HQG character creation different from core HQ2?

[rabindranath72]

Hi all,

so as I am slowly wading through the material for my Vikings campaign, I have noticed that the HQG character creation is apparently different from the HQ2 system. Apart from the free cultural keyword, HQG seems to offer many more skill points. Is this an optional rule somewhere in HQ2, or am I missing something?

Also, it's not clear what happens if a distinguishing characteristic is instead taken as a flaw; can you choose another ability in its place, or the ability "slot" is simply lost? (doesn't seem a good trade-off)

Thanks,

Antonio

Edited May 15, 2019 by rabindranath72

[Corvantir]

As far as I know, HQ2 and HQG character creation are close but are each their own beast. The HQG character rules are not an option from HQ2 and are even different from the ones you can find in the Gaming in Glorantha section of HQ2.

As far as I understand the rules, you don't earn another ability slot if you chose to make a flaw of your distinguishing characteristic. About the lack of trade-off, I would reply that the HeroQuest 2 rules are not about optimizing your character but about creating the character you want to play.

You will find a summary of both character creation rules in the following file:

HQ2G_Character_Creation_Summary.pdf

Edited May 15, 2019 by Corvantir

[rabindranath72]

22 hours ago, Corvantir said:

As far as I know, HQ2 and HQG character creation are close but are each their own beast. The HQG character rules are not an option from HQ2 and are even different from the ones you can find in the Gaming in Glorantha section of HQ2.

As far as I understand the rules, you don't earn another ability slot if you chose to make a flaw of your distinguishing characteristic. About the lack of trade-off, I would reply that the HeroQuest 2 rules are not about optimizing your character but about creating the character you want to play.

You will find a summary of both character creation rules in the following file:

HQ2G_Character_Creation_Summary.pdf 85.49 kB · 5 downloads

Thanks for chiming in.

I'd add that the HQ2 rules aren't exactly straightforward when it comes to character creation. For example, the Gaming in Glorantha section shows breakout abilities at the same value of the keyword, but is that correct? What's the point of having breakouts at the same value of the keyword, if the keyword subsumes a potentially larger set of abilities anyway? (as shown in the Genre Packs chapter.) Also, is the magical ability at 17 in addition to the 11 abilities (so, it's free), or is it supposed to be the main ability that gets the 17 rating? Why the discrepancy about the list and as-you-go methods in terms of free abilities? (cultural, religion).

Thanks,

Antonio

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by rabindranath72

[Corvantir]

On 5/16/2019 at 10:49 AM, rabindranath72 said:

Thanks for chiming in.

I'd add that the HQ2 rules aren't exactly straightforward when it comes to character creation. For example, the Gaming in Glorantha section shows breakout abilities at the same value of the keyword, but is that correct? What's the point of having breakouts at the same value of the keyword, if the keyword subsumes a potentially larger set of abilities anyway? (as shown in the Genre Packs chapter.) Also, is the magical ability at 17 in addition to the 11 abilities (so, it's free), or is it supposed to be the main ability that gets the 17 rating? Why the discrepancy about the list and as-you-go methods in terms of free abilities? (cultural, religion).

Thanks,

Antonio

Unless I am missing something, I see no difference between the List Method and the As-you-go Method.

In the List Method, you have a Keyword (the other Keywords used in your campaign are free) and then pick 10 abilities right from the start.

In the As-you-go Method, you start with a Concept that includes a Keyword and an Adjective and then add abilities while playing until you have a total of 11 abilities (your Keyword, the Adjective and 9 additional abilities). I assume that the Keywords used in the campaign are also free but it is not clearly stated though.

In both cases you assign a score of 17 to your best ability and earn a basic score of 13 in all the other ones. This means that you end up with 11 abilities (with free additional Keywords) and can distribute the same number of points (20) whatever the character creation method.

About the Breakout Abilities without a +1, I have not found what you are pointing at in the Creating Genre Packs section of HQ2. Can you give me a page number?

In the Gaming in Glorantha section, are you pointing at the spells? If this is the case, the spells are not Breakout Abilities (and thus don't have a +1). However, a spell is part of a Grimoire that IS a Breakout Ability with a +1.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Corvantir
Typos and syntax

[soltakss]

On 5/16/2019 at 9:49 AM, rabindranath72 said:

For example, the Gaming in Glorantha section shows breakout abilities at the same value of the keyword, but is that correct? What's the point of having breakouts at the same value of the keyword, if the keyword subsumes a potentially larger set of abilities anyway?

Some people play that using a feature of a keyword that isn't described as a breakout could incur a Penalty, so having it mentioned as a Breakout avoids that Penalty. There is a rule about Keywords that are too general, I think. So, If I have Steadsman as a Keyword, I might be expected to be able to fight at my Steadsman rating, as Steadsmen can fight, however, if I say "But all Steadsmen can face broos without flinching" then I might be able to use my Steadsman Keyword with a penalty, unless I had Steadsman 18 (Face Broos), in which case it would be without a Penalty. If I had Uroxi as a Keyword, then I would be expected to face broos without flinching anyway, so would not incur a Penalty, but if I had Uroxi 18 (Face Chaos) then I would be able to stand my ground against any kind of chaos, no matter how terrifying.

