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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Oddly enough, Charisma (from Ernalda) uses Beast, and not Man (along with Illusion and Fertility!)

Nope. I checked the cults originating Charisma, and each of these cults has one of the runes. It would be weird for a cult to have non-associate magic using a rune different from the cult's (or its subcult's) runes.

Under that reading, Charisma from Ernalda uses Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin uses Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal (also for Orlanth) uses Illusion.

It also suggests that associate magic using an element rune may be useless to the associate cultist if she doesn't have a rating in that element (yet).

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And Dorastor has Broos and other Chaos creatures that are civilised, polite, and even act as healers...

And are illuminated so much that they glow in the dark...

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13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Look to Korean shamanism for some ideas. Everything has spirits. Your assistant shaman is more strongly connected to ancestors, the spirits of human communities, the spirits that watch over tribe and community, etc., while the spirits of the "wild" are more hostile.

Cool! A Koreanorlanthi shaman! I like that :) 

Thanks,

Alex

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43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Nope. I checked the cults originating Charisma, and each of these cults has one of the runes. It would be weird for a cult to have non-associate magic using a rune different from the cult's (or its subcult's) runes.

Under that reading, Charisma from Ernalda uses Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin uses Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal (also for Orlanth) uses Illusion.

It also suggests that associate magic using an element rune may be useless to the associate cultist if she doesn't have a rating in that element (yet).

Yes, if Chalana Arroy gets Analyze Magic from the associate Lhankor Mhy, she has to use her Truth Rune to cast it. Most will probably have 50% in that. More tricky would be when an Issaries or Lhankor Mhy gets Clever Tongue from Eurmal. Issaries would have to use Illusion, as their Harmony probably means that their Disorder is really low. Lhankor Mhy would have to use Disorder, as they have a similar problem with Truth vs Illusion. So the Issaries munchkin has a tricky choice - do they raise their Truth so they can cast Analyze Magic, or do they raise their Illusion so they can cast Clever Tongue?

I don't think an associate spell is linked to the associate cult's runes, though. Orlanth gets Charisma from Eurmal, there's not reason he has to use an Eurmal rune to cast it. He could use Beast, Illusion, or Fertility. Shield is tricky, though. Chalana Arroy gets it from Orlanth, does she have to use an Orlanth rune? I guess so.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nope. I checked the cults originating Charisma, and each of these cults has one of the runes. It would be weird for a cult to have non-associate magic using a rune different from the cult's (or its subcult's) runes.

Under that reading, Charisma from Ernalda uses Fertility, Charisma from Yinkin uses Beast, and Charisma from Eurmal (also for Orlanth) uses Illusion.

It also suggests that associate magic using an element rune may be useless to the associate cultist if she doesn't have a rating in that element (yet).

Yep... (as in, yes it's true, but...)

However, I understand the logic you give.

 

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think an associate spell is linked to the associate cult's runes, though. Orlanth gets Charisma from Eurmal, there's not reason he has to use an Eurmal rune to cast it. He could use Beast, Illusion, or Fertility. Shield is tricky, though. Chalana Arroy gets it from Orlanth, does she have to use an Orlanth rune? I guess so.

P283 - yes, you have to use the associated cult's Rune for the spell... which would be as @Joerg has it written above - if you get Charisma from Ernalda, you'd probably need to use Fertility, if you get it from Yinkin, you'd probably need to use Beast... ie, shouldn't get to use whichever Rune is your highest... I'd say it's actually 3 different spells, from 3 different deities, and we meta-gamers just happen to use the same name for it for convenience sake.

 

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

And are illuminated so much that they glow in the dark...

True.  I"m just pointing out that in Glorantha, there is the weird and wonderful.

So, a Stormbull with Harmony is possible!

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5 hours ago, Alexandre said:

This is interesting and is a disconnect that is happening in my game. The assistant shaman has a strong rating in the Man rune (for maximum spell efficiency, if nothing else!). So he should be civilized, should like what is made by man (warm baths?) etc. but this seems to be contrary to what you expect a shaman to be. 

