Gaining Shamanic Abilities

[Tywyll]

So, to gain a new shamanic ability, a shaman must "bargain with a Greater Entity".

How does a player do this? What mechanics are involved? How long does it take? I can't find anything beyond sacrificing ability points/taking taboos. Which I'm fine with if that's all there is to it, but I just want to be clear that's all ther is to it.

[Joerg]

54 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

So, to gain a new shamanic ability, a shaman must "bargain with a Greater Entity".

How does a player do this? What mechanics are involved? How long does it take? I can't find anything beyond sacrificing ability points/taking taboos. Which I'm fine with if that's all there is to it, but I just want to be clear that's all ther is to it.

You'll have to find the entity first, and bypass guardians  and possibly other petitioners. Ideally establish a personal connection through small gifts (sacrifices) to be recognized as a friendly visitor. Bring catnip for its beast companion, that kind of stuff. Greater Entities are entities you meet with respect and some humility, although also with purpose. Getting that balance wrong means your bargaining might be harder than necessary.

Some entities will gamble rather than trade niceties. So will some traditions - the Kolat tradition as described in Heortling Mythology for instance.

[Tywyll]

Is that in the book anywhere? Are there rolls detailed for it (as if you can't abstract it, it feels like you are forced to run a seperate session for the player every time they want to do it)?

[Austin]

12 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Is that in the book anywhere? Are there rolls detailed for it (as if you can't abstract it, it feels like you are forced to run a seperate session for the player every time they want to do it)?

No, as far as I recall it's not in the book anywhere. Yes, it frustrates me too. Yes, I'm glad none of my players are full shamans wanting to run amok in the spirit world yet.

My suggestion for now is to look at the script for the encounter with the Horned Man and Bad Man, and try making up something with a similar feel, but for the "Wind Man" or "Cow Woman" or whatever.

[Tywyll]

35 minutes ago, Crel said:

No, as far as I recall it's not in the book anywhere. Yes, it frustrates me too. Yes, I'm glad none of my players are full shamans wanting to run amok in the spirit world yet.

My suggestion for now is to look at the script for the encounter with the Horned Man and Bad Man, and try making up something with a similar feel, but for the "Wind Man" or "Cow Woman" or whatever.

Glad I'm not the only one!

Yeah, okay, not super happy with that. If I were playing a Shaman I'd be pretty non-plussed that I didn't know how my abilities worked. ;(

Also, real talk, I'm looking for ways of folding these abilities into the purview of Rune Level characters. I don't use shaman in my setting for various reasons, but I love the abilities so I want them to be accessible to Magus and RL characters, at least until Heroquesting rules appear.

So what would be a suitable challenge/sacrifice for a RL to gain these abilities? Maybe you can only make the sacrifice on Seasonal holy days or high holy days? Perhaps a successful roll of Cult Lore+Worship...if you fail both nothing happens, the god is not interested in your sacrifice (a fumble means you lose one point without gaining anything). success on one means the sacrifice is given and the abilities received, but you get random taboos/geas (if you were taking them). Success on both means you get to choose your geas? Crits give you one free point of sacrifice?

[Austin]

1 minute ago, Tywyll said:

so I want them to be accessible to Magus and RL characters, at least until Heroquesting rules appear.

I'm not sure about the Rune Lord stuff, but why not use the Fetch as a sort of variant on RQ3's familiar? Make it a "Pure Mind" or "psychic construct" or whatever. IDK if I'd let a sorcerer ever get access to something like Spell Extension though... Maybe the "fetch" would give bonus Free INT, or be able to store spells like an Inscription, but you don't risk losing the bauble.

Also, it seems to me that the thing behind finding additional entities is to get odder powers. Like, if you're a shaman of Waha and you want Spirit Affinity with fire spirits, you'd have to go find some being to help you--but if you want to get Spirit Affinity with animal spirits, gee, you'd just have to look around in your spirit world home place!

