Steal Breath... et al

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

Is it clear?

Clearly not.

[Ynneadwraith]

Another old thread, but are we so sure that tapping destroys creation? Are we sure we trust the people telling us this, or is it another knee-jerk demonisation of God-Learner practices?

Could it be that 'Tap Air' simply destroys Air in order to create something different? Still abhorrent to an Orlanthi, but not so world-ending as the destruction of all magical potential. Could one use tapping to syphon all the magic out of Air and transfer it into something else? Say, Moon, for a Windstop explanation.

Does Glorantha's creation follow the same principles as thermodynamics: where magic can neither be created or destroyed, only changed?

I suppose all that depends on whether your Glorantha ends in the mundane world, or whether that's the fever dream of a hopelessly optimistic Invisible God.

Also, as an aside, is tapping the 'Entika' spear Kendathalus to syphon the life-water from Oslira?

[David Scott]

30 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Could it be that 'Tap Air' simply destroys Air in order to create something different? Still abhorrent to an Orlanthi, but not so world-ending as the destruction of all magical potential. Could one use tapping to syphon all the magic out of Air and transfer it into something else? Say, Moon, for a Windstop explanation.

Tap changes what ever the target is in to magic points (see Steal Breath and Tap Body in the Core Rules). If the magic points aren't used to make permanent things (that's what POW does through Enchantment).

30 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Does Glorantha's creation follow the same principles as thermodynamics: where magic can neither be created or destroyed, only changed?

I don't think it does.

30 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Also, as an aside, is tapping the 'Entika' spear Kendathalus to syphon the life-water from Oslira?

The Entika drained the water from Oslira, then it fell as rain filling a the ditches of Dara Happa. It was a god-forged weapon  (Kargan Tor) not tapping.

[Ynneadwraith]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Tap changes what ever the target is in to magic points (see Steal Breath and Tap Body in the Core Rules). If the magic points aren't used to make permanent things (that's what POW does through Enchantment).

Any what happens to those magic points once spent? Are they meaningfully different to magic points granted by a god, or a spirit, which are similarly spent?

Perhaps the difference is they are untethered from their source, and spiral off into the Void (to return as Creation raining down? Who knows the ecology of Void vs Creation).

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Entika drained the water from Oslira, then it fell as rain filling a the ditches of Dara Happa. It was a god-forged weapon  (Kargan Tor) not tapping.

How much of myth is real-world events and how much metaphor? Or combination of both.

Could this god-forged weapon be tapping? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Any what happens to those magic points once spent? Are they meaningfully different to magic points granted by a god, or a spirit, which are similarly spent?

Above Dayzatar's realm there is the Source, a spring of energies that runs through runic channels (which includes deities and spirits) and disperses into the world. In the Surface world, these energies can be accumulated and spent by mortals (and spirits and demigods inhabiting those places). The magic put into spells as well as any not accumulated magic percolates into the Underworld where it ultimately dissipates into the Void.

Underworld magics can use some of that "snow" coming down and use the potential vs. some deeper underworld, but most human magic like Malkioni sorcery requires a higher form of magic (from the source) to be brought down into the Surface World levels.

Tapping takes some of this Source quality (and possibly the ability to accumulate such source energies) and turns that into short term magical energy which then can power spells if used up within the duration of the passive "holding" component of the Tap spell after the active extraction/transformation of energies. (IMG sorcery spells are the equivalent of spirits - magical entities with limited purpose and without (much) identity other than the mind-space associations of the sorcerer who constructed them.)

The passive component of the Tap spell acts like a temporary magic point matrix for the caster, a matrix that can only be emptied once the active phase of the Tapping ended and whose capacity is limited by the intensity allotted to that.

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Perhaps the difference is they are untethered from their source, and spiral off into the Void (to return as Creation raining down? Who knows the ecology of Void vs Creation).

There are a few non-sorcerous magics which also allow a temporary build-up of magical energy, like the Absorption rune spell which strips weaker incoming spells of their purpose, storing or rather transferring them to the caster of the spell.

Magic point matrices or dead crystals may conserve magic points donated to them indeterminately.

Spoiler

The scenario Urvantan's Tower in Pegasus Plateau works on the assumption that magic point storages can be loaned to others to use the stored magic freely.

 

Magic point or POW transfer to a wyter is a common occurrance, with the wyter priest able to command these points to power spells they (or the wyter) know.

Collecting POW donations for enchantments are a rules possibility almost as toxic as Tapping.

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

IMG sorcery spells are the equivalent of spirits - magical entities with limited purpose and without (much) identity other than the mind-space associations of the sorcerer who constructed them.

I suppose in my Glorantha that's a little closer to how I see it. All magic is fundamentally the same process, just approached from different angles. The main umbrage the gods and spirits took with sorcery is that is cuts them out of business. Love the idea of sorcery spells essentially being constructed spirits (potentially with a bit of spiritual uncanny valley for the real ones).

Though I appreciate there's a boatload of room for anyone's Glorantha to vary with this, and there is something poetic about the players knowing that sorcery is bleeding the magic from the world, knowing what Greg thought Glorantha turned into.

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Though I appreciate there's a boatload of room for anyone's Glorantha to vary with this, and there is something poetic about the players knowing that sorcery is bleeding the magic from the world, knowing what Greg thought Glorantha turned into.

