Ranking the most interesting cultures of Glorantha

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, The God Learner said:

Let's go mate. You can say I'm a Great Troll. But I'm not the only one. 

Goo goo, ga joob, Hey, Yoko, can ya bring tha bag, cheers.

You don't happen to know anyone who likes to beat things with  sticks do ya, I mean with a bit of swing, doncha  know?

[Bill the barbarian]

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

You don't happen to know anyone who likes to beat things with  sticks do ya, I mean with a bit of swing, doncha  know?

And a new legend was born as was the strangest HeroQuest™ that the Lozenge had ever seen... 

We now return you to your previously hijacked thread...

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[The God Learner]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

And a new legend was born as was the strangest HeroQuest™ that the Lozenge had ever seen... 

The first session started out with John, Paul, George, Stuart and Pete ...

 

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

The first session started out with John, Paul, George, Stuart and Pete ...

 

and a Great Troll, but not the only one (would that be "old" one?)...
and me too says Yoko!

But we are getting ahead of the story....

[Joerg]

Shargash probably is involved - or do you know another deity likely to wield a star club?

[The God Learner]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

But we are getting ahead of the story....

Later on, (spoiler) Paul is killed but gets resurrected.

 

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, The God Learner said:

Later on, (spoiler) Paul is killed but gets resurrected.

Somehow that feels wrong - the barefoot guy is supposed to resurrect others.

Edit: And while "Help" had a lady in red, she was supposed to be the sacrifice, not the resurrecting woman.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Joerg

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Somehow that feels wrong - the barefoot guy is supposed to resurrect others.

No that was another guy, we'll be bigger than him. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[The God Learner]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Somehow that feels wrong - the barefoot guy is supposed to resurrect others.

 

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

No that was another guy, we'll be bigger than him. 

We'll be bigger than Malkion, you just wait.

[Brootse]

1. Uz

2. Orlanthi

3 Sun County

[Sir_Godspeed]

I can never make my mind on a favorite. I'm the same with Lord of the Rings, or Warhammer, or Warcraft. I tend to jump from culture ot culture, race to race, and find really cool stuff with each. Some have more detail than others, but that's a different issue. Sometimes the incredible detail of miniscule Sartarite stuff even puts me off a bit.

I think I know my least favorite though. Mostali are interesting as a phenomenon out there in the world, but when I've read official stuff about their internal workings they lack the je ne sais quoi that most other cultures have. They seem to be intentionally created as an NPC race, and that makes me sad, as someone who loves the cliched Tolkienesque drinker-brawler-miner stereotype. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

24 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

They seem to be intentionally created as an NPC race, and that makes me sad, as someone who loves the cliched Tolkienesque drinker-brawler-miner stereotype. 

Even if Greg Himself "disliked the Mostali," an enterprising heroquester should be able to get in there and loosen them up. The mere fact that we know about their historical heresies suggests that a much more diversified experience is possible even though propaganda out of Nida and/or Slon argues against it in the here and now. The dwarves are not necessarily united. The Hero Wars are for them too, even if those that emerge need to sacrifice just about everything that has supported them in the past.

[Sir_Godspeed]

There's definitely stuff to love about them. Their sort-of-pantheist worldview of the world-as-machine, their castes, their view of themselves as constructed, their isolationism (small-i) from millennia of bad relations with other species, etc. But I am not a huge fan of the whole "every other being is raw materials for construction" and "if everything works well we'll never have to have contact with the other races" attitudes that gets a good deal of space in the Guide. The virtual total absence of dwarves out and about as active social agents just feels a like a bit of waste to me. Texts on what dwarves EAT even makes it clear that they're almost completely incompatible with human society - arguably moreso than aldryami, and certainly moreso than trolls. Hell, the portion on Teshnos goes to the trouble of pointing out that there's a Dwarf stronghold in the mountains there, but then immediately almost shoots down avenues for interesting ideas by basically saying it's essentially completely closed off due to them being the most isolationist dwarfs around. Bummer. (EDIT: I know there are plenty of reasons to justify this from an in-universe point of view, just in case someone takes this as an opportunity to pontificate on Mostali lore.  I'm more talking about it from a design perspective and moore specifically my personal subjective desire to have small bands of wandering dwarf masons lightly bantering with humans or hiring people to retrieve stolen treasure, rectify a grudge and such tropes.)

If Greatway gets more coverage, my impression might change.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

23 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

from a design perspective

One angle is that I suspect they've taken on "converts" historically . . . both individuals and even whole societies . . . and sometimes the process just doesn't take. This would be a way to bring outsiders in, get a taste of their sad lifestyle and then for whatever reason get out again with a tale to tell. At some stage these would-be dwarves can be put to work as contractors or bounty hunters. It's a good test of their acculturation (maybe some big brain in the EL caste is trying to engineer human-dwarf hybrids as a more efficient exploit of ambient resources) and besides, it's not like they're all that good at anything else.

Of course Glorantha having the bias it does, 93% of these would-be "half dwarves" probably end up failing, going rogue, defecting, backsliding toward meat behaviors. It happens and the real dwarves never forget. But necessity or some other reason keeps them trying.