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I'm not sure about the Rune Lord stuff, but why not use the Fetch as a sort of variant on RQ3's familiar? Make it a "Pure Mind" or "psychic construct" or whatever. IDK if I'd let a sorcerer ever get access to something like Spell Extension though... Maybe the "fetch" would give bonus Free INT, or be able to store spells like an Inscription, but you don't risk losing the bauble.

I like that idea. Certainly better then the Familiar variations we've seen through the ages (sacrifice attribute points indeed...)

1 hour ago, Crel said:

Also, it seems to me that the thing behind finding additional entities is to get odder powers. Like, if you're a shaman of Waha and you want Spirit Affinity with fire spirits, you'd have to go find some being to help you--but if you want to get Spirit Affinity with animal spirits, gee, you'd just have to look around in your spirit world home place!

That certainly works for Spirit Affinity, but the rest seem fairly generic. I mean, sure you could say that Spirit Expansion can only be found with X spirit, but there's little narrative to hook it on.

And frankly, I'm not really bothered. I don't want to run mini-quests for these abilities. As an older gamer with older players, most of which have families as I do, time is at a premium. We simply can't play through several soloquests to give this the 'gravitas' I think the writers would prefer. Hence my preference for a means of abstracting it.

Humm...another option. Maybe each cult skill they master allows them to sacrifice once (meaning Rune Lords start out with 5 opportunities at sacrifice to start with). And on High Holy days they can sacrifice again maybe? That ties it to character advancement. 

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

IDK if I'd let a sorcerer ever get access to something like Spell Extension though... 

Out of curiosity, why not? I mean, what's wrong with them having a long lasting battle magic spell running?

[Austin]

Just now, Tywyll said:

Out of curiosity, why not? I mean, what's wrong with them having a long lasting battle magic spell running?

Oh, battle/spirit magic, no issues. I was thinking for extension on sorcery. Because half the balancing there is needing all that intensity in duration.

[Austin]

25 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Humm...another option. Maybe each cult skill they master allows them to sacrifice once (meaning Rune Lords start out with 5 opportunities at sacrifice to start with). And on High Holy days they can sacrifice again maybe? That ties it to character advancement. 

1) Poo on you, I like RQ3's familiars.  Of course we did some really weird stuff with them, which definitely wasn't in RQ3-base. I may have turned an AD&D miniaturized iron golem into my familiar and dumped way to much POW into it...

2) More seriously, I like the quoted idea. It makes a lot of sense to me to tie fancy new abilities to character advancement. Honestly, maybe you should think about foregoing the sacrifice, and it's just an opportunity to get X ability for Y geas? (It's not a taboo, only dirty primitive shamans have taboos!) Set it up so there's five or six abilities to pick for each deity to start from, something like that. You could even phrase the basic Rune Lord benefits (D10 DI, POW21 resist) in that way--when you've assembled all five powers, you're now that deity's RL. (IDK if that's a good idea--I'm musing.)

[Tywyll]

30 minutes ago, Crel said:

Oh, battle/spirit magic, no issues. I was thinking for extension on sorcery. Because half the balancing there is needing all that intensity in duration.

Oh yeah, no problem. I'm not entirely sure I'm going to use RQG Sorcery or If I am going to use Sandy Peterson's version (which doesn't balance with duration instead using Presence to store spells and limiting intensity by 1/10th of skill). In that case I wouldn't mind allowing it. But yeah, I wouldn't allow it with Sorcery as written.

 

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Tywyll said:

So, to gain a new shamanic ability, a shaman must "bargain with a Greater Entity".

How does a player do this? What mechanics are involved? How long does it take? I can't find anything beyond sacrificing ability points/taking taboos. Which I'm fine with if that's all there is to it, but I just want to be clear that's all ther is to it.

Go and meet the entity in the spirit world using the rules in the spirit world chapter.

I wrote up an example here:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7955-im-still-confused-about-spirit-travel/?tab=comments#comment-114593

Change the places and spirit to fit your situation.