Edited May 18, 2019 by soltakss

[rabindranath72]

17 hours ago, Corvantir said:

Unless I am missing something, I see no difference between the List Method and the As-you-go Method.

In the List Method, you have a Keyword (the other Keywords used in your campaign are free) and then pick 10 abilities right from the start.

In the As-you-go Method, you start with a Concept that includes a Keyword and an Adjective and then add abilities while playing until you have a total of 11 abilities (your Keyword, the Adjective and 9 additional abilities). I assume that the Keywords used in the campaign are also free but it is not clearly stated though.

In both cases you assign a score of 17 to your best ability and earn a basic score of 13 in all the other ones. This means that you end up with 11 abilities (with free additional Keywords) and can distribute the same number of points (20) whatever the character creation method.

About the Breakout Abilities without a +1, I have not found what you are pointing at in the Creating Genre Packs section of HQ2. Can you give me a page number?

In the Gaming in Glorantha section, are you pointing at the spells? If this is the case, the spells are not Breakout Abilities (and thus don't have a +1). However, a spell is part of a Grimoire that IS a Breakout Ability with a +1.

Yes, the difference I was outlining is whether culture, religion (and community, which is suggested to be free in the relationships chapter) are free also in the as-you-go method. The free abilities are marked with an explicit step (2.) in the list method, not so in the as-you-go method.

The Genre Packs chapter doesn't mention that breakout abilities should get a +1, and on page 10 where the Keyword concept is explained, it simply notes that the player should note how much they have improved the breakout abilities (two examples are shown, at +1 and +2; again, nowhere it's stated that breakout abilities start at +1 automatically.) The Genre Packs chapter shows sample occupational, cultural, species and religious keyword with long lists of abilities. Since there's no mention of +1s, I reckon that singling out breakout abilities at the rating of their keyword, means the remaining ones are considered non-specific? (so for example, in a contest, someone with a more specific ability would get a +3 or +6, as soltakss seems to suggest?) In the sample species keyword box (Elves of Ammelon), it also states: "plus any one of the following abilities", which I suppose is a way for the player to customise the keyword.

In the Glorantha section I was referring to spells. But there's no mention that magical abilities are breakouts. Actually, it states that magical abilities are keywords (and they explicitly start at 17) so it seems the spells in a grimoire (and charms) should then be considered breakouts following the convention previously established (i.e. no +1). If they aren't breakout abilities, at least they are syntactically equivalent. 

At this point, it's not clear whether the magical ability is free, or if one chooses a magical ability and it automatically counts as the first ability at 17. And also it's not clear whether spells or charms are free or should be bought. It's noted that Charms can be increased like breakout abilities by expenditure of hero points at +1 or whatever, and that spells are learned and improved like other skills. My gut reaction is that since it's not spelled out explicitly, spells/charms should actually be bought as abilities (up to 5 charms, as explicitly stated in Spirit Magic section, and 4 spells.)

Comparing with the HQG character generation and analogous topics, it's clear the authors changed quite a few bits, and I wonder whether the changes are only meant to reflect Glorantha, or if they should be considered as updates/errata of the HQ2 rules.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

Cheers,

Antonio

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by rabindranath72

[JonL]

On 5/18/2019 at 10:32 AM, rabindranath72 said:

Comparing with the HQG character generation and analogous topics, it's clear the authors changed quite a few bits, and I wonder whether the changes are only meant to reflect Glorantha, or if they should be considered as updates/errata of the HQ2 rules.

Broadly, the character creation approach laid out in HQG is more fully specified than the one in the one in the HQ2 appendix and SKoH with an eye towards guiding you towards qualifying for Initiate status or equivalent at the start of play. That's something a new-2-HQ player can fail to do with the more flexible spec in HQ2 without understanding the implications.

The magic approaches are more of an update (though the changes aren't huge), though there's nothing wrong with the earlier approach if it's more to someone's liking.  

On 5/18/2019 at 10:32 AM, rabindranath72 said:

The Genre Packs chapter doesn't mention that breakout abilities should get a +1, and on page 10 where the Keyword concept is explained, it simply notes that the player should note how much they have improved the breakout abilities (two examples are shown, at +1 and +2; again, nowhere it's stated that breakout abilities start at +1 automatically.) The Genre Packs chapter shows sample occupational, cultural, species and religious keyword with long lists of abilities. Since there's no mention of +1s, I reckon that singling out breakout abilities at the rating of their keyword, means the remaining ones are considered non-specific?

