Help me sell RQG to my players

[Imryn]

I watched a movie a while ago - i forget the name - but the hero had to kill the gorgon. He needed to get a sorceress to show him the way to the gorgons cave, and when they got close to it the movie had the very creepiest path imaginable leading up into some hills. I remember thinking "why'd he need a guide?" because the path was that obvious.

In Glorantha he would definitely need a guide. When he got to the hills there would be dozens of equally creepy paths leading to different lairs, and all but one would be completely unrelated to his quest.

That's where the ancient Greek comparison breaks down for me. Each story has only one myth active in it, only one set of mythical entities and events that are all related to the active story. In my head Glorantha is like having all of those myths active in the same story at the same time and a whole bunch more as well.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Imryn said:

I watched a movie a while ago - i forget the name - but the hero had to kill the gorgon. He needed to get a sorceress to show him the way to the gorgons cave, and when they got close to it the movie had the very creepiest path imaginable leading up into some hills. I remember thinking "why'd he need a guide?" because the path was that obvious.

The guide will have been required to pass the barrier between the mythical place and the everyday world. Compare the quests during the hunt for the grail.

1 hour ago, Imryn said:

In Glorantha he would definitely need a guide. When he got to the hills there would be dozens of equally creepy paths leading to different lairs, and all but one would be completely unrelated to his quest.

Not really. Destiny will make sure that he will arrive at his target sooner or later, unless he fails one or several of the tests/barriers on the way and gets lost.

1 hour ago, Imryn said:

That's where the ancient Greek comparison breaks down for me. Each story has only one myth active in it, only one set of mythical entities and events that are all related to the active story. In my head Glorantha is like having all of those myths active in the same story at the same time and a whole bunch more as well.

Sure that this is ancient Greek myth, or is this cheesy Hollywood railroading? Take Theseus and the Minotaur - it builds on the story that led to Daidalos' imprisonment and his son's flight too close to the sun. Then there is Ariadne dumped on Naxos... lots of branching or just namedropping inclusion of another mythic cycle, like all those poetic classicisct references in English poetry that require Bullfinch or a full classical education to have a slight idea what the poet is referring to.

But then, nowadays there are people who can recite the Gloranthan pantheons, the full catalog of Marvel or DC characters and their abilities, or name every Pokemon. Geekery remains, only the focus has shifted.

[styopa]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'd suggest reading a nice version of the Iliad or the Odyssey or Gilgamesh to get the Bronze Age vibe. There's Eric Shanower's Age of Bronze, Rosemary Sutcliff's Black Ships Before Troy (with art by Alan Lee), or David Boyle and Viv Croot's Troy. Or Ludmila Zeman's Gilgamesh Trilogy. Or get Mary Renault's classics like the King Must Die. Think ancient world, when gods interacted with mortals.

Personally, I'd say that a QUICKER way to get people into the 'vibe' would be to simply watch Hercules or Xena.  They're streaming pretty much everywhere and while kitschy they're decent shows and hew to the bronze age motif at least as closely as RQG does.

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Opposed rolls come from Pendragon, not MRQ.

Fair point, neither were my metier.  Thanks!

4 hours ago, Imryn said:

Personally I think the whole "bronze age" tag is a bit misleading.

It is, and it's taken far too literally by some.  It's only useful as a rough tag, and it identifies that RQG is playing in a more 'mythic' setting (and environment, mostly), ostensibly less tech advanced than that of your cliche D&D faux-Medievalist European campaign.  That's all.  More than that any IMO you're veering into YGMV.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

And that is what Jeff is trying to say when he invokes Bronze Age. What he really means is stories and heroic interactions.

^this.

 

[Imryn]

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The guide will have been required to pass the barrier between the mythical place and the everyday world. Compare the quests during the hunt for the grail.

Not really. Destiny will make sure that he will arrive at his target sooner or later, unless he fails one or several of the tests/barriers on the way and gets lost.

Sure that this is ancient Greek myth, or is this cheesy Hollywood railroading? Take Theseus and the Minotaur - it builds on the story that led to Daidalos' imprisonment and his son's flight too close to the sun. Then there is Ariadne dumped on Naxos... lots of branching or just namedropping inclusion of another mythic cycle, like all those poetic classicisct references in English poetry that require Bullfinch or a full classical education to have a slight idea what the poet is referring to.