[Tywyll]

27 minutes ago, Crel said:

1) Poo on you, I like RQ3's familiars.  Of course we did some really weird stuff with them, which definitely wasn't in RQ3-base. I may have turned an AD&D miniaturized iron golem into my familiar and dumped way to much POW into it...

But but how did you get around crippling yourself to make it? I just never understood it!

I did prefer the RQ4 version better where every stat is just more POW sacrifice. That felt more fair to me. 

27 minutes ago, Crel said:

2) More seriously, I like the quoted idea. It makes a lot of sense to me to tie fancy new abilities to character advancement. Honestly, maybe you should think about foregoing the sacrifice, and it's just an opportunity to get X ability for Y geas? (It's not a taboo, only dirty primitive shamans have taboos!) Set it up so there's five or six abilities to pick for each deity to start from, something like that. You could even phrase the basic Rune Lord benefits (D10 DI, POW21 resist) in that way--when you've assembled all five powers, you're now that deity's RL. (IDK if that's a good idea--I'm musing.)

LOL...I love the taboo remark. Good point.

That's an interesting idea, I'll have to mull it over. I admit I like the idea of 'partial' rune lords. Perhaps some of them are gradiated, so you can't take DI and POW21 except as your 4th and 5th power. Though should the standard abilities come with a geas? Or should the first five powers be 'free' (mastery in five skills granted...) and then after that you take geas for more?

I also want this for Rune Priests as well though, so need to consider that as well.

 

[David Scott]

I just realised that the bargaining bit is missing. If I have time I'll do another example where fishing meets the Twinstars and bargains for a power.

Please be aware that there are a few tiny corrections to the travel section (which my example uses) in the second printing corrections:

Page 357: Discorporation topic, 2 nd paragraph, delete the sentence “Every additional magic point spent during the ritual increases the time that the shaman can remain discorporate by one hour.”

Page 374: Regions of the Spirit World topic, last paragraph rewritten/replaced with “Moving deeper into the Spirit World imposes a modifier to Spirit Travel. Each step away from the Inner Region reduces the shaman’s Spirit Travel skill by -10% per step. Returning has the opposite modifier. It is always easier to return in the direction of the Inner World.”

[Tywyll]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Go and meet the entity in the spirit world using the rules in the spirit world chapter.

I wrote up an example here:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7955-im-still-confused-about-spirit-travel/?tab=comments#comment-114593

Change the places and spirit to fit your situation.

I enjoyed your scenario but that didn't really show 'bargaining' just battling with spirit. It also seems weird that a spirit would be hard to find when you want to give it gifts of your attributes. Seems like it shouldn't be so hard. Like surely they want your soul candy?

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

I enjoyed your scenario but that didn't really show 'bargaining' just battling with spirit.

As I said if I have timeI will write the next section.

5 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

It also seems weird that a spirit would be hard to find when you want to give it gifts of your attributes. Seems like it shouldn't be so hard.

"Big" spirits / Gods live in their own areas away from the middle world. They are not just sitting their waiting for you. Being a shaman is hard work. You might want to read about how real world shamans travel to meet big spirits.

5 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Like surely they want your soul candy?

The needy will yes, they are the ones more attached to the middle world and live in the spirit world nearby. More powerful spirits have their own agendas and aren't so needy of middle world souls. Although gods and spirits can't refuse worship (of mps and POW) they don't always seek it out or need it. The greater entities mentioned - Horned Man, Daka Fal, Waha, Hykim and Mikyh, Kolat, Kyger Litor, Jakaboom, and the Earth Witch, you will need to attract their attention - bring something good.

[Tywyll]

37 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As I said if I have timeI will write the next section.

Yeah, I typed my response as you were typing yours. 

37 minutes ago, David Scott said:

"Big" spirits / Gods live in their own areas away from the middle world. They are not just sitting their waiting for you. Being a shaman is hard work. You might want to read about how real world shamans travel to meet big spirits.

