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Do spells have a visual component (when they don't obviously have one)?

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21 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I could still change my opinion (especially after talking to my players) since my Glorantha technically doesn't exist -- I haven't started playing yet :)  But this is all very interesting because it helps me form a clearer mental picture of what the world should feel like, and also points at any problem that might arise at the table... I can totally see my players arguing at length about this specific topic, so it's nice to be warned in advance so I can establish early what magic is and isn't in my game.

If that's the case, the first thing to do as GM - before even starting - is to decide what visual and other sensory effects your spells will have... if any!

And, what's the general attitude to using magic in various situations... especially on/around friends, clan members, etc.

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9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I like the current management views that the differences in interpretations is where the creativity and originality can creep in. This has been mentioned by various members of the Chaosium Brass as being a feature and not a bug, (and it sounds a hell of a lot more sincere then similar statements from MicroSoft et al) at one time or another—not to universal accliam, unfortunately—so I hope this philosophy still steers the ship.

Yes it does. Everyone comes to RQG with a different purpose. There are many diverse styles of play and there are countless mechanical situations that need to be resolved in a manner appropriate for your game. Not my game - your game. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 11:17 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Cool. I'm happy with that...

I just don't think everyone would like to be on the receiving end... or just shrug their shoulders and accept it.

 

(trying to get through the modern material... most of the way through Sourcebook... next tackle/hurdle is the GoG...)

This stuff is all over Gloranthan literature. Many people fear that the entire God Learners project was actually a series of Trickster Lies. Same thing with Nysalor/Gbaji - the whole matter of Illumination is just a Trickster Lie. 

As for Charisma making it easier to persuade others, yep that is exactly what it does. You might hate Yanioth, but damn when she puts on her goddess aspect, she is so damn impressive that it is really hard to not follow her. She's not cheating, any more than Baranthos is cheating when he uses that 100% Orate skill of his. You know Baranthos is about to make one of his barnraising speeches the moment you hear that hackneyed opening, "Seven summers past, the wild queen, Cleopatra, dreaming her dreams of ruin on your lovely Empire, sailed her hopes into the harbour of Actium...." But despite knowing his oratorical techniques, even you find it a persuasive speech.

 

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17 hours ago, gochie said:

I really don't. If they agreed to a magic-free duel and one of them obviously used magic, he would be called out.

The very idea that anyone would even consider saying "lets not call upon Odin in this duel" is just bizarre and inconceivable to me. When Ubbe fought a duel with a king in the final season, of Vikings, he literally calls upon Odin to give him strength, and gets up and pounds the king into the dirt. It's like asking a Christian not to pray before a meeting, or a martial artist to not do their kata warm-up or focus their Chi before a competition.

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19 hours ago, gochie said:

I really don't. If they agreed to a magic-free duel and one of them obviously used magic, he would be called out.

Yeah, I would, because this would be exceptionally weird. its the kind of thing a gamer would do, but not people in the real world. Prayers and supplications to the gods before a duel were pretty standard. That's invocation. That's magic. The fact that it is hokum in the real world doesn't mean that people didn't do it, or that they were like, 'Hey, he's praying! That's cheating!'. The whole idea behind medieval dueling was that God would choose the righteous person. Equally, depending on era, duelists brought their own weapons which may well have been 'enchanted' by priests or master smiths. That's not forbidden. People aren't going to fight a duel without doing everything they can to change the odds in their favour.

It's merely have and have nots. 

 

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3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The very idea that anyone would even consider saying "lets not call upon Odin in this duel" is just bizarre and inconceivable to me. When Ubbe fought a duel with a king in the final season, of Vikings, he literally calls upon Odin to give him strength, and gets up and pounds the king into the dirt. It's like asking a Christian not to pray before a meeting, or a martial artist to not do their kata warm-up or focus their Chi before a competition.

 

9 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Yeah, I would, because this would be exceptionally weird. its the kind of thing a gamer would do, but not people in the real world. Prayers and supplications to the gods before a duel were pretty standard. That's invocation. That's magic. The fact that it is hokum in the real world doesn't mean that people didn't do it, or that they were like, 'Hey, he's praying! That's cheating!'. The whole idea behind medieval dueling was that God would choose the righteous person. Equally, depending on era, duelists brought their own weapons which may well have been 'enchanted' by priests or master smiths. That's not forbidden. People aren't going to fight a duel without doing everything they can to change the odds in their favour.

