Do spells have a visual component (when they don't obviously have one)?

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I think it reasoned that because Sorcery was the magic of the Invisible God, it was also invisible in effect.  But given that RQG sorcery uses the Runes, I don't think this reasoning persuasive.

I agree.

[Sumath]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think... that in a world where magic is so prevalent, and the gods are so often talking with you, that in that situation if you're hell bent on one course of action, and you're getting Ernalda "literally speaking through  her", then you'd be thinking,

 

"yeah, I know that trick... doesn't mean you're right though!"

But the effect of the magic is that you would think they're right. Just as it's easy to say you won't be swayed by a charismatic person in real life, but might find yourself being so when they are in front of you, charming your socks off with suddenly compelling arguments.

Of course, there's always CHA vs POW contests if you wanted to allow someone to resist such blandishments. 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I think it reasoned that because Sorcery was the magic of the Invisible God, it was also invisible in effect.  But given that RQG sorcery uses the Runes, I don't think this reasoning persuasive.

It doesn't "use them" in the same way that Rune magic does. I don't know what the current thinking on the manifestation of sorcery in Glorantha is, but I'm sure it doesn't depend on the game system being used. It may not be consistent, for example Malkioni sorcery might indeed be subtle and spooky whereas Lhankor Mhy, Aeolian, or Lunar sorcery might have more sizzle to it.

And I don't find that readoning persuasive either, but then again I've never heard it before. Has someone said that that was the reasoning?

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I agree.

Implying that "spooky sorcery" with few if any side-effects is not current thinking? Or, that the reasoning is not persuasive?

Edited May 9, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the "casting of a spell has effects" is true, then what do we think is going to happen when the Ernalda Priestess desperately needs to convince the council not to go to war, and casts her Charisma spell in the middle of the meeting?

The spells will have different manifestations.  Charisma should not create some great green glow around the Ernalda Priestess.  But all around may see her as more vibrant, more alive, her voice stronger and more compelling, yet calming at the same time - think more of turning up the dimmer switch on a light and how at the end all around see her strength and presence as the power that is Ernalda. (It is what priestesses are after all).

 

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it actually does mean that. Certainly the majority of Gloranthans believe it.

So - what happens when 2 Ernaldan priestesses (or even just an Initate and a Priestess) both bring down their goddess through (for example) a Charisma spell, and they're arguing against each other?

My point from above isn't that they don't believe the god/dessess exist - it's that they're so prominent in daily life, and so is their magics amongst the religious hierarchy, that using such invocations becomes 'normal', and therefore the motives of the caster more suspect. (especially obvious when an Eurmali is Lie-ing to you... or suddenly sounds really logical (at the time). "Dudes, we should totally go raid Glamour right now - the place has been abandoned!".. "oh, really, who told you that?" - "The Eurmali... come on, let's go!!" )

At the very least, I'd expect extra Resistance rolls to be made. Especially when your 'dude' friend points out the obvious....

 

I do think that at the time, the listeners would be impressed. 15 minutes later, though...

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

This is no Trick - Gloranthans accept that the gods intervene in the world in this way. 

They do. They also know that those gods intervene in the world when the initiate calls on them to do so. And in the example being used, it's when the priestess wants to win an argument (in the case I'm thinking of, when the council is deciding to defend The Hill of Orlanth Victorious from a Lunar attack). They're fully aware that the goddess probably doesn't have a stake in this, but do know that the priestess does.

I would accept that at the time the debate is on, and the spell is in force, the listeners will be fully "taken in" by the majesty and awe of the Goddess made manifest. Later though...

(how would a Malkioni react to the manifestation of a deity???)

 

In a world full of magic, everything is suspected of being magical.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The spells will have different manifestations.  Charisma should not create some great green glow around the Ernalda Priestess.  But all around may see her as more vibrant, more alive, her voice stronger and more compelling, yet calming at the same time - think more of turning up the dimmer switch on a light and how at the end all around see her strength and presence as the power that is Ernalda. (It is what priestesses are after all).

 

Yes, I had presumed that... the green glow would be rather obvious.

But, I'm also suggesting the sudden vibrancy, strength, compulsion etc would also be a bit obvious to those who are used to it.

When the Orlanthi Priest calls upon Orlanth, he knows that he's invoking Orlanth's blessing for his own personal reasons. And thus, he also knows the same about others. So, knowing this, being stronger, more vibrant and compelling wouldn't make them more right...