🤔Not to be insulting, but I don't believe in 'real shamans' (any more than I do priests or gods) so I am not sure how their 'experiences' could be germaine to what happens in the game. They certainly don't get lost in the 'spirit world' or eaten by 'spirits'. It's got no more baring on the game then pagan or Christian rituals do on theistic characters. Trying to base it too closely on real world religion would just feel like appropriation to me, if I were to try and run it.  

 

37 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The needy will yes, they are the ones more attached to the middle world and live in the spirit world nearby. More powerful spirits have their own agendas and aren't so needy of middle world souls. Although gods and spirits can't refuse worship (of mps and POW) they don't always seek it out or need it. The greater entities mentioned - Horned Man, Daka Fal, Waha, Hykim and Mikyh, Kolat, Kyger Litor, Jakaboom, and the Earth Witch, you will need to attract their attention - bring something good.

Fair enough. But what's the mechanics involved?

Ultimately though, I don't really want to play a 'decker' scenario (i.e. where one player does lots of stuff and the others twiddle their thumbs). 

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Not to be insulting, but I don't believe in 'real shamans' (any more than I do priests or gods) so I am not sure how their 'experiences' could be germaine to what happens in the game.

Given that the creator of the world was practicing shamanism and included his personal experiences in the game's approach to shamanism, I would say that these experiences have a high degree of relevance (to avoid writing a weird version of Germany).

 

29 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

They certainly don't get lost in the 'spirit world' or eaten by 'spirits'.

Instead, they can end up in psychosis or coma, at least as far as materialists observing them are concerned, which may be attributed to their use of psychoactive and poisonous substances.

 

29 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

But what's the mechanics involved?

In case of doubt, undergo the steps of "Becoming an Initiate" pp.274f., adapted to the entity. At least those before the POW sacrifice - replace those with the acceptance of taboos.

 

29 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Ultimately though, I don't really want to play a 'decker' scenario (i.e. where one player does lots of stuff and the others twiddle their thumbs). 

That's my main worry with a party with only few people able to discorporate, too. At the very least, you will have to deal with a split party.

[PhilHibbs]

33 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

🤔Not to be insulting, but I don't believe in 'real shamans' (any more than I do priests or gods) so I am not sure how their 'experiences' could be germaine to what happens in the game. They certainly don't get lost in the 'spirit world' or eaten by 'spirits'. It's got no more baring on the game then pagan or Christian rituals do on theistic characters. Trying to base it too closely on real world religion would just feel like appropriation to me, if I were to try and run it.  

In a game world written by a practicing real-world shaman, don't dismiss real-world shamanism as an influence on said game world.

[Tywyll]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Given that the creator of the world was practicing shamanism and included his personal experiences in the game's approach to shamanism, I would say that these experiences have a high degree of relevance (to avoid writing a weird version of Germany).

Yeah, I know he believed in that. Gygax was a fervent Christian. Doesn't mean I'm going to take his view of hell or paladin abilities as any kind of truth. 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Instead, they can end up in psychosis or coma, at least as far as materialists observing them are concerned, which may be attributed to their use of psychoactive and poisonous substances.

Yeah, because those things are real. When a shaman can discorporate or manifest spirits, I'm interested. Otherwise, we are talking fantasy. 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

In case of doubt, undergo the steps of "Becoming an Initiate" pp.274f., adapted to the entity. At least those before the POW sacrifice - replace those with the acceptance of taboos.

That might be workable. 

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

That's my main worry with a party with only few people able to discorporate, too. At the very least, you will have to deal with a split party.

It's very poor game design...has been since Shadowrun!

[Tywyll]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In a game world written by a practicing real-world shaman, don't dismiss real-world shamanism as an influence on said game world.

I'm happy to accept real world shamanistic practices and culture as an influence on the in game culture and tribal behaviour.

Their beliefs, on the other hand, aren't relevant afaiac because their spiritual beliefs are not reflected in fantasy world make believe. They don't dictate the game mechanics we are using. 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Not to be insulting, but I don't believe in 'real shamans' (any more than I do priests or gods) so I am not sure how their 'experiences' could be germaine to what happens in the game.