HQ2 examples include using the Package Keyword approach, which is where you see the many discrete abilities included under a Keyword like you're describing there. That method is nice where you're wanting keywords to work more like character classes, whereby they can create niche protection (for those who like that in their games) or mechanically reserve certain abilities that are in-fiction exclusive certain groups in a setting via keyword selection. 

The "Breakouts are a +1 (or more)" style is referred to as the "Umbrella Keyword" approach in HQ2. HQG, being a specific implementation of the HQ framework rather than a generalized toolkit book like HQ2CR, standardized on the Umbrella approach.

With Package style, the distinction between a keyword and a stand-alone ability is major. With Umbrella, it's more arbitrary. An ability becomes a keyword when you add a breakout. Otherwise there's not a big difference in play.

[rabindranath72]

18 hours ago, JonL said:

The "Breakouts are a +1 (or more)" style is referred to as the "Umbrella Keyword" approach in HQ2. HQG, being a specific implementation of the HQ framework rather than a generalized toolkit book like HQ2CR, standardized on the Umbrella approach.

With Package style, the distinction between a keyword and a stand-alone ability is major. With Umbrella, it's more arbitrary. An ability becomes a keyword when you add a breakout. Otherwise there's not a big difference in play.

Thanks for the reply.

However, the Glorantha Magic chapter in HQ2 mentions umbrella keywords when referring to magical abilities, but it doesn't use the "+x" syntax, hence my confusion. On p.108 HQ2 says:

Quote

All the magic systems make use of umbrella keywords (see p. 10).

So, if umbrella keywords are supposed to work with "+x" syntax as you say, either the above is a typo, or the magical abilities definitions are wrong.

[JonL]

1 hour ago, rabindranath72 said:

So, if umbrella keywords are supposed to work with "+x" syntax as you say, either the above is a typo, or the magical abilities definitions are wrong.

HQ2CR is not exactly known for being a paragon of clear and consistent presentation. 

[rabindranath72]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 2:38 PM, JonL said:

HQ2CR is not exactly known for being a paragon of clear and consistent presentation. 

Thanks for confirming my suspicion  

I suppose that even the number of abilities and points in HQG don't really match the suggestions in HQ2?

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, rabindranath72 said:

I suppose that even the number of abilities and points in HQG don't really match the suggestions in HQ2?

I went through at one point comparing the two, and IIRC did find them consistent, but just geared in HQG to create characters with stronger associations with their cults/gods or spirit traditions.

[rabindranath72]

22 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I went through at one point comparing the two, and IIRC did find them consistent, but just geared in HQG to create characters with stronger associations with their cults/gods or spirit traditions.

That is interesting. I attempted a comparison, but whereas I could find a match for the number of abilities assuming one of them is free (let's say Culture, as it's suggested in HQ2), the number of ability points seems way out of the suggested 20, unless one makes a few assumptions about starting scores for abilities. HQ2 seems to suggest that only one ability can start at 17, so everything else must be bought. Supposing that the occupational keyword ability gets the baseline 17, we end up with:

- 12 points spent on Runes

- 4 points spent on the distinguishing characteristic

- 12 additional points

for a total of 28 points. So 8 points come seemingly out of nowhere.

Now, the Glorantha chapter in HQ2 suggests magical abilities starting at 17 (but it's not clear whether this 17 is "free," or it's supposed to be the 17 we get automatically anyway.) Even assuming we get another free 17 per HQ2, we are still 4 points off.

 

 

[Ian Cooper]

On 5/23/2019 at 6:51 PM, JonL said:

The "Breakouts are a +1 (or more)" style is referred to as the "Umbrella Keyword" approach in HQ2. HQG, being a specific implementation of the HQ framework rather than a generalized toolkit book like HQ2CR, standardized on the Umbrella approach.

This is the key, I think. HQG is what we expect someone to do with HQ: take the Core, then drop some rules and add a few new ones to better emulate your setting. It should still be recognizably the same, but its ok to vary a little. (Think of the way BRP often had slight differences between systems).

[rabindranath72]

3 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

This is the key, I think. HQG is what we expect someone to do with HQ: take the Core, then drop some rules and add a few new ones to better emulate your setting. It should still be recognizably the same, but its ok to vary a little. (Think of the way BRP often had slight differences between systems).

That obviously makes a lot of sense. But it's not something one can "learn" from the book, as it's completely silent on this aspect; I suppose tweaking the number of abilities and ability points is kind of a "meta rule". To a newbie like me, reading HQ2 and HQG only contributes to the sense of confusion (and I am saying this as a RPGer with 30+ years of experience!)

[Ian Cooper]

On 5/26/2019 at 7:55 PM, rabindranath72 said:

That obviously makes a lot of sense. But it's not something one can "learn" from the book, as it's completely silent on this aspect; I suppose tweaking the number of abilities and ability points is kind of a "meta rule". To a newbie like me, reading HQ2 and HQG only contributes to the sense of confusion (and I am saying this as a RPGer with 30+ years of experience!)

Yeah, understood. It's something for me to pick up on in the new Core Book.