There was (maybe still is) in northern Pakistan (way up in the more isolated mountainous region) that animists (basically 'shaman', although that's actually  a form of cultural appropriation) live in a non-nomadic or barbarian society - ie, they live in houses, and do all the usual stuff that city-dwellers do.

Shinto is not too far off as well (but, depends on definitions...), and that's very much in civilised society relating to a Man Rune. Not only are they honouring the ancestors, but also the local spirits as well (could probably use the word 'deity' here too).

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

...if you get Charisma from Ernalda, you'd probably need to use Fertility, if you get it from Yinkin, you'd probably need to use Beast... ie, shouldn't get to use whichever Rune is your highest... I'd say it's actually 3 different spells, from 3 different deities, and we meta-gamers just happen to use the same name for it for convenience sake.

So if a Chalana Arroy has Heal Body, and they happen to have a higher Earth rune than Harmony or Fertility, they can't use Earth to cast Heal Body because Earth isn't a Chalana Arroy Rune? I'm not so sure about that.

Essentially you are saying that there should be a rule that says "A Rune spell can only be cast using a Rune that the originating cult has listed". I can see the argument in favour, it's essentially an extension of the Common Rune Spell rule. I'm undecided on it right now.

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38 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So if a Chalana Arroy has Heal Body, and they happen to have a higher Earth rune than Harmony or Fertility, they can't use Earth to cast Heal Body because Earth isn't a Chalana Arroy Rune? I'm not so sure about that.

Essentially you are saying that there should be a rule that says "A Rune spell can only be cast using a Rune that the originating cult has listed". I can see the argument in favour, it's essentially an extension of the Common Rune Spell rule. I'm undecided on it right now.

"A Rune spell can only be cast using a Rune that the originating deity has listed".

After all, that's the power they're channelling.

(It'd be curious that many Chalana Arroy initiates would have an Earth higher than either Fertility or Harmony). And, as per Associated Cults spells, you have to use the Rune of the deity that provides the spell.. Ernalda is not providing the spell to CA.

Again, one thing that's missing from RQ in order to make the game a little easier on players is the use of common names for magic... So, instead of Heal Body, there should be Chalana's Joy, and Ernalda's Blessing of Health. If we had those as part of the rules, then there wouldn't be an issue which Runes to be using.

This currently doesn't seem to be a rule, and in fact there's a line that runs contrary to it in the RGQ book "rolls a Rune affinity the adventurer shares with the spell" (my emphasis)

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6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(It'd be curious that many Chalana Arroy initiates would have an Earth higher than either Fertility or Harmony). And, as per Associated Cults spells, you have to use the Rune of the deity that provides the spell.. Ernalda is not providing the spell to CA.

It may seem contrived, but it isn't really all that unusual.

Yanioth is only one rune experience tick away from this very situation. She has Fertility and Beast both at 85%, if she gets a tick on her Beast and it increases (or fumbles a Fertility augment and loses points), she has a better chance of casting Charisma with a non-Ernalda rune.

Nathem has a higher Movement rune than any of his Odayla runes, but there aren't any Odayla rune spells that have the Movement rune.

And there are cult rune spells that have to be cast with a rune that the cult that does not have. Find (Substance), for instance. Find Lead would clearly use the Darkness rune and Issaries doesn't have that. Find Gold would use the Fire rune. There may be Find spells which could be cast with more than one runes. Which raises an interesting question... what Rune would Sorala's Find Magic matrix use? Oh, a POWx5 as it's a matrix, that's easy. But if it was her own spell from Lhankor Mhy...

Also, it leaves problems, such as, what are Aldrya's runes? Well, now that the Bestiary is out we now know that they are Earth and Plant, so you can't cast Accelerate Growth with your Fertility rune. But before the Bestiary was out, that was an unanswerable question. Asrelia, does she have the Fertility rune? Can an Ernaldan use Fertility to cast Bless Grave, or does it have to be Earth? We don't know, because we don't know Asrelia's runes (without referring to an old publication or the internet - it's Luck and Earth, apparently).

In fact there's an unanswered question in the rules already - if your Seven Mothers priest gets Shield from Hwarin Dalthippa, what runes can they use to cast it?

Edited by PhilHibbs

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9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There was (maybe still is) in northern Pakistan (way up in the more isolated mountainous region) that animists (basically 'shaman', although that's actually  a form of cultural appropriation) live in a non-nomadic or barbarian society - ie, they live in houses, and do all the usual stuff that city-dwellers do.

Sadly Kafiristan was purged and the Nuristanis were converted.

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2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which raises an interesting question... what Rune would Sorala's Find Magic matrix use? Oh, a POWx5 as it's a matrix, that's easy. But if it was her own spell from Lhankor Mhy..

I seem to recall one of the Forum's Chaosium reps way back last summer saying Rune Spells in enchantments are cast with the magic rune? (unless limited against this I guess) which I believe means your choice  of which of your own runes you wish to power your roll to cast Rune spells in matrices. The quote alas, would be buried way to deep to try to find now, sorry.

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10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

True.  I"m just pointing out that in Glorantha, there is the weird and wonderful.

So, a Stormbull with Harmony is possible!

I suddenly envision a "refined" Storm Bull.  Drinks tea over beer, insists on a just-so "tea ceremony" (stylized & formal) prep, etc.  OCD levels of refinement, and Orlanth Save Us All if everything isn't p-e-r-f-e-c-t .

And, of course... everything usually isn't perfect.

 

Orlanth

Save

Us

All

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6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It may seem contrived, but it isn't really all that unusual.

Yanioth is only one rune experience tick away from this very situation. She has Fertility and Beast both at 85%, if she gets a tick on her Beast and it increases (or fumbles a Fertility augment and loses points), she has a better chance of casting Charisma with a non-Ernalda rune.

Nathem has a higher Movement rune than any of his Odayla runes, but there aren't any Odayla rune spells that have the Movement rune.

And there are cult rune spells that have to be cast with a rune that the cult that does not have. Find (Substance), for instance. Find Lead would clearly use the Darkness rune and Issaries doesn't have that. Find Gold would use the Fire rune. There may be Find spells which could be cast with more than one runes. Which raises an interesting question... what Rune would Sorala's Find Magic matrix use? Oh, a POWx5 as it's a matrix, that's easy. But if it was her own spell from Lhankor Mhy...

Also, it leaves problems, such as, what are Aldrya's runes? Well, now that the Bestiary is out we now know that they are Earth and Plant, so you can't cast Accelerate Growth with your Fertility rune. But before the Bestiary was out, that was an unanswerable question. Asrelia, does she have the Fertility rune? Can an Ernaldan use Fertility to cast Bless Grave, or does it have to be Earth? We don't know, because we don't know Asrelia's runes (without referring to an old publication or the internet - it's Luck and Earth, apparently).

In fact there's an unanswered question in the rules already - if your Seven Mothers priest gets Shield from Hwarin Dalthippa, what runes can they use to cast it?

Have you thrown those into the RQ questions thread?

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4 hours ago, Lord High Munchkin said:

Sadly Kafiristan was purged and the Nuristanis were converted.

Sad. Not surprised.

IIRC, the spirits they were talking to were call the Pari, which comes from Islamic mythology anyway! (well, I'll rephrase that - became associated with the Islamic tradition after Islam came along and altered their beliefs).

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3 hours ago, g33k said:

I suddenly envision a "refined" Storm Bull.  Drinks tea over beer, insists on a just-so "tea ceremony" (stylized & formal) prep, etc.  OCD levels of refinement, and Orlanth Save Us All if everything isn't p-e-r-f-e-c-t .

And, of course... everything usually isn't perfect.

 

Orlanth

Save

Us

All

Hannibal Lecter ...

Psycho/Sociopath who was very refined...

I can see someone like that in Stormbull - and when it matters, goes Berserk and wipes out Chaos foes. (has a Heroic Ability to Clean Armour after battles, so he doesn't look ruffled :p)

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Have you thrown those into the RQ questions thread?

No, the only rule question is "What are Hwarin Dalthippa's runes", and since I'm unlikely to have a Seven Mothers priest in my campaign it's fairly niche.

The other question is about a house rule.

Edited by PhilHibbs

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3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

No, the only rule question is "What are Hwarin Dalthippa's runes", and since I'm unlikely to have a Seven Mothers priest in my campaign it's fairly niche.

The other question is about a house rule.

Especially since Hwarin Dalthippa is not one of the Seven Mothers. Her runes are Movement, Moon, and Light btw. In Jillaro she is often associated with Harmony as well.

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52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Especially since Hwarin Dalthippa is not one of the Seven Mothers. Her runes are Movement, Moon, and Light btw. In Jillaro she is often associated with Harmony as well.

The question relates to the Shield spell that the Seven Mothers get from her as an associate, and to cast Shield you need to use any Rune of the deity granting the spell, hence the question. So a Seven Mothers priest who gets Shield from HD can cast it using their Movement, Moon, Light (Fire/Sky?), or Harmony (if they're from Jillaro) runes. I think that's the only case where an unpublished associate gives a spell that means you need to know their runes.

@Shiningbrow, your suggestion would grow this list to include all the unpublished associate cults that give spells that have more than one rune. I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, I do think it is worth considering, just pointing out an issue with it. I would probably not imose the rule due to the additional complication, Shield is bad enough already as quite a few cults get that from an associate so you need to look up the associate's runes and/or doodle them in next to the spell on your character sheet.

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50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The question relates to the Shield spell that the Seven Mothers get from her as an associate, and to cast Shield you need to use any Rune of the deity granting the spell, hence the question. So a Seven Mothers priest who gets Shield from HD can cast it using their Movement, Moon, Light (Fire/Sky?), or Harmony (if they're from Jillaro) runes. I think that's the only case where an unpublished associate gives a spell that means you need to know their runes.

I'm not seeing this as an issue. The Moon rune defines the Lunar cults. If you get shield from an associate Lunar cult you can always use your moon rune.

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'm not seeing this as an issue. The Moon rune defines the Lunar cults. If you get shield from an associate Lunar cult you can always use your moon rune.

It's fairly niche and unusual to need to know this, but there may be circumstances in which you need to use a different rune. If you just fumbled a Moon augment and have temporarily lost the ability to use it, you will need to know if you can use your Harmony rune, or Luck, or whatever, and the runes of the associate cult determine that.

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15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The question relates to the Shield spell that the Seven Mothers get from her as an associate, and to cast Shield you need to use any Rune of the deity granting the spell, hence the question. So a Seven Mothers priest who gets Shield from HD can cast it using their Movement, Moon, Light (Fire/Sky?), or Harmony (if they're from Jillaro) runes. I think that's the only case where an unpublished associate gives a spell that means you need to know their runes.

why do you say "any" Rune... Virtually all of the Rune Spells list only one Rune from each deity that has that spells. I don't think Shield should be an exception. Just because they're not listed (don't know why... I'd say because it's a leftover from RQ2 when Shield was readily available for most cults). So, HD needs to pick which Rune is used for this spell... (well, ok, the GM or Chaosium do...).

Note that Shield doesn't have the R-Magic Rune ... which signifies that any of the cults Runes can be used.

 

15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

@Shiningbrow, your suggestion would grow this list to include all the unpublished associate cults that give spells that have more than one rune. I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, I do think it is worth considering, just pointing out an issue with it. I would probably not imose the rule due to the additional complication, Shield is bad enough already as quite a few cults get that from an associate so you need to look up the associate's runes and/or doodle them in next to the spell on your character sheet.

As per above, it's going to become much less of a problem when it's only one Rune - and not just any. (It'd be nice if the associated cult's Rune for casting was listed when GaGoG comes out..

 

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On 5/15/2019 at 2:39 PM, Shiningbrow said:

So, a Stormbull with Harmony is possible!

One of the PCs in our old RQ Campaign played as though he had harmony not Disorder, to the extent that the other Players said that he worshipped Calm Bull. he was pretty good at killing Chaos though, but is a measured way.

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