A Simple Question for Uz...

[svensson]

So, I have the GoG and the Glorantha Sourcebook. I also have TrollPack from RQ3. And nowhere do any of these sources answer a question that just occurred to me after 40 years of being a Glorantha fanboy...

Are there any Mistress Race males, and if so, what are their roles in Uz Society? One presumes that they are too important to go bashing about like some Karg's Son Rune Lord....

I can see this being a bit of controversy for Uz-ish theology, but there doesn't seem to be a solid answer anywhere I looked.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm pretty sure the Guide states outright that the term "Mistress race" is just feminine because trolls tend to name things in the feminine as a default, being a matriarchal society, so yes, there are male Mistress race trolls. In the same sense that - pardon the comparison - Hitler's "Master race", did not include solely male humans, the term "Master" just being an artifact of German/English gender biases.

Can't remember seeing any male Mistress trolls mentioned anywhere, though.

[jeffjerwin]

A lot of them died, being more expendable than the Uz matriarchs. By the time the Dawn came, the earlier generations of males had died fighting Chaos and the Hurtplace, and I think the lesser dark trolls were all that were left.

 

[Jeff]

There are male Mistress Race trolls. I can think of several - Gore and Gash, etc.

[Charles]

if I remember correctly, Arkat and his companions became Mistress Race within time

[jajagappa]

22 hours ago, svensson said:

Are there any Mistress Race males, and if so, what are their roles in Uz Society?

Given the rarity of Mistress Race trolls in the surface world at all, I think the logical place to look for them is in the Underworld where they undoubtedly are sent by the troll mothers to hunt demons, capture spirits, fight the daily invasion of the Underworld by Yelm, and many other hellish tasks.

[svensson]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Given the rarity of Mistress Race trolls in the surface world at all, I think the logical place to look for them is in the Underworld where they undoubtedly are sent by the troll mothers to hunt demons, capture spirits, fight the daily invasion of the Underworld by Yelm, and many other hellish tasks.

And get their HeroQuest cred built up...

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Given the rarity of Mistress Race trolls in the surface world at all, I think the logical place to look for them is in the Underworld where they undoubtedly are sent by the troll mothers to hunt demons, capture spirits, fight the daily invasion of the Underworld by Yelm, and many other hellish tasks.

Uzuz males will be in high demand as mating partners for high ranking females. No idea whether that leaves much time for any other kind of adventuring (although the mating will likely have intermittent heroic tasks of slaying intruders or hunting). And much of this will be at least underground, and when possible deep in the Underworld in the roots of the Castle of Lead.

Not sure I'd want to run such adventures, though. The fan-fic probably writes itself, but again, not sure I'd want to read it, either.

[svensson]

I don't know about that Joerg.

Most Uz material is pretty clear about how males are not important insofar as lineage or inheritance matters, all of that descending from the female line. It doesn't matter that a male has never sired a litter of trollkin, only that a mother has never given birth to one. Beyond that, how can it really be proven that holds fatherhood in so little importance? Females of breeding age are kept safely at home either doing their work for the clan, pregnant or actively caring for young. Trolls don't even have a marriage ceremony the same way that Orlanthi think about it.

I think I'm more inclined to believe Jajagappa's theory that male Uzuz are not seen because they 'adventure' in the underworld, only come out at night, or are otherwise tied up in cult tasks.

Jeff points out two Uz male cultural heroes in Gore and Gash, and I would add a third, the Only Old One of Shadow Plateau [all of whom I should have thought of in the first place]. Other than those, I don't know of any other Uzuz males that have gotten 'famous'.

As for Arkat-as-troll theory, it is possible that he was adopted as a troll [as in the Kyger Litor ceremony] but he was always still considered a human by virtually every other source. You almost wonder what it must have been like as an Uzuz male during the Gbaji Wars, being out-Karrg-Son'ed by a squishy human... lol! Remember, in the First Age an Uzuz was a heck of a lot closer to being a mythic Hero than even most famous and legendary humans. The average Rule Lord level Uzuz could pair off against a major human cultural Hero like Heort and it would be 60-40 and pick 'em as to who would win.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

I don't know about that Joerg.

Most Uz material is pretty clear about how males are not important insofar as lineage or inheritance matters, all of that descending from the female line.