Fortunately belief and reading ability don't have to be related. You just have to read books or look at youtube.

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Trying to base it too closely on real world religion

Shamanism isn't a religion, it's a set of techniques that allow practitioners to access "the spirit world". Animism is the belief that everything has a spirit. It's quite possible to practice shamanism and believe it's all in you head and not be an animist. RuneQuest's spirit world and shamanism rules didn't just spontaneously create themselves, much is based on real world shamanism but transferred to the fantasy world of Glorantha. Real world shamanism has everything to do with Gloranthan shamanism whether you believe in anything or not. Just as the cults and god are related to real world gods and practices of the ancient world. None of this has come from nowhere.

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Their beliefs, on the other hand, aren't relevant afaiac because their spiritual beliefs are not reflected in fantasy world make believe. They don't dictate the game mechanics we are using. 

Because shamanism isn't a belief, but a practice, it does influence the game mechanics we use, as that's where they've come from.

If I want to look at how a shaman in my game has to interact with a greater entity, I don't start with looking at the mechanics, I go and look at how shaman deal with them in this world and use that as a model. I don't have to believe it happened i just have to look or read.

There's an excellent description of a two day ceremony where a shaman travels to the ninth heaven to meet a being who could be the Horned Man, excellent material for a shamanic adventure to gain a new ability. 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/sha/sis/sis10.htm go down to the Altaians section

[gochie]

42 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately belief and reading ability don't have to be related. You just have to read books or look at youtube.

Shamanism isn't a religion, it's a set of techniques that allow practitioners to access "the spirit world". Animism is the belief that everything has a spirit. It's quite possible to practice shamanism and believe it's all in you head and not be an animist. RuneQuest's spirit world and shamanism rules didn't just spontaneously create themselves, much is based on real world shamanism but transferred to the fantasy world of Glorantha. Real world shamanism has everything to do with Gloranthan shamanism whether you believe in anything or not. Just as the cults and god are related to real world gods and practices of the ancient world. None of this has come from nowhere.

Because shamanism isn't a belief, but a practice, it does influence the game mechanics we use, as that's where they've come from.

If I want to look at how a shaman in my game has to interact with a greater entity, I don't start with looking at the mechanics, I go and look at how shaman deal with them in this world and use that as a model. I don't have to believe it happened i just have to look or read.

There's an excellent description of a two day ceremony where a shaman travels to the ninth heaven to meet a being who could be the Horned Man, excellent material for a shamanic adventure to gain a new ability. 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/sha/sis/sis10.htm go down to the Altaians section

Sure, it's good fiction that we could use, but we could also come up with similar material ourselves with the general knowledge we have of fantasy shamanism. 

[David Scott]

Here's a simple example of getting a new shamanic ability. I've just given the other players discorporation to make it easy, but the ability of discorporate other certainly exists - remember discorporate is a meditation roll and costs a rune point. Another version would let the target provide the rune point or POW point. There's also the Shamanic ability of take others with you.

Bregtha is an Orlanthi shaman (or Kolati) of the Ernaldori Clan. Kolat is a spirit cult that Bregtha worships. He is going to the Middle Air so Kolat himself will dismember him, throwing his spirit to the Seven Winds so he can be remade.

He travels from his village with his six supporters (assistant shaman) and a small group of clans folk, up to the clan boundary on the Little Starfire Ridges. It’s Clayday, Movement Week of Storm Season. A day when the Moon is dark and Bregtha knows it won’t be able to send spirits against him in the Middle Air. His six supporters clear the ground of loose wood and windblown leaves and each makes a spiral of pebbles around themselves to define the sacred ground (Sanctify 2). The clans folk stand and sit around the central group, they’ve invited Mahome into the circle to keep them warm, with a small fire burning in the east. Bregtha stands in the middle and as the sun sets everyone the worship ceremony begins with the chant of the Rising Wind. The six supporters begin the sacred hand dance of the Ram Clouds at Night (both part of ritual practice). At about 11pm the supporters start to change the hand dance to that of the Flying Rams (discorporation ritual starts)  and the chant slowly changes from the Rising Wind to the Rising Storm. Just before midnight( 5 hours later), thick clouds have started to gather overhead (A few points of Cloud Call plus Extension 1 - it’s storm season so not a problem). Bregtha in turn calls each of his supporters forward and names them one by one:

Hhu Ho, friend, bring your winds and guide us,

Tular Narnei, bring your cold and crispness,

Uuuh Hu, bring your weather and confusion,

Seleran, shield us from harm,

Veren Vu, defend us,

Zolan Zubar, fighter of the Six foes, never leave us.

At midnight, the six complete their discorporation ritual and make their Meditation roll including a 40% ritual practice bonus (making the skill at least 60% rolling 19, 40, 97, 26, 01, 51) and spend a rune point each to discorporate.

Uuuh Hu fails to discorporate, but Veren Vu criticals and reaches back into the Middle World and yanks their spirit through. Simultaneously all cast Extension 2 (Using their Air rune which is at least 80% rolling 30, 34, 45, 53, 56, 71). Bregtha Discorporates (spending 5mps to begin an extended discorporation and rolls a D6 for his initial duration getting 6 hours).

In the spirit world everyone mounts up on Bregtha’s Ram spirits. All begin to fly up heading for the Middle Air inside the huge spiral vortex of the storm, the air is purple, blue and grey with lighting arcing across sky. The GM calls for an Air rune roll for the supporters to stay with their assigned Ram spirit (27, 21, 33, 12, 04, 48). As their destination is clear (the Middle Air), the GM says it will take D3 hours to reach the frontier, rolling a 2. Each hour in the inner spirit world, the group must roll highest POW x3, Bregtha’s is 19, 57% or less rolling 34, 36, so no encounters.

At the frontier Bregtha’s asks the Rams to start the circling Dance of Supplication and after half an hour of intricate flying and chanting by the group (both part of ritual practice), they attempt to enter the Middle Air (Bregtha’s Spirit travel is 90% rolling 86). The rolling clouds open slightly and they fly in. The Middle Air is a huge place, But Kolat lives at the centre, GM says it will take D3 hours to reach the Centre rolling a 1. There is no encounter roll needed as this is not the Inner World anymore. Kolat is a unique spirit so -50% change to find it, but +50% as he lives in an appropriate Spirit Place. Bregtha needs to make a spirit travel roll at -10% as the group are one step away from the Inner World, but no spirit rarity modifier, rolling 89. Needing 80% Bregtha fails to find Kolat. His supporters have only about 40% spirit travel, but each attempts to find Kolat, adding an hour for each search. Hhu Ho rolls 66%, Tular Narnei rolls 28 and locates Kolat after a total of 5 hours.

Kolat is a huge storm, the eye of the storm is an eye. Kolat understands what Bregtha is here for and his wind furies tear him to sheds in a flash. As his dismembered parts spiral around the sky, they see a piece of his spirit slip away lost forever into the eye of the storm as Kolat takes what is now his as part of the bargain (two POW). His supporters must now gather all his parts and they bind him together with wind spirits. He doesn’t move and seems dead.