But then, nowadays there are people who can recite the Gloranthan pantheons, the full catalog of Marvel or DC characters and their abilities, or name every Pokemon. Geekery remains, only the focus has shifted.

I think you are making the assumption that the hero in the movie is engaging in a heroquest, and that's a reasonable assumption, but its another place where the comparison between ancient Greek myths and Glorantha breaks down. In Glorantha "mythical" creatures can be encountered in the mundane world.

I think the movie might have been Wrath of the Titans (2012) - it had lots of nice special effects but I have no idea how true to myth the script was.

Edit: or it might have been Immortals, <shrug>

Edited June 19, 2019 by Imryn

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

lots of branching or just namedropping inclusion of another mythic cycle, like all those poetic classicisct references in English poetry that require Bullfinch or a full classical education to have a slight idea what the poet is referring to.

that's what really annoys me about some of the old myth sagas... Especially Greek. Two and a half pages of someone's background, just so you know who some hero kills... 😒

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

that's what really annoys me about some of the old myth sagas... Especially Greek. Two and a half pages of someone's background, just so you know who some hero kills... 😒

How is that different from Game of Thrones where the first season is the build-up for Eddard Stark to be beheaded?

[Shiningbrow]

Just now, Joerg said:

How is that different from Game of Thrones where the first season is the build-up for Eddard Stark to be beheaded?

Cos, it was interesting....

And, he gets some important cameos later as well....

His role actually was crucial to the whole thing. In the Greek myths, they're completely irrelevant - just a name drop.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Cos, it was interesting....

And, he gets some important cameos later as well....

But this is exactly how Orlanthi boasting prior to the duel works. Without all that grandstanding about the deeds of their great-grandfathers, a duel wouldn't last more than a few strikes with a blade.

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

His role actually was crucial to the whole thing. In the Greek myths, they're completely irrelevant - just a name drop.

First off, there is a likelihood that this guy managed to leave some descendants before getting killed, so this could be an instance of genealogical pride.

A bit like "In the Gbaji Wars, my ancestor fought Arkat, and parried once before getting slashed into halves."

Second, it establishes the credence for this opponent - it is a bit like the introductions the challengers in boxing are presented. After all, even if the champion wins, he had better not win against some rabbit, but a real challenger. Otherwise, you get a duel like Basko vs. Yelm (where Yelm didn't even notice his cousin).

Nobody wants to listen to a story about Rurik Runespear slaying a trollkin (although the reverse story never gets old).

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But this is exactly how Orlanthi boasting prior to the duel works. Without all that grandstanding about the deeds of their great-grandfathers, a duel wouldn't last more than a few strikes with a blade.

First off, there is a likelihood that this guy managed to leave some descendants before getting killed, so this could be an instance of genealogical pride.

 

Some times... but many times I found it was less about the deeds of the individual slain, and more about their ancestors When the trollkin kills Rurik, then the trollkin gives a long list of *Rurik's* achievements...  If Rurik did nothing noteworthy, but his grandfather did, it's much less impressive!

But, as I said, *I* find that tedious... others obviously enjoy it more. I'm not into name-dropping... especially when (IIRC) it was page after page after page of name dropping before someone is killed... followed by another series of page after page after page of name dropping for another kill...

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Some times... but many times I found it was less about the deeds of the individual slain, and more about their ancestors When the trollkin kills Rurik, then the trollkin gives a long list of *Rurik's* achievements...  If Rurik did nothing noteworthy, but his grandfather did, it's much less impressive!

Consider sport fans who boast of the achievements of the professional players in the team rather than of their own. What's the difference?

In RuneQuest terms the warrior reciting his lineage etc. probably is just firing up his Loyalty (Family/Clan) bonus for the upcoming fight.

And one typical theme in the ancient myths is the inheritance of family traits, so even if it was your Great-Grandfather who did something great, you are expected to carry the potential to do likewise. Or, in case of the Tantalids (e.g. Agamemnon), the prospensity to cause great harm.

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, as I said, *I* find that tedious... others obviously enjoy it more. I'm not into name-dropping... especially when (IIRC) it was page after page after page of name dropping before someone is killed... followed by another series of page after page after page of name dropping for another kill...

Of course we aren't the target audience for this, but we all enjoy a piece of expository flashback scenes inserted when a character presents himself in movies, don't we? (Like Eddard keeping re-appearing in Game of Thrones.)