 

15 hours ago, Sumath said:

But the effect of the magic is that you would think they're right. Just as it's easy to say you won't be swayed by a charismatic person in real life, but might find yourself being so when they are in front of you, charming your socks off with suddenly compelling arguments.

Of course, there's always CHA vs POW contests if you wanted to allow someone to resist such blandishments. 

I'll take that CHA vs POW roll thanks!

[metcalph]

23 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

(how would a Malkioni react to the manifestation of a deity???)

All Malkioni know that Gods exist hence their manifestation does not cause them to lose faith,.  Where they differ is on the question of whether the Gods should be worshipped.

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

All Malkioni know that Gods exist hence their manifestation does not cause them to lose faith,.  Where they differ is on the question of whether the Gods should be worshipped.

Or listened to? Agreed with? Blindly followed?

 

(Q: why does Monkey King have a cat for an avatar?)

[metcalph]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or listened to? Agreed with? Blindly followed?

I said and meant worshipped.  They are free to follow a gods advice in other matters - if a God went to the Brithini and told them something bad is going to happen, they would not dismiss him out off hand.

 

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

(Q: why does Monkey King have a cat for an avatar?)

I have no idea what this is about.

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I have no idea what this is about.

"Great Sage Equal to Heaven"... the title given to the Monkey King because his ego and impatience etc was destroying the place.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

My point from above isn't that they don't believe the god/dessess exist - it's that they're so prominent in daily life, and so is their magics amongst the religious hierarchy, that using such invocations becomes 'normal', and therefore the motives of the caster more suspect. (especially obvious when an Eurmali is Lie-ing to you... or suddenly sounds really logical (at the time). "Dudes, we should totally go raid Glamour right now - the place has been abandoned!".. "oh, really, who told you that?" - "The Eurmali... come on, let's go!!" )

 

Ah Shiningbrow, I see why you are having problems with this.

We are visitors from our blue planet to Stafford's green lozenge  Wethe players and GMs  do not believe in magic we can not exploit or gods that  can not do something for us. Codification and god learning, ya know.The folk of the lozenge see it all very different.They have to. No choice, it means life and success against adversity mythically, historically, presently and as sure as gods make little green hills tomorrow to! They know if they do not appease the river or creek near their stead the spirits will  turn their boats back or tear their nets. Belief has absolutely nothing to do with it. They do not read this as fair of unfair but just as is. We might call them naive, but they know better!

Alas, a little role-playing is required here taking on a very strange role, willing to  consume something as daily bread and truth in the sword and sandal sandbox of Glorantha  even if very different from one's day to day life. Assume that the folk of the lozenge do not feel they are being fooled but that a truth of the god's age is being revealed as it is a little way each season holy day and in mind-blowing village scale hero quests of the Sacred Times and High Holy days where you and your neighbours can walk amid your tales and heroes as well as gods and demons.

  It is a part of Glorantha that should not vary very much I think.. Now Mythros and RQ 3 do not see it that way and might suit better, but RQ G and HQ G the inherent shamanistic Staffordian silliness is a part of the cloth (again, I think)...

Ah hell, each to their own, vary away, remove if you wish but I have no problems asking my players to suspend disbelief and except the word of a priestess under the influence of Runes and Magic evoking their deity to the faithful, possibly to the point of accepting shit we would call blarney.. 

Cheers

[Shiningbrow]

14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

<snip>

Sorry, but unfortunately not. I'm actually a lazy, and not-often-practicing pagan, with some real world shamanic experience. And, that experience tells me that those spirits and deities aren't all-knowing! And they have different agendas... and so do their earthly representatives.

Consider this example then...

Two Ernaldans are in an argument (perhaps who's the best champion to Bless, perhaps whether to go to war, whoe's the next High Priestess... or maybe just what to have for lunch). One, decides to get her own way and casts Charisma (she really wants tacos! - which may or may not be the name of the champion or priestess 😛 )

Will the other priestess(es) say "OMG(dess) - you're right, Our Great Mother has spoken - Tacos it is!" Or, will they go "Oi! Don't you try that on us, we know what you're doing!!!" And, go and cast their own Charisma (cos Sandwiches is better... again, champion or otherwise)

 

(I'm bamboozled that the Trickster Lie spell doesn't have a resistance roll!)

Edited May 10, 2019 by Shiningbrow
spell uses

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So - what happens when 2 Ernaldan priestesses (or even just an Initate and a Priestess) both bring down their goddess through (for example) a Charisma spell, and they're arguing against each other?

