The Ultimate Power of Shaggy and sheep

[Marty Jopson]

My son (14) announced that he wanted to play a duck character with the Ultimate Power of Shaggy and the ability to make a herd of sheep appear to confuse his foes. On further questioning the power of Shaggy (from Scooby Doo) would appear to be luck based. Possibly I can convince him to play an aged duck grandmother worshipping Asrelia (and assuming I can work up a cult description for Asrelia), but it is neither very adventurer worthy nor does it sort out the sheep issue.  

Instead I am leaning towards Eurmal and allow him to describe any magic he does as fortunate happenstance. The sheep can then be illusory. But is it me, or are Illusion rune spells a bit rubbish?

To create a single illusory sheep that moves and sounds like a sheep would set you back 5 rune points

A really small sheep weighs about 50kg which makes it SIZ 7 or 8 - which is 3 points of Illusory Sight, +1 point for Illusory Motion and +1 for Illusory Sound. 

Am I reading this wrong? Or is creating illusory sheep just a rubbish use of the spells? You could, for the same cost, create three (SIZ 3) fighting shadow cats. 

[Shiningbrow]

39 minutes ago, Marty Jopson said:

Or is creating illusory sheep just a rubbish use of the spells? 

And somehow, in Glorantha, that doesn't come across as a silly question 😛

[Stew Stansfield]

This is a wonderful idea and RuneQuest should bend like space-time around it to make it happen!

No, I don't think you're reading the rules as written incorrectly at all. Illusion spell costs can be quite high. I've noticed this a bit (particularly when I was trying to convert one of Charlie's old duck PCs, who had the Image Creation spell from Ray's Three Feathered Rivals cult, to RQG).

I'm not as clued-up on RQ as others, so they can advise better – but I'd happily allow the Ultimate Power of Shaggy as, say, a 3-point Rune spell that summons 2D6 non-material sheep that bleat and move... albeit perhaps not where the caster wants them to. For that you need an illusory sheep dog...

[PhilHibbs]

On 5/13/2019 at 10:46 AM, Marty Jopson said:

To create a single illusory sheep that moves and sounds like a sheep would set you back 5 rune points...

...Am I reading this wrong? Or is creating illusory sheep just a rubbish use of the spells? You could, for the same cost, create three (SIZ 3) fighting shadow cats. 

The generic illusion spells are very expensive, but since they are just that - generic - you can do anything with them, so it's reasonable that they have a high cost (not that everything has to be "balanced", of course). There are more specific illusions that are less flexible and less expensive, such as the Eurmal "Become (shape)", which are specialised illusions. My trickster had "Become Pair of Smoking Boots", which he first used when another character fired a Disruption at him.

So you could have "Fortuitous Flock" as a specialist illusion spell, call it 2 RP maybe,  or 1 RP per 5 sheep, that causes a flock of sheep to barge in between you and the enemy.

There's plenty of other options. For example, Road Runner has "Looks Real Enough To Me" which allows him to run through the painting of a tunnel on a wall or rock. On a special success, a truck drives out and runs over the coyote. That example needs a little more adaptation to a Gloranthan context than the Scooby Doo one.

Edited May 14, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

Illusory sheep might very well be able to headbutt, trample, smother or even warm people, and they should be able to eat whatever people have on them - textiles, parchment, food...

If this is a Trickster spell, the spell caster wouldn't be immune against head butting etc., but might even stage-dive onto them.

I'd make that spell stackable, allowing one command per extra rune point rather than 1D4 extra sheep. One use might be to make them form up in a circle and jump over a fence again and again... requiring a CON roll every few melee rounds of any observer to avoid falling asleep.

[PhilHibbs]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Illusory sheep might very well be able to headbutt, trample, smother or even warm people, and they should be able to eat whatever people have on them - textiles, parchment, food...

And if you use enough Extension, you could sell them.

[Tywyll]

5 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

My son (14) announced that he wanted to play a duck character with the Ultimate Power of Shaggy and the ability to make a herd of sheep appear to confuse his foes. On further questioning the power of Shaggy (from Scooby Doo) would appear to be luck based. Possibly I can convince him to play an aged duck grandmother worshipping Asrelia (and assuming I can work up a cult description for Asrelia), but it is neither very adventurer worthy nor does it sort out the sheep issue.  

Instead I am leaning towards Eurmal and allow him to describe any magic he does as fortunate happenstance. The sheep can then be illusory. But is it me, or are Illusion rune spells a bit rubbish?

To create a single illusory sheep that moves and sounds like a sheep would set you back 5 rune points

A really small sheep weighs about 50kg which makes it SIZ 7 or 8 - which is 3 points of Illusory Sight, +1 point for Illusory Motion and +1 for Illusory Sound. 

Am I reading this wrong? Or is creating illusory sheep just a rubbish use of the spells? You could, for the same cost, create three (SIZ 3) fighting shadow cats. 

Yeah, illusion rune magic is absolutely rubbish. 

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, Quackatoa said:

For that you need an illusory sheep dog...

and I have just the name....

SCOOBY DOO!

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
i cin spel, onest i no how...no nead too edit...weely!

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

Ultimate Power of Shaggy and the ability to make a herd of sheep appear to confuse his foes.

Sounds cool!

13 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

Instead I am leaning towards Eurmal and allow him to describe any magic he does as fortunate happenstance. The sheep can then be illusory. But is it me, or are Illusion rune spells a bit rubbish?

Illusions are challenging to create (except for the ones that only you can see via Hallucinate). There are other options though. Sheep are commonly associated with Heler the Rain God and clouds (many types are thought of as herds to sheep). Instead of creating Illusions, it could be a Storm-related Rune magic to Summon Cloud Sheep (must be cast when some % of the sky is cloud covered, or perhaps the size of the flock varies based on the % cloud cover). The Cloud Sheep are as ethereal as fog, but can move, make noise, and help hide you from foes.  Vulnerable to Solar magics  to clear away clouds (and perhaps powerful winds that blow them away).

p.s. such storm/cloud magic would also fit well with ducks.

Edited May 13, 2019 by jajagappa

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Illusions are challenging to create (except for the ones that only you can see via Hallucinate). There are other options though. Sheep are commonly associated with Heler the Rain God and clouds (many types are thought of as herds to sheep). Instead of creating Illusions, it could be a Storm-related Rune magic to Summon Cloud Sheep (must be cast when some % of the sky is cloud covered, or perhaps the size of the flock varies based on the % cloud cover). The Cloud Sheep are as ethereal as fog, but can move, make noise, and help hide you from foes.  Vulnerable to Solar magics  to clear away clouds (and perhaps powerful winds that blow them away).

 

That is so cool in that great Glorantha way! Do you think that this would be a spell justifiably in the Eurmali "book/lexicon"? It seems like it would be, but I am not an expert and you know how finicky myth can be on the lozenge?

Cheers

[jajagappa]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

That is so cool in that great Glorantha way! Do you think that this would be a spell justifiably in the Eurmali "book/lexicon"? It seems like it would be, but I am not an expert and you know how finicky myth can be on the lozenge?

If you want it to be! I'd probably make a Heler Rune magic. But one day while Heler's sheep were browsing the Stormwalk Mountains, Heler heard Orlanth's call to battle. Heler didn't want to bring the sheep to battle (fearing they'd by slaughtered), so looked for someone to tend the sheep while he was away.  Only Eurmal was around.  Eurmal was sleepy, or naturally reluctant, or didn't want to be bothered, and only agreed if Heler taught him the song to call the sheep since he didn't want to have to get up to gather them if they strayed. Heler gave in, and taught Eurmal the song.  But Heler didn't trust Eurmal, so made the song as ethereal as the sheep, and it's easily forgotten.  However, since then some Eurmali manage to find the song and use the magic still.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If you want it to be! I'd probably make a Heler Rune magic. But one day while Heler's sheep were browsing the Stormwalk Mountains, Heler heard Orlanth's call to battle. Heler didn't want to bring the sheep to battle (fearing they'd by slaughtered), so looked for someone to tend the sheep while he was away.  Only Eurmal was around.  Eurmal was sleepy, or naturally reluctant, or didn't want to be bothered, and only agreed if Heler taught him the song to call the sheep since he didn't want to have to get up to gather them if they strayed. Heler gave in, and taught Eurmal the song.  But Heler didn't trust Eurmal, so made the song as ethereal as the sheep, and it's easily forgotten.  However, since then some Eurmali manage to find the song and use the magic still.

Heler makes a lot more sense, I can see fogs and mists being part of his purview as well. Hmm, an inspired spell and an inspired choice of cults. Yer son sounds like the kind of gamer I like,

Cheers

PS Hmm, a Heler, Eurmali cross... scary!

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

That is so cool in that great Glorantha way! Do you think that this would be a spell justifiably in the Eurmali "book/lexicon"? It seems like it would be, but I am not an expert and you know how finicky myth can be on the lozenge?

Just have the Eurmali steal the Powers on some Quest, mundane or otherwise. We have always loved that with our Eurmali.

[Bill the barbarian]

36 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Just have the Eurmali steal the Powers on some Quest, mundane or otherwise. We have always loved that with our Eurmali.

I have always understood Eurmal in the great global trickster/court jester, the infant who avers that the emperor does not lack clothes. He is butt nekkid!

But (d'ja see how I did that, d'ja?) in the past couple of months in these myriad forums I am beginning to think I have a handle on them. Not enough to allow them as player adventurers but I think twixt here and the KoDP game i might know enough to begin to allow them (reluctantly, watchfully, and lets's face it, probably through outright deceitfulness and liberal applications of Lie spells on the Eurmali part) into clan circles one day

(nervous grin, followed by an unusual tick)

Cheers

Edited May 14, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
damn you demonic spelckekr, I said nekkid!

[Sir_Godspeed]

Your son has an excellent taste in memes. Shaggy is indeed a mighty yet callous god.

[Austin]

@Sir_Godspeed's comment is where my mind was going with "Ultimate Power of Shaggy." It's a meme/internet joke which was going around about 3 months ago? Basically, Shaggy being stronger than Superman, Thanos, Goku, Saitama, Harrek, Jar-Eel, Bugs Bunny, etc as a gag.

I'm not sure how to tie that into the sheep magics (although I really like @jajagappa's suggestions!) but maybe something you could homebrew for the Shaggy-trickster stuff would be based on Hallucinate, but combined with another Rune spell--or maybe phrased as a heroquest or other sub-cult secret--which lets his hallucinated reality become temporarily real for others. Basically letting your son pull the whole "unleashing my real power, but only a little" gag the joke's based in.

For reference,

[Sir_Godspeed]

Well, Shaggy is based on a stoner archetype, and there's stuff like "Drunken Master", so maybe there's some kind of hallucinogen-fueled superpowers involved. Sort of a "does eating this herb make him really powerful, or just so incredibly lucky that it just SEEMS like he's powerful, and is there a difference?"

If the drug analogy is a bit too adult, feel free to replace it with some other kind of substance, or ritual, or divine patronage.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, Shaggy is based on a stoner archetype, and there's stuff like "Drunken Master", so maybe there's some kind of hallucinogen-fueled superpowers involved. Sort of a "does eating this herb make him really powerful, or just so incredibly lucky that it just SEEMS like he's powerful, and is there a difference?"

Yes indeed, Scoobie Snacks ™! 

[Marty Jopson]

I suspected it was a "meme" that had been going around @Crel but there is no way I can keep up with a 14 year old on memes! Well OK - there is no way I can be bothered to keep up. Clearly I could spend as much time as he does looking at them but I have no desire to do so. As for the Heler cloud sheep @jajagappa - that is pure genius and also pure Glorantha. Making it mythic and a stolen ability for Eurmal gives it a real spin and takes it beyond just another woo power from the big book of spells. I will need to get myself into this sort of mind set when / if I ever get this RQG game off the ground. 

What do we reckon? A one point stackable spell that creates five sheep per point? 

Thanks all for ideas

Edited May 15, 2019 by Marty Jopson

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, Marty Jopson said:

A one point stackable spell that creates five sheep per point?

If a Heler initiate casting, then I'd make fairly predictable. Might make it one sheep for each 10 or 20% in cloud cover per point.

If a Eurmali casting, then more random, maybe 1D6-1 sheep per point.  He's not always successful!

[Noita]

23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

 

If a Eurmali casting, then more random, maybe 1D6-1 sheep per point.  He's not always successful!

I'd give it a chance that he summons something else too. Flock of geese, pack of dogs or a pile of sausages for example.

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If a Eurmali casting, then more random, maybe 1D6-1 sheep per point.  He's not always successful!

On a roll of zero, a disturbingly sheep-like other creature appears, acting disturbingly sheep-like? Hedgehog, woolly pig, feral broo...

[soltakss]

I'd just make it an ability that he can summon sheep, or, rather, can call nearby sheep to come to him.

If there are no nearby sheep, he might need a Runespell to summon them, Summon Flock of Sheep would do it, summoning his POW in sheep, through a magical portal. Of course, someone might want to know where their flock of sheep have gone and might come through the portal.