Cragspider's Great Trolls prove that paternal parentage does amount to something. So did Bina Bang giving birth to Pikat Yaraboom.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

It doesn't matter that a male has never sired a litter of trollkin, only that a mother has never given birth to one. Beyond that, how can it really be proven that holds fatherhood in so little importance? Females of breeding age are kept safely at home either doing their work for the clan, pregnant or actively caring for young. Trolls don't even have a marriage ceremony the same way that Orlanthi think about it.

I think troll matriarchs do have something like a concubinate where other matriarchs send their sons. The uz must have some sort of breeding pre-selection, possibly similar to the Esrolian model.

Being selected for a mating is dangerous, painful, and very rewarding for male uz.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

I think I'm more inclined to believe Jajagappa's theory that male Uzuz are not seen because they 'adventure' in the underworld, only come out at night, or are otherwise tied up in cult tasks.

What cult task could be more important than to secure the next generations?

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Jeff points out two Uz male cultural heroes in Gore and Gash, and I would add a third, the Only Old One of Shadow Plateau [all of whom I should have thought of in the first place].

The Only Old One is the archetype for the shapeshifting Kitori, due to his mixed inheritance from Argan Argar and Esrola, and not a descendant of Kyger Litor. Hence not an uzuz.

His species is an adoptive species - presumably since Eurmal slew his son during the Lightbringers' Quest. Adoptees can be human, uz or dehori, possibly others as well, and they breed true, so there are (now) Kitori by inheritance, but it is still possible to become a Kitori by adoption.

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Other than those, I don't know of any other Uzuz males that have gotten 'famous'.

Eristi the Doubter, and possibly Borklak. Jeset is a great-grandson of Kyger Litor, a demigod, but also an uzuz

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

As for Arkat-as-troll theory, it is possible that he was adopted as a troll [as in the Kyger Litor ceremony] but he was always still considered a human by virtually every other source.

Only after the battle against Nysalor (which he may have entered as a troll or even as a chaos monster). I do wonder why he didn't become a Kitori rather than undergo the grisly rite of rebirth. But then, maybe he already had.

 

[svensson]

All valid points, and I'm not saying you're wrong. But I do think we came away from the same source material with a different sense of it.

As with all things gaming, your mileage will vary.

[EricW]

Eurmal probably provides a “become mistress race troll” spell at some shrine somewhere, for tricksters who fancy a bit of troll mama action. Spell lasts until someone accuses the trickster of not acting like a troll.

[Sir_Godspeed]

45 minutes ago, EricW said:

Eurmal probably provides a “become mistress race troll” spell at some shrine somewhere, for tricksters who fancy a bit of troll mama action. Spell lasts until someone accuses the trickster of not acting like a troll.

I was sure you were going to say "until ejaculation".

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, EricW said:

Spell lasts until someone accuses the trickster of not acting like a troll.

Spell lasts until the Mistress Race troll eats her mating partner. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Spell lasts until the Mistress Race troll eats her mating partner. 

That's just the start of the part of the "Through Hell and Back" heroquest...

[Noita]

My first ever pc was a male Mistress race troll, because I was ten and the stats were freaking awesome. We played  Apple Lane.

[svensson]

4 hours ago, Iskallor said:

My first ever pc was a male Mistress race troll, because I was ten and the stats were freaking awesome. We played  Apple Lane.

In the very first game I played a guy decided he wanted to be an Ogre and was so happy when he rolled a Chaos Feature....

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's just the start of the part of the "Through Hell and Back" heroquest...

Ok, my smartass brain just went to Audie Murphy...

[EricW]

13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was sure you were going to say "until ejaculation".

All over in 5 seconds... 🙂

Edited May 15, 2019 by EricW

[soltakss]

On 5/13/2019 at 2:30 AM, svensson said:

Are there any Mistress Race males, and if so, what are their roles in Uz Society? One presumes that they are too important to go bashing about like some Karg's Son Rune Lord....

Yes, there are Mistress Race Males. They aren't as important as Mistress race females, but are the magical leaders of the Trolls Warriors.

Arkat Kingtroll was a Mistress Race Troll, as were his Companions. It mentions somewhere that when they were transformed they all came out as Mistress Race Trolls, a previously unheard of event.

All Trolls born in Wonderhome were Mistress Race Trolls. Mistress Race Trolls breed true, so a male child born to two Mistress race Trolls would be Mistress Race Trolls.

[soltakss]

On 5/14/2019 at 10:29 AM, svensson said:

Jeff points out two Uz male cultural heroes in Gore and Gash, and I would add a third, the Only Old One of Shadow Plateau [all of whom I should have thought of in the first place].

The Only Old One is always portrayed as a Dark Troll, if I remember correctly. He also proved himself to be a Troll to one group of HeroQuestors and Not a Troll to another. He should be a Mistress Race Troll, but was a bit different.

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Only Old One is always portrayed as a Dark Troll, if I remember correctly.

Nope.  Tis Argan Argar who's depicted as such;

Quote

He is graven as a dark troll (never as one of the mistress race) with large eyes. His right hand is extended and his left hand holds a spear. He is usually carved from igneous rock.

Sartar Companion p245 (originally from the GoG Prosopaedia https://www.glorantha.com/docs/argan-argar/)

 

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

He also proved himself to be a Troll to one group of HeroQuestors and Not a Troll to another. He should be a Mistress Race Troll, but was a bit different.

Nothing about Heroquesters.  

Quote

The dwarfs of Gemborg were the first group to dissent,
uniquely while their ancient Silver Age hero was still alive. He
and the Only Old One fought hand to hand, and the Only Old
One proved he was no troll, for iron did not burn him. But the
dwarf lord still rebelled, and his human followers used volcanic
powers from their area to drive off troll armies in 123 S.T.

RuneQuest Companion p28

After the Dragonkill War of 1100,
the Only Old One proved himself to be a troll in magical contest
with Kajak-ab Brain Eater and so shared rule of Dragon Pass with
the leaders in Dagori Inkarth. This led eventually to the first troll
civil war in Dragon Pass which weakened the Shadowland trolls
greatly.

RuneQuest Companion p29

 

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

Nothing about Heroquesters.  

Quote

The dwarfs of Gemborg were the first group to dissent,
uniquely while their ancient Silver Age hero was still alive. He
and the Only Old One fought hand to hand, and the Only Old
One proved he was no troll, for iron did not burn him. But the
dwarf lord still rebelled, and his human followers used volcanic
powers from their area to drive off troll armies in 123 S.T.

RuneQuest Companion p28

After the Dragonkill War of 1100,
the Only Old One proved himself to be a troll in magical contest
with Kajak-ab Brain Eater and so shared rule of Dragon Pass with
the leaders in Dagori Inkarth. This led eventually to the first troll
civil war in Dragon Pass which weakened the Shadowland trolls
greatly.

RuneQuest Companion p29

 

So, he fought a Silver Age Mostali Hero in hand to hand combat and proved himself a troll in magical contest with a troll? Sounds like HeroQuesting to me.

 

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

Nope.  Tis Argan Argar who's depicted as such;

Quote

He is graven as a dark troll (never as one of the mistress race) with large eyes. His right hand is extended and his left hand holds a spear. He is usually carved from igneous rock.

Sartar Companion p245 (originally from the GoG Prosopaedia https://www.glorantha.com/docs/argan-argar/)

 

Mistress race Trolls breed true, so someone with two Mistress race Trolls as parents is going to be a Mistress race Troll. However, someone with a Dark troll as a parent is going to be a Dark Troll, by and large. Maybe if his mother was a Troll Goddess, he'd have been a Mistress Race Troll, but his mother was Esrola, I think.

That says to me that he would be a Dark Troll.

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

So, he fought a Silver Age Mostali Hero in hand to hand combat and proved himself a troll in magical contest with a troll? Sounds like HeroQuesting to me.

If you're going to redefine terms into meaningnessless so that you can pretend your original statement was not in error, don't bother responding to others.  Just take it as given that they will agree with your definition and everybody will be happier.

 

 

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

However, someone with a Dark troll as a parent is going to be a Dark Troll, by and large. Maybe if his mother was a Troll Goddess, he'd have been a Mistress Race Troll, but his mother was Esrola, I think.

That says to me that he would be a Dark Troll.

Argan Argar is depicted as a Dark Troll, which is not the same thing as being a Dark Troll.  Being a God means that his children would be Mistress Race IMO.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Only Old One is always portrayed as a Dark Troll, if I remember correctly. He also proved himself to be a Troll to one group of HeroQuestors and Not a Troll to another. He should be a Mistress Race Troll, but was a bit different.

Many a troll born as a mistress race troll was burnt or mutated into something lesser. Dark Trolls are the result of Lamarckian inheritance, as are Cave Trolls and Sea Trolls.

The Only Old One was not born to an uz mother, but to Esrola. He was kind of unique (as his name suggests).

[boztakang]

On 5/17/2019 at 10:47 AM, soltakss said:

Mistress Race Trolls breed true

I don't believe this is the case, not since Yelm killed Korasting at Hanroo field.