But... would they allow the guy to wear his Bear shirt so he could transform? (ie, go Berserk) Some things in some situations are acceptable. At other times, not.

In the other example we're using, and to try for an analogy, if there's a meeting (say, the Lunars are chatting with the Orlanthi and Yelmalians about property rights, tariffs, taxes and tributes), and someone brings down their deity with a big showy flash of light and huge glowy aura - how will the others react? "Oh, cool - yeah, ok, you've convinced us"? or...???

Which, as I've said, takes us back to the OP question - is such magic flashy or not? If it's not obvious, is there a good reason for that? Lie is specifically written with "undetectable casting".

Here, obviously, is where our Gloranthas differ... (I'd probably have that initially the spell has a glowy effect and a calling down light... which fades after about 10 seconds, but the caster has a very strong aura about them (not that people can usually see auras).

 

18 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

It's merely have and have nots. 

I don't disagree. The have nots aren't always pleased to be so, or to have the haves showing off.

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Just now, Shiningbrow said:

In the other example we're using, and to try for an analogy, if there's a meeting (say, the Lunars are chatting with the Orlanthi and Yelmalians about property rights, tariffs, taxes and tributes), and someone brings down their deity with a big showy flash of light and huge glowy aura - how will the others react? "Oh, cool - yeah, ok, you've convinced us"? or...???

Again, this happens in many Gloranthan stories. Gods show up, and people either acquiesce, summon their own gods, or run away. Sometimes the "gods" have a contest and people carefully watch who wins. 

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2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Again, this happens in many Gloranthan stories. Gods show up, and people either acquiesce, summon their own gods, or run away. Sometimes the "gods" have a contest and people carefully watch who wins. 

I'm still not getting whether you think this is ok all of the time, or only some of the time... (even if that 'some' is 'most')

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18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

But... would they allow the guy to wear his Bear shirt so he could transform? (ie, go Berserk) Some things in some situations are acceptable. At other times, not.

If its a duel to the death, good luck getting the Bear Shirt to not use it. If he's challenged in a duel, he'll probably work himself up into a frenzy regardless of social ettiquette. And if you can't take him as a Berserk, you shouldn't have challenged him. Ditto challenging a sword master to a sword duel. 

18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't disagree. The have nots aren't always pleased to be so, or to have the haves showing off.

Of course not, but they can't usually enforce rules that prohibit the haves from benefitting from their have status. Since community leaders typically would be haves in Glorantha (or society really), they hardly are going to agree to rules that prohibit them from using their own gifts...especially when those gifts are literally granted by the gods. 

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31 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm still not getting whether you think this is ok all of the time, or only some of the time... (even if that 'some' is 'most')

Happens all the time. Its "acceptability" depends on what god gets brought in and how powerful they are. Your community of Neolithic farmers gets visited by a tattooed stranger who wants you to help him fight against the lowlanders. Your spirits and elders, led by your Light Priest, say no, but the stranger says his god is mightier than yours. He challenges your Light Priest to the Contest of Manifestations. The Light Priest agrees and summons forth a a light as bright as the sun. "I am the light of the Sky," he says. The stranger laughs and a dark storm gathers in the sky, blotting out the sun and the blue sky. A terrible explosion is heard, as a thunderbolt crashes down upon the Light Priest, slaying him. "I am the King of Storms," he says.

The shaman says that the Storm King is a dangerous and deadly god, and that god is more powerful than the light of the Sky Dome. Your village agrees to let any adult who chooses to follow the Storm King into war. The stranger offers gifts and plunder, and many agree to follow him.

 

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

In the other example we're using, and to try for an analogy, if there's a meeting (say, the Lunars are chatting with the Orlanthi and Yelmalians about property rights, tariffs, taxes and tributes), and someone brings down their deity with a big showy flash of light and huge glowy aura - how will the others react? "Oh, cool - yeah, ok, you've convinced us"? or...???

If it's during the period of Lunar occupation in which worship of Orlanth is outlawed, that's different. Yes, obvious Orlanth magic would be cause for arrest. You might get off with crucifixion if they were feeling generous.

