the gods intervene in the world in this way. 

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53 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm going to say... I'm sure there will be many who will disagree with that! And, we already have evidence that following Trickster actually does let Chaos in! The Trick (haha) is figuring out which will and which won't....

You can always use the Trickster as a scapegoat afterwards - banish him from the clan, and hope he takes the chaos curse with him.

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56 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

They would also be quite aware that, although casting Rune spells does "bring down the deity", it doesn't mean that it's actually the deity's will or opinion that is being expressed.

I think it actually does mean that. Certainly the majority of Gloranthans believe it.

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8 hours ago, Joerg said:

In the Arlaten description?

The visual effects might be different, but I think that the Arlaten description owed a lot more to the RQ3 rules than to Glorantha.

Sure, it used the RQ3 game mechanics, but I don't think those mechanics say anything about how spellcasting manifests in Glorantha.

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12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, it used the RQ3 game mechanics, but I don't think those mechanics say anything about how spellcasting manifests in Glorantha.

I think it reasoned that because Sorcery was the magic of the Invisible God, it was also invisible in effect.  But given that RQG sorcery uses the Runes, I don't think this reasoning persuasive.

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