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Consider sport fans who boast of the achievements of the professional players in the team rather than of their own. What's the difference?

I have a certain amount of Asperger's Syndrome - so asking me that question won't result in an answer you'd probably appreciate 😛 I get the need to do that occasionally, but (IIRC) it filled up half of the Iliad! I also get that we're a completely different culture in that respect - but if they did that in a movie or TV series now, it would get panned and cancelled within a week!

 

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

(Like Eddard keeping re-appearing in Game of Thrones.)

His  backstory and reappearances were essential to the main plot. In Iliad, they're mere window-dressing.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

I have a certain amount of Asperger's Syndrome - so asking me that question won't result in an answer you'd probably appreciate 😛 I get the need to do that occasionally, but (IIRC) it filled up half of the Iliad!

Yes, but that was the purpose of the Iliad - to cram as many names and characters into one poem as possible to cover everybody's important ancestors, unmistakeably (just consider the two Aiases, and plenty other barely distinguishable names if you don't give the lineage etc.). The Iliad is a catalogue of the respected ancestries for important people, the proof of divine blood enabling a lineage to rule. That's how you get dynasties calling themselves the Heraklids or even the Tantalids (despite the evil in that lineage).

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

I also get that we're a completely different culture in that respect - but if they did that in a movie or TV series now, it would get panned and cancelled within a week!

But the Iliad wasn't first and foremost a piece of entertainment - it was a re-affirmation of status for the hoi oligoi. It is a collection of celebrity selfies or 4 o'clock tweets.

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

His  backstory and reappearances were essential to the main plot. In Iliad, they're mere window-dressing.

In the Iliad, the main plot is the window-dressing.

[Sumath]

I'm currently reading Mahabharata: A Modern Retelling by Carole Satyamurti. Many of the themes of the Mahabharata are quintessentially Bronze Age and/or Gloranthan.

Kinstrife is a key theme: it's a story of two sets of cousins (the Pandavas and the Kauravas) forming rival clans, who are driven to war by one of them (Duryodhana) fostering a hatred of the Pandavas due to childhood bullying and an envy of his cousins' achievements. Duty, in the form of dharma, is also a key factor in the behaviour of the protagonists. Discussions of fate and right action surround Duryodhana's blind father, Dhritarashtra, an indulgent parent who is convinced he is powerless (despite being the king!) to prevent his son's actions.

Many of the heroes are semi-divine, being the offspring of unions between mortals and spirits, gods and demi-gods. Instantaneous conceptions and births occur on several occasions, and the birth of the Kauravas is monstrous. 

There is also a period of exile for the Pandavas (13 years!), a heroquest (Arjuna travels to the Himalayas to seek celestial superweapons from the gods, and spends time in the heavenly realms), a cattle raid and counter-raid, a battle with celestial beings (Ghandarvas), divine guidance from Krishna on numerous occasions, sacrifice (the burning of an entire forest of animals as tribute to a fire god, whilst the storm god, Indra, tries to prevent it - think Oakfed versus Orlanth), interventions by local spirits (river spirits, rakshasas, yakshas etc) and spiritual counsel from holy/wise men (Brahmins).

Magical weapons, such as the bow Gandiva, and never-ending quivers, are matched by the supernatural martial skills of warriors such as Arjuna, Bhima and Karna, firing so quickly that they can build structures in the air out of arrows. There are also descriptions of divine manifestation by Krishna, the apocalyptic scale of the battle at Kurukshetra (eleven Kaurava armies versus seven Panadava armies) etc.

I'm about half way through so far and although it feels very tangential at the beginning, once the many characters are established it's a very good read. I was hesitant in starting on the Mahabharata but Satyamurti's blank verse is as easy to read as modern prose and, whilst the numerous characters and lengthy names can be initially confusing, there is a useful glossary of characters and terminology at the back.

[Mugen]

On 6/19/2019 at 8:56 AM, Jeff said:

Opposed rolls come from Pendragon, not MRQ.

As a matter of fact, Opposed Rolls were included in MRQ1 because some playtesters suggested to use the same rule as in Pendragon.

[General Panic]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, but that was the purpose of the Iliad - to cram as many names and characters into one poem as possible to cover everybody's important ancestors, unmistakeably (just consider the two Aiases, and plenty other barely distinguishable names if you don't give the lineage etc.). The Iliad is a catalogue of the respected ancestries for important people, the proof of divine blood enabling a lineage to rule. That's how you get dynasties calling themselves the Heraklids or even the Tantalids (despite the evil in that lineage).