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8 hours ago, Jeff said:

This stuff is all over Gloranthan literature. Many people fear that the entire God Learners project was actually a series of Trickster Lies. Same thing with Nysalor/Gbaji - the whole matter of Illumination is just a Trickster Lie. 

As for Charisma making it easier to persuade others, yep that is exactly what it does. You might hate Yanioth, but damn when she puts on her goddess aspect, she is so damn impressive that it is really hard to not follow her. She's not cheating, any more than Baranthos is cheating when he uses that 100% Orate skill of his. You know Baranthos is about to make one of his barnraising speeches the moment you hear that hackneyed opening, "Seven summers past, the wild queen, Cleopatra, dreaming her dreams of ruin on your lovely Empire, sailed her hopes into the harbour of Actium...." But despite knowing his oratorical techniques, even you find it a persuasive speech.

 

And now I have this vision in my head of Barathos rousing a bunch of Western Malkioni...

"....and wizards now abed in Malkonwal will hold their manhood cheap! Whilst any speaks who fought with Us, on Saint Gerleth's Day!"

Edited by svensson

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As to the OP's question...

IMG, all spells have a visual component.

Rune Spells have a greater visual effect than Spirit magic or Sorcery as the caster is actually incarnating a portion of the Gods' power in the Mundane World. Thus, seeing a Storm Lord of Orlanth [that is, a Rune Lord /Priest] cast Lightning Bolt is truly impressive. His physical shape seems to triple in size for an instant, but not actually occupy more space, thunder rolls as the lightning leaps forth from the mythical storm clouds that have gathered briefly around him.

The sadly incomplete Prince of Sartar web-comic does a very good job of showing of magics... You can almost tell what type of magic is being cast in the artwork. I suggest looking at the last chapters during the battles aboard the Cradle to see what I mean.

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p 315... "Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the Mundane World; it is not an invisible act! The caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the
magical powers at their disposal. The caster might appear to grow larger (even if their SIZ is unaffected), burn with an inner glow, crackle lightning from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity."

(some might argue that the 'burn with an inner glow" might be very subtle...)

No, the Ernalda Priestess is not casting that spell in the middle of the meeting with the Lunars and Yelmalians in occupied territory just to get the upper hand in a debate...

Is she doing in the council meeting with the Orlanthi, LM, Issaries, etc etc tribal council? Still, in my Glorantha, I'd consider it grossly inappropriate and disrespectful to the other leaders.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Happens all the time. Its "acceptability" depends on what god gets brought in and how powerful they are. Your community of Neolithic farmers gets visited by a tattooed stranger who wants you to help him fight against the lowlanders. Your spirits and elders, led by your Light Priest, say no, but the stranger says his god is mightier than yours. He challenges your Light Priest to the Contest of Manifestations. The Light Priest agrees and summons forth a a light as bright as the sun. "I am the light of the Sky," he says. The stranger laughs and a dark storm gathers in the sky, blotting out the sun and the blue sky. A terrible explosion is heard, as a thunderbolt crashes down upon the Light Priest, slaying him. "I am the King of Storms," he says.

The shaman says that the Storm King is a dangerous and deadly god, and that god is more powerful than the light of the Sky Dome. Your village agrees to let any adult who chooses to follow the Storm King into war. The stranger offers gifts and plunder, and many agree to follow him.

 

I agree it happens,

However, the acceptability example you used is light-years away from the example I was using. Your example is one that I would understand and agree with. It is intentional and aggressive.

And doesn't really relate to the use of Charisma to woo your peers in the Tribal Council meeting.

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"Blast you for being a bunch of narrowheaded men! Violence is not the only option. Ernalda, grant my your blessing to show these woolheads that there is always another way!"

(Note that an Ernaldan getting this emotional is already a sign of extreme agitation...)

Edited by Joerg
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4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"Blast you for being a bunch of narrowheaded men! Violence is not the only option. Ernalda, grant my your blessing to show these woolheads that there is always another way!"

(Note that an Ernaldan getting this emotional is already a sign of extreme agitation...)

Fair... but hopefully rare.

You're actually helping my argument here... if an Ernaldan Priestess is resorting to using this spell in the meeting, it should be something really important and serious... and not just a random "I want Tacos for lunch" (champion or food...)