 

I would say this is troubling to the faithful, and many could see this as bad omens (superstition, Glorantha style, and having as much to with Gloranthan truth, imo).

Too be honest a priest or priestesses disagreeing in public is not the worst that can happen Hell, probably happens more that many wish it would, bad for stability and commerce. It has nothing to do with the gods or goddesses, who are either removed from such pettiness or even to having a whole different levels of pettiness of their very own. How about a priest actually working from within his cult to bring it down in reality. Or change it for the better Lex Luthor style with them as head (cue insane laughter,  bwahaha—they will all follow me now!). Or worse, much, much worse—I have modules that... say no more...

Remember that the gods are not even near omnipotent.

shh!

[Bill the barbarian]

8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Two Ernaldans are in an argument (perhaps who's the best champion to Bless, perhaps whether to go to war, whoe's the next High Priestess... or maybe just what to have for lunch). One, decides to get her own way and casts Charisma (she really wants tacos! - which may or may not be the name of the champion or priestess 😛 )

Will the other priestess(es) say "OMG(dess) - you're right, Our Great Mother has spoken - Tacos it is!" Or, will they go "Oi! Don't you try that on us, we know what you're doing!!!" And, go and cast their own Charisma (cos Sandwiches is better... again, champion or otherwise)

Hmm, again, I do not see problem. I see two ladies arguing and that it has little to do with their religion. I would be very worried should they start to use Ermaldn magic  to solve Ernaldan debates using style and magic, and paying little or even no heed to substance. Magic fine, oratory fine, whatever other court politics intrigue, and skullduggery up to and including murder probably have been done if  they think they can get away with it without causing scandal...religious doctrine underlying the other items should please the wise who hear the arguments. Without substance and with any combination of the others one could be very worried indeed. 

Cheers

[Shiningbrow]

15 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I would say this is troubling to the faithful, and many could see this as bad omens (superstition, Glorantha style, and having as much to with Gloranthan truth, imo).

Too be honest a priest or priestesses disagreeing in public is not the worst that can happen Hell, probably happens more that many wish it would, bad for stability and commerce. It has nothing to do with the gods or goddesses, who are either removed from such pettiness or even to having a whole different levels of pettiness of their very own. How about a priest actually working from within his cult to bring it down in reality. Or change it for the better Lex Luthor style with them as head (cue insane laughter,  bwahaha—they will all follow me now!). Or worse, much, much worse—I have modules that... say no more...

Remember that the gods are not even near omnipotent.

shh!

I didn't have in my head that it was a public debate...

Unless they're throwing DIs (which, to be fair, they probably are!), they may well debate who should be the next High Priestess.

Certainly, Clan Taraling may well be arguing with Clan Enaldoring for whether they should go save the Hill of Orlanth Victorious...

 

Let's talk about blue planet people...

Blue Planet has lots of peoples who believe in lots of pantheons (in the general sense of "deity" - singular or otherwise). Some of those beliefs have separated (like the clans have on Green Lozenge).

Now, the different 'clans' won't disbelieve the powers shown by one of the Godspeakers.... but they won't automatically accept wha they say either... (while I do have in mind US televangelists, it's also appropriate to other religions across the planet). So, many people do choose to believe that the High Priest Roberts is in God's favour, they won't all throw money his way, because they're seeing that he's using their god's name for his own personal motives...

And that's how I'm seeing what can happen in Glorantha - and even more so, because such magic is so common!

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hmm, again, I do not see problem. I see two ladies arguing and that it has little to do with their religion. I would be very worried should they start to use Ermaldn magic  to solve Ernaldan debates using style and magic, and paying little or even no heed to substance. Magic fine, oratory fine, whatever other court politics intrigue, and skullduggery up to and including murder probably have been done if  they think they can get away with it without causing scandal...religious doctrine underlying the other items should please the wise who hear the arguments. Without substance and with any combination of the others one could be very worried indeed. 

Cheers

Agreed! But then - what's the point of the spell then?

Also, when one clan is saying "let's go to war", and another is saying "Nope, too risky".... it's a situation in which I can see the priestesses trying to convince the council one way or the other. After all, the ramifications of this would be huge! (and, like in my previous post, DI would be smart!)

 

(I know I'm being really specific, but I think in general the discussion about how visible magic is still works)

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Agreed! But then - what's the point of the spell then?

 

Same as the  right makeup to intimidate the opponent, a bribe to the right server to bring the wrong dish, a blade with poison, just another tool in the tool box to get things done.