But the Iliad wasn't first and foremost a piece of entertainment - it was a re-affirmation of status for the hoi oligoi. It is a collection of celebrity selfies or 4 o'clock tweets.

In the Iliad, the main plot is the window-dressing.

In all fairness the main plot is not the siege of Troy, but the wrath of Achilles, and that's a proper character arc, can't be called window-dressing. Yes there's a lot of incident outside this main plot, there are the 'bonus content' sections that have been added such as the Catalogue of Ships and the Doloneia - but despite its length its pretty well constructed as a story. Other works in the epic cycle (for example the Iliou Persis, Cypria, Little Iliad), in so far as we can tell from surviving fragments, are pretty varied in their sense of story arc, whereas the other one that survives complete, the Odyssey, also so has complex narrative arc and structure.

The Iliad was devised to entertain, not to act as a source of genealogy. And it's way too long to hear it all in one sitting. But the audience for this entertainment was interested in names and genealogies of course.

But back to these Heroes' exploits compared to RQG 'heroes' - Greek legendary heroes are by definition born into it (they are all half divine, yet mortal). They are not on a quest to become something, but to validate or live up to what they already are. They have bigger characteristics, more intense passions, than normal folk. Their chief virtue is to do things that will be remembered in song, the klea andron, that's their immortality. 

[DreadDomain]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, but that was the purpose of the Iliad - to cram as many names and characters into one poem as possible to cover everybody's important ancestors, unmistakeably (just consider the two Aiases, and plenty other barely distinguishable names if you don't give the lineage etc.). The Iliad is a catalogue of the respected ancestries for important people, the proof of divine blood enabling a lineage to rule. That's how you get dynasties calling themselves the Heraklids or even the Tantalids (despite the evil in that lineage).

But the Iliad wasn't first and foremost a piece of entertainment - it was a re-affirmation of status for the hoi oligoi. It is a collection of celebrity selfies or 4 o'clock tweets.

In the Iliad, the main plot is the window-dressing.

I never read the Illiadand that short blurb is very informational. It makes it less likely that I will ever read it (so many good books to read) but still gives a context around the whole thing.

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Mugen said:

As a matter of fact, Opposed Rolls were included in MRQ1 because some playtesters suggested to use the same rule as in Pendragon.

You cannot go wrong with a rule inspired by Pendragon. RQG's Runes/Personality/Passions and backgroung based character creation is most definitely inspired by Pendragon and is the best part of the system in my opinion (along with how the runes interact with Magic). I wish Pendragon had an even greater influence on RQG.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I never read the Illiadand that short blurb is very informational. It makes it less likely that I will ever read it (so many good books to read) but still gives a context around the whole thing.

While I'm complaining about the name-dropping, I did also enjoy it! 

So, don't be too put off by what's been said above.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, General Panic said:

The Iliad was devised to entertain, not to act as a source of genealogy. And it's way too long to hear it all in one sitting. But the audience for this entertainment was interested in names and genealogies of course.

Thanks! I didn't think it was as @Joerg was suggesting, but IANAH(istorian), and my recent expedition into the book was through literature, not history.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, but that was the purpose of the Iliad - to cram as many names and characters into one poem as possible to cover everybody's important ancestors, unmistakeably (just consider the two Aiases, and plenty other barely distinguishable names if you don't give the lineage etc.). The Iliad is a catalogue of the respected ancestries for important people, the proof of divine blood enabling a lineage to rule. That's how you get dynasties calling themselves the Heraklids or even the Tantalids (despite the evil in that lineage).

Do you have any evidence to support this? (Genealogy guide, not entertainment)

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Do you have any evidence to support this? (Genealogy guide, not entertainment)

I was of course overstating my point. If you want a tour-de-force through the Iliad, you could do worse than Lindybeige's video on it, but Lloyd actually makes part of my point about 8 minutes into the video when he singles out one of the names entering to die. (Although that specific individual apparently lost the Darwin lottery because he had not even consumed the marriage he had paid for so dearly.)

The Iliad has been viewed through many a lense, e.g. through the importance of honor for the protagonists, as in this lecture which compares the heroes' motivations with those of gang members and PTSD.

But the importance of genealogy as an element of personal honor is something our egalitarian values play down as irrelevant. What do I care that your ancestors were better rapists and murderers than mine?

Apart from our genes, we also inherit our sense of self from our ancestors. Our cultural programming is built on what our ancestors did, on all the laudable stuff, and as much on all the despicable stuff they did or at least acquiesced to. Genocide, rape, plunder, theft, exploitation...All of that ended up in our material cultures. Our education and our absorption of entertainment is based on that, and while we like to think of these as individual achievements, objectively they aren't more than half that, probably a lot less. All the rest is (unfairly) inherited. Gains, but ancestral losses, too.

 

I hope that this search result will yield the same result for you as for me - a discussion of the scene between Glaucos and Diomedes and the impact of Glaucos reciting his lineage. Scrolling back a page, the point of these protagonists leaving descendants is prominently made. A bit later this source has a statement by Hektor that "fame is a common property that a hero shares with his family". This makes all the "son of the son of a hero" introductions useful as to make these red-shirt appearances significant opponents to the hero slaying them, but it also works towards the audience of the Iliad to share this ancestral fame as their personal honor.

Providing almost a who is who of the legendary age is a fairly unique property of the Ilias. The lists of Helen's suitors or the crew of the Argo fall short by hundreds of names. But then, more than three degrees of separation are almost impossible in the Greek myths.

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

You cannot go wrong with a rule inspired by Pendragon. RQG's Runes/Personality/Passions and backgroung based character creation is most definitely inspired by Pendragon and is the best part of the system in my opinion (along with how the runes interact with Magic). I wish Pendragon had an even greater influence on RQG.

When (and if) you love Pendragon. If not, you don't automatically consider it a good idea (nor a bad, by the way), but I wish Pendragon and Stormbringer had less influence on Runequest, in order to stay more ... Runequest.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Kloster said:

When (and if) you love Pendragon. If not, you don't automatically consider it a good idea (nor a bad, by the way), but I wish Pendragon and Stormbringer had less influence on Runequest, in order to stay more ... Runequest.

Pendragon came out of RuneQuest, and design-wise I find Pendragon to have very similar DNA to RQ2. The main reason Pendragon's opposed role system wasn't used in RQG is because we wanted to keep the dynamic of attack and parry for combat in RQ - and didn't want to introduce two very different "dice interpretation regimes."

[Kloster]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

The main reason Pendragon's opposed role system wasn't used in RQG is because we wanted to keep the dynamic of attack and parry for combat in RQ - and didn't want to introduce two very different "dice interpretation regimes."

This, I perfectly understand and I like your choice. I know (from my readings) that Pendragon came from Runequest, but my feelings are different of yours: the internals (what you called the DNA) is completely different.. Of course, I'm not part of RQ design team and have not access to all the informations you may have, but this is my feelings. Apart this, I was only telling that 'coming from Pendragon' is not automatically good, not that it is bad: I think the opposed rolls rule is a good addition to RQ (except for the above 100% part).

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

When (and if) you love Pendragon. If not, you don't automatically consider it a good idea (nor a bad, by the way), but I wish Pendragon and Stormbringer had less influence on Runequest, in order to stay more ... Runequest.

And I agree. There is always a limit on what you can bring from another game, however great it is, before you make your game less... your game. I still stand by my statement that if you have to be inspired by a game to modify RQ, Pendragon is a great choice because it's a great game with similar themes and a common rule base. Of course, KAP internal logic is based on a much higher level of abstraction than RQ so you have to be careful what you port over. I believe the influence of KAP on RQG is brilliantly done.

I am curious to hear what you believe came from KAP or SB that made RQ less RQ?

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Pendragon came out of RuneQuest, and design-wise I find Pendragon to have very similar DNA to RQ2. The main reason Pendragon's opposed role system wasn't used in RQG is because we wanted to keep the dynamic of attack and parry for combat in RQ - and didn't want to introduce two very different "dice interpretation regimes."

That is one specific example where the RQ mechanics of attack/parry works better for RQG than the opposed approach from KAP would have (I am basically supporting Kloster's comnent that it is not automatically a good idea to port stuff from KAP to RQG). I also believe that retaining the RQ parry/dodge approach and adding a rule for subsequent defenses (from SB?) works better for RQG than an action point system à la Mythras.