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3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

p 315... "Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the Mundane World; it is not an invisible act! The caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the
magical powers at their disposal. The caster might appear to grow larger (even if their SIZ is unaffected), burn with an inner glow, crackle lightning from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity."

(some might argue that the 'burn with an inner glow" might be very subtle...)

No, the Ernalda Priestess is not casting that spell in the middle of the meeting with the Lunars and Yelmalians in occupied territory just to get the upper hand in a debate...

Is she doing in the council meeting with the Orlanthi, LM, Issaries, etc etc tribal council? Still, in my Glorantha, I'd consider it grossly inappropriate and disrespectful to the other leaders.

Maybe so in your Glorantha, and that's fine. But in mine (and Greg's), this stuff happens all the time. Earth Priestesses cast Charisma and make sure that they can get the upper hand against warlords, Wind Lords, and the like. In our Glorantha, they do that in council meetings when it matters. Heck, they might be prudent to save those Rune points for the assembly meetings....

 

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37 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Still, in my Glorantha, I'd consider it grossly inappropriate and disrespectful to the other leaders. 

Tribes and lands are defined by their Gods, so I'm not sure why it would be "inappropriate". Also, I think that in my Glorantha I would want to show the brutal and unfair aspects of life in a Bronze Age-like society. Someone's "it's not fair! she made her Goddess intervene for her!" is another's "well, tough luck, you're just weak, your so-called God is weak and where is he? Looks like he doesn't even want to talk to you, we might as well take over your lands now, you pathetic piece of Bison excrement". One of the fun aspects of playing Six Ages (the King of Dragon Pass successor, which I didn't play) is how, at first, I was trying to play it diplomatically and friendly but pretty soon you can't show any weakness and you start raiding other people. Life is tough in Glorantha. They are going to use their spells, you better use yours.

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

and not just a random "I want Tacos for lunch" (champion or food...) 

I suppose the priestess wouldn't do that just because of the economics of Rune Magic points.

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Okay, I am getting extremely tired of coming to 

Do spells have a visual component (when they don't obviously have one)?

only to find we are not talking about spells, we are talking about 

Blah, Blah Blah, charisma, Blah, Blah Blah charisma. 

Could we possibly let this thread go back to its original poster and his original topic "Spells" and perhaps create a new thread about "charisma"... so those of us who never want to read another word on this topic as long as they game can avoid the thread For the sake of all the gods. please!

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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10 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Okay, I am getting extremely tired of coming to 

Do spells have a visual component (when they don't obviously have one)?

only to find we are not talking about spells, we are talking about 

Blah, Blah Blah, charisma, Blah, Blah Blah charisma. 

Could we possibly let this thread go back to its original poster and his original topic "Spells" and perhaps create a new thread about "charisma"... so those of us who never want to read another word on this topic as long as they game can avoid the thread For the sake of all the gods. please!

That large, bold text... Is that where you cast Charisma in order to convince everyone?

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2 minutes ago, Sumath said:

That large, bold text... Is that where you cast Charisma in order to convince everyone?

oops my bad. no actually that was how it came over from cut and paste and I was too lazy to do anything about it 

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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22 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Okay, I am getting extremely tired of coming to 

Do spells have a visual component (when they don't obviously have one)?

only to find we are not talking about spells, we are talking about 

Blah, Blah Blah, charisma, Blah, Blah Blah charisma. 

Could we possibly let this thread go back to its original poster and his original topic "Spells" and perhaps create a new thread about "charisma"... so those of us who never want to read another word on this topic as long as they game can avoid the thread For the sake of all the gods. please!

I think the thread's question was answered with p. 315... "Using a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god to affect the Mundane World; it is not an invisible act! The caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the magical powers at their disposal. The caster might appear to grow larger (even if their SIZ is unaffected), burn with an inner glow, crackle lightning from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity."

The new question that arose from the thread is more along the lines of "should more spells specifically have no visual effect (like Lie)", and we're arguing about Charisma as an example of those that might pose a problem.

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Nah don't leave remain and lets set this bad boy back on its wheels

Anyone care to guess what the sensory components to bladesharp would be, I imagine it will change according to the god the spirit spell came from. An orlanthi bladesharp would sound a little wind like as its owner slices with it. Light glinting off it might look a little like a flash of ighting So what would a shamanistic one sound and look like like, 

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