[Shiningbrow]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

Same as the  right makeup to intimidate the opponent, a bribe to the right server to bring the wrong dish, a blade with poison, just another tool in the tool box to get things done.

Your (or your Ernaldan priestesses) is/are evil!

[Bill the barbarian]

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Your (or your Ernaldan priestesses) is/are evil!

One could say Notchet,  Use imagination and you will find another possible pun, buried herein (HINT, imagine a green planet style silent "t" in that capitol city where one might find evil priestesses 

Actually the far worse that I alluded to  were other cults than Ernalda. Though I can imagine the court  and intra/inter temple wars in Esrolia twixt priestesses can get epic.

Rereadin..., yeah, they might be a bit bene geserat, eh?

cheers

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

One could say Notchet,  Use imagination and you will find another possible pun, buried herein (HINT, imagine a green planet style silent "t" in that capitol city where one might find evil priestesses 

Actually the far worse that I alluded to  were other cults than Ernalda. Though I can imagine the court  and intra/inter temple wars in Esrolia twixt priestesses can get epic.

Rereadin..., yeah, they might be a bit bene geserat, eh?

cheers

Well, to be... fair??... there were assassination attempts made. And when the former High Priestess to Samastina (sp?) aligned with the Lunars, after she was brought down there were lots of killings....

Mothers are nasty types when their kids are threatened!

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So - what happens when 2 Ernaldan priestesses (or even just an Initate and a Priestess) both bring down their goddess through (for example) a Charisma spell, and they're arguing against each other?

Each roll their Orate, or whatever skill, with the CHA bonus. What's the problem?

[metcalph]

Simplest solution to the squabbling Ernaldan priestesses problem:  Whoever wins is the superior manifestation of Ernalda and the one in the Right.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Simplest solution to the squabbling Ernaldan priestesses problem:  Whoever wins is the superior manifestation of Ernalda and the one in the Right.

Yep.

[Lordabdul]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

Simplest solution to the squabbling Ernaldan priestesses problem:  Whoever wins is the superior manifestation of Ernalda and the one in the Right.

That would be my view on this too. Who are we to differentiate between "the priestess on the left made a better spell roll" and "Ernalda seems to be a lot more supportive of the priestess on the left". Maybe the dice don't decide -- instead, the Gods move the dice to support their unfathomable schemes!

Also, for trained debaters, merchants, cult leaders and other related scammers (self-improvement organizations, etc.), there's actually already a lot of tricks that can be used to manipulate other parties (Wikipedia has a short list, the most famous one is probably the FITD technique). You might catch someone trying to employ one of those techniques, or try and use a thinly concealed fallacy to bring you to their side or make you comply, and you could could react either by going "don't you try that on me!" or, most probably, "oh, you're not an amateur are you? <cracks knuckles> this is going to be good". But it's not so much of a "trick" if everybody in the tribe council does it already, and has been doing it for generations (people obviously have been using those tricks I mentioned for a long time here on Earth). It's part of the political game... on modern Earth, the game is played by trading favours with other politicians, catering to corporate sponsorship, or whatever... on Glorantha, the game is played by trading favours with other clans, catering to the Gods through long held traditions to get their support in return, etc.

Edited May 10, 2019 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, I'm also suggesting the sudden vibrancy, strength, compulsion etc would also be a bit obvious to those who are used to it.

When the goddess speaks to you, through her chosen vessel, do you ignore her? Your Ernalda/Earth temple initiates should not. Your Orlanthi may well argue back, but likely depends upon their level. Orlanth initiates will likely have strong feelings of connection to the priestess/Ernalda - she's appealing to Orlanth (or her husband-protectors) in all likelihood. For those still skeptical, an Insight(human) might be a relevant roll.  Your Orlanthi priest will understand her guise. Does he counter by manifesting more of Orlanth? Or accept her arguments?

Humakt's glowing sword is obvious to those used to it too. Doesn't mean you don't respond to it. But the Ernalda priestess's appeal (and invocation of Charisma) may simply emphasize that this is Important to Ernalda, and therefore you'd better pay attention and listen.

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Will the other priestess(es) say "OMG(dess) - you're right, Our Great Mother has spoken - Tacos it is!" Or, will they go "Oi! Don't you try that on us, we know what you're doing!!!" And, go and cast their own Charisma (cos Sandwiches is better... again, champion or otherwise)

It depends. In a highly political temple, she'd likely consider the implications and her position (an Intrigue or Insight(human) roll). If it is important for her to counter the argument, I don't think it is a "don't try that on us", but "I, too, understand the will of the goddess".