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Even if Greg Himself "disliked the Mostali," an enterprising heroquester should be able to get in there and loosen them up. The mere fact that we know about their historical heresies suggests that a much more diversified experience is possible even though propaganda out of Nida and/or Slon argues against it in the here and now. The dwarves are not necessarily united. The Hero Wars are for them too, even if those that emerge need to sacrifice just about everything that has supported them in the past.

I have discovered thanks the current art and a few teasings here and there (some from here in BRP central) that Steam Punk Mostali are a thing and that thing is going to be in my Glorantha, It'll be my way of doing a different style of dwarf, and get that horrid article Greg wrote on Why I hate the Mostali out of my head.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

. Hell, the portion on Teshnos goes to the trouble of pointing out that there's a Dwarf stronghold in the mountains there, but then immediately almost shoots down avenues for interesting ideas by basically saying it's essentially completely closed off due to them being the most isolationist dwarfs around.

There is however a major riddle about them.  The Octamonists reject Diamond and Iron.  So why do they live in Diamond Mountain?  There is contact with the humans at Sabzevar (Guide p435)

 

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I think I know my least favorite though. Mostali are interesting as a phenomenon out there in the world, but when I've read official stuff about their internal workings they lack the je ne sais quoi that most other cultures have. They seem to be intentionally created as an NPC race, and that makes me sad, as someone who loves the cliched Tolkienesque drinker-brawler-miner stereotype. 

Miner/artisan hasn't gone away. What has gone away is the concept of the dwarf kings, especially the heroic fighting dwarf kings like Thorin or his cousin Dain, thanks to that minerals caste system. Rulers are gold caste, which doesn't fight, perform magic, mine, or craft. The Greatway dwarf party in Griffin Mountain (which does obey the post-Tolkien cliche) is probably the least canonical bit in that sandbox. The dwarves of The Hobbit have come a far way  from the original helper prototypes of Aule, and somewhere there appears to have been a multiplication step to get from the original seven to their tribes. But then, dwarves have been treated like Easterlings in the Silmarillion - some good, some evil, all greedy. In fact, Tolkien's dwarves are serving lots of racist stereotypes of his era (and those of C.S. Lewis in Narnia aren't any better). They are a step above their Icelandic precursors, though.

But then, the origin of the Tolkien dwarves as living tools of the Maker is really close to the origin of the Mostali. True Mostali are a lot less dull than their host of clay dwarf clones, a species of limited functionality with rapid self-replication being their main redeeming feature.

True Mostali replication and Iron Mostali replication are a bit unclear. We know that Mostal and the "castes so far" were required to initiate the first batches of True Mostali, but we have no information about batch sizes or repeated use of those production containers.

The Iron Mostali were the first batch of Mostali produced without Mostal, and they already were created with attrition in mind (unlike the previous batches). It isn't clear to me whether there are any iron caste clay dwarves, or whether all Iron Dwarves are actually Iron Mostali, not quite True Mostali, but neither the cheaper Clay fabrication. The Iron caste certainly wears several helmets - that of the front line fighter, of the weapon smith, and of the strategist.

 

The Greatway dwarves and their satellites (Dwarf Mine, Imther, Jorst, Pavis) are the least obnoxious mostali anywhere on Glorantha, IMO. The Gemborg ones are a treacherous lot, given their conflict with the Only Old One and their interference with the Machine Ruins. It isn't quite clear to me which side the quartermaster dwarf belonged to. For some reason (probably overbearing EWF demands, possibly more recently Saronil's "betrayal") Greatway refuses to deal with Dragon Pass, but does maintain low-level contact with Balazar. The presence of the Tusk Riders on their doorsteps might be a factor in this, too - to Greatway, the Aramites probably still appear as humans.

 

8 hours ago, scott-martin said:

One angle is that I suspect they've taken on "converts" historically . . . both individuals and even whole societies . . .

There are the Slon humans - possibly descendants of the Vadeli-owned slave population - and there are the refugees from the Dragonkill in Dwarf Mine who form the Cannon Cult. The Cult of Caladra and Aurelion appears to be dependent on the goodwill of Gemborg. And there is Ginkizzie's mother, a daughter of Pavis. This should be the complete list of converts. Other humans have been converted... into food, though, which means only very indirectly into Mostali.

 

8 hours ago, scott-martin said:

and sometimes the process just doesn't take. This would be a way to bring outsiders in, get a taste of their sad lifestyle and then for whatever reason get out again with a tale to tell. At some stage these would-be dwarves can be put to work as contractors or bounty hunters. It's a good test of their acculturation (maybe some big brain in the EL caste is trying to engineer human-dwarf hybrids as a more efficient exploit of ambient resources) and besides, it's not like they're all that good at anything else.

Humans with a taste of Clay Dwarf life? Or just cohabitating with Isidilian, and mustered out of the Cannon Cult for whichever reason? Together with apostates or isolated heretics?

8 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Of course Glorantha having the bias it does, 93% of these would-be "half dwarves" probably end up failing, going rogue, defecting, backsliding toward meat behaviors. It happens and the real dwarves never forget. But necessity or some other reason keeps them trying.

Isidilian pursuing his own prophecies? Something Sartar did?

The Slon mostali have a pretty sweet deal with their slave population. Nida shuns humans or other species, and probably did so already before Gonn Orta's attack. Curustus only sees Vadeli, their slaves, and Wolf Pirates. Of two Shan Shan colonies, only one survives. The Iron Mountains were invaded and subdued by God Learner sorcerers.