Magic points used in Sorcery and Spirit Magic or for boosting Rune spells all go the same way. Most sorcery makes do without Tapping, using a variant of worship which cuts out the rune deities to empower "parish" wizards, or else milks bound spirits like everybody else does, only in larger amounts.

[Richard S.]

Even if Tap does remove magic from the world, remember that the Chaosium is always spewing new creation in through the underworld. Matter and energy are created and destroyed in Glorantha! Eat your heart out, Newton.

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/10/2019 at 5:05 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Less light =/= more dark??

Less dark =/= more light...

Since Darkness is an element, it's not merely the absence of light. However, it's hard to see how tapping darkness wouldn't make the place less dark. Perhaps there's a neutral, gloomy spot that you get if neither Darkness nor Light is there, and tapping either brings you closer to it but not past it?

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/19/2024 at 5:04 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

Does Glorantha's creation follow the same principles as thermodynamics: where magic can neither be created or destroyed, only changed?

Mt theory goes like this: No, the laws of thermodynamics don't apply in Glorantha, nor does conservation of mass and energy. Even the Second Law of Thermodynamics (the increase of Entropy) doesn't hold. Chaos constantly seeps into Glorantha through the Chaosium, but the Sacred Time rituals purify it into constructive energies. This is also why the pre-Time went as it did - Chaos seeped in through the Chaosium but wasn't purified (because no-one knew how this worked), meaning it slowly accumulated until things went to crap.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Since Darkness is an element, it's not merely the absence of light. However, it's hard to see how tapping darkness wouldn't make the place less dark. Perhaps there's a neutral, gloomy spot that you get if neither Darkness nor Light is there, and tapping either brings you closer to it but not past it?

Tapping Darkness might be problematic - there is only one orthodox Malkioni/Brithini school of sorcery able to deal with the special energies of Darkness (and Arkati troll sorcerers would not tap their native element, ever).

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Tapping Darkness might be problematic - there is only one orthodox Malkioni/Brithini school of sorcery able to deal with the special energies of Darkness (and Arkati troll sorcerers would not tap their native element, ever).

While I wouldn't disagree with the last bit (entirely), it does go back to the original question posed - what is 'tapping' actually? Is it complete destruction? Or is it a temporary altering of state?

When one 'Tap(s) Breath' and the Air gets converted to MPs, does that completely remove that 'air' (whatever that actually is!) from the universe? Or, as more Air rushes in to 'replace' it, does it only get transformed temporarily - and, ultimately, (like here on Earth) is all 'matter' only a form of energy (in this case, MPs?) Or, is something else going on? (This, largely, would be beyond the typical Gloranthan - and even sorcerers (although, I imagine the GLs would have been thinking this - perhaps even theorised it!) But it would mean - you're not destroying your own native element - merely converting it for your own purposes...)

And, with respect to Darkness (or Moon, or Light...), once it's been tapped, does the surrounding element get sucked in the same way that it does for Air? What about Earth or Water? Does that mean a more diluted element? Or, for some of the others at any rate, is there now a semi-(totally?)permanent thin spot?? If not, then it sort of implies a constant creation is at work, and 'tapping' sort of becomes quite irrelevant (not unlike if we use - or not - solar or wave energy - not using it goes to waste).

Leaving an empty spot actually makes more sense in this light (taking the pun!)

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

While I wouldn't disagree with the last bit (entirely), it does go back to the original question posed - what is 'tapping' actually? Is it complete destruction? Or is it a temporary altering of state?

When one 'Tap(s) Breath' and the Air gets converted to MPs, does that completely remove that 'air' (whatever that actually is!) from the universe?

The reply to this might be in the nature of the Neliomi Sea in the Gods War, which was tapped out of its movement rather than out of its substance. What remained behind was stale, lifeless water, devoid of spirit.

Tapping an element will rob it of its distinctive features - fire will lose heat and light, earth will lose stability, air and water lose their motive energy, and darkness may lose space (i.e. shrink) and fear.

Tap may be the inversion of the Mostali Stabilize magic (although that too may take motion, or at least random motion, out of air and water).

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Since Darkness is an element, it's not merely the absence of light. However, it's hard to see how tapping darkness wouldn't make the place less dark. Perhaps there's a neutral, gloomy spot that you get if neither Darkness nor Light is there, and tapping either brings you closer to it but not past it?

grey !

I imagine that when souls (trolls or humans or any other) "visit" the hells, before entering there own wonder home / hall / .., they walk in a sad path, where there is nothing confortable. No light to warm yelmites hearts, no air to ease orlanthi's breaths, no darkness to confort trolls, no flower ground (maybe even no ground just dust and stone) to enjoy ernaldans feet

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I imagine that when souls (trolls or humans or any other) "visit" the hells, before entering there own wonder home / hall / .., they walk in a sad path, where there is nothing confortable. No light to warm yelmites hearts, no air to ease orlanthi's breaths, no darkness to confort trolls, no flower ground (maybe even no ground just dust and stone) to enjoy ernaldans feet

While Subere is properly dark, like the real darkness we had in the good old days, not this newfangled stuff.

[Darius West]

On 5/11/2019 at 5:56 AM, Brootse said:

Why wouldn't they? Is it different from breathing?

The thing about breathing is that the air goes in and is then exhaled.  Tapping...? Not so much.  More of a one way trip.