The supporters must make their way back without this help. They head back to towards the frontier. The GM does not forgo the spirit travel rolls as this furthers the story (page 375). After an hour Hhu Ho makes a spirit travel roll at -10% to locate the way back rolling 96. Six hours have now passed and although Bregtha seems dead, he must still spend 1mp to remain discorporate and roll a D6 getting 4 extra hours. After another hour Tular Narnei makes a spirit travel roll at -10% to locate the way back rolling 88, after another hour Uuuh Hu makes a spirit travel roll at -10% to locate the way back rolling 51, after another hour Seleran makes a spirit travel roll at -10% to locate the way back rolling 40, after another hour Veren Vu makes a spirit travel roll at -10% to locate the way back rolling 18, success. Four hours are up, Bregtha’s body vanishes, his cloud Rams vanish and the six supporters fall through the frontier into the Inner spirit World. They must wait until the Extension expires (24 hours but 10 hours have passed already). The GM calls for an Air rune controlled descent, each rolls 68, 27, 70, 54, 94, 26. All begin to fly except Veren Vu who is unable to regain control. The decent is 2 hours and the GM allows Veren Vu another roll after an hour rolling 63. They land back in the circle on the Little Starfire Ridges. They are still discorporate and meet Bregtha’s fetch, a particularly large light grey ram. Bregtha is lying dead in the centre of the circle and unable to cast Dispel Magic on them to return them. At Midday they return, exhausted. All six roll their worship (Kolat) with a +50% bonus for meeting Kolat. rolling 40, 02, 63, 50, 49, 10, receiving all their rune points back.

At 5am the following night, those watching Bregtha’s dead body are rewarded when he returns from the dead (self-resurrection 3), a day after Kolat dismembered him.

(likely a few errors in this, I did it quick).

[Tywyll]

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately belief and reading ability don't have to be related. You just have to read books or look at youtube.

Sure...if I wanted to do homework to fill in the gaps of the game system I'm trying to use, I could do that. But since I see no value in those experiences as it relates to playing a game, I could just as easily read the history of WW2 or a cook book. 

I shouldn't have to try and 'make it up'. The mechanics should be there if it is part of the game, or the system shouldn't include it (wait for our Shaman supplement!). 

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

Shamanism isn't a religion, it's a set of techniques that allow practitioners to access "the spirit world". Animism is the belief that everything has a spirit. It's quite possible to practice shamanism and believe it's all in you head and not be an animist. RuneQuest's spirit world and shamanism rules didn't just spontaneously create themselves, much is based on real world shamanism but transferred to the fantasy world of Glorantha. Real world shamanism has everything to do with Gloranthan shamanism whether you believe in anything or not. Just as the cults and god are related to real world gods and practices of the ancient world. None of this has come from nowhere.

But inspiration or not, none of that actually dictates the rules we use. Humans don't have POW that they sacrifice to gain the ability to throw lightning bolts...it's a game mechanic. I want the game mechanic. I don't care what the writer's inspirations were or their beliefs. 

I also don't agree that real shamanism is as you describe, but that's a different topic for another discussion. 

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

Because shamanism isn't a belief, but a practice,

That involves interacting with one's beliefs (i.e. that there is a spirit world, that there are spirits, etc). That is traditional shamanism. 

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

it does influence the game mechanics we use, as that's where they've come from.

If I want to look at how a shaman in my game has to interact with a greater entity, I don't start with looking at the mechanics, I go and look at how shaman deal with them in this world and use that as a model. I don't have to believe it happened i just have to look or read.

That's great that that's how you do it. I and my players are playing a game however and we want the rules that govern those interactions. If its strictly roleplaying, that's fine (though why have social skills?). If there is a standard format for those interactions, then that is also fine but it needs to be spelled out. Essentially what I am getting at is there is a hole in the game system that shouldn't be there. Whether we plug it with something or not is us to us, but I'm not going to try and plug it with someone's belief that they had an out of body experience unless it somehow comes with mechanical connections attached. 

Battle Magic has no analogue in historic inspiration, yet it works just fine. Characters are ridiculously fragile compared to real world trauma, but that works okay too. The writers can use whatever inspiration they want, but none of that maps directly to game mechanics except as inspiration. Even if I believed in gods or spirits, I wouldn't expect the game mechanics to reflect my beliefs about how those things work (because that would mean we are playing a world devoid of flashy magic and monsters and that's boring). 

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

There's an excellent description of a two day ceremony where a shaman travels to the ninth heaven to meet a being who could be the Horned Man, excellent material for a shamanic adventure to gain a new ability. 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/sha/sis/sis10.htm go down to the Altaians section

So what skill does he